Trading Panarin?

[BrooksBurner]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

No. It's not him. It's the coach. 

 

There are 2 players out of 20+ who are firing on all cylinders most of the year... Chytil and Fox. Every other player has had fits and starts.That's a direct reflection of the coach. 

 

And even now, Panarin is still a P/G player. 

 

I don't do anything to this roster until GG is gone. 

I’m with you there. If the coach ain’t the ticket, no point in going for it. For me that includes giving up Kravtsov or anyone else in rental trades. I’m under no delusion that Drury agrees with this though, so…buckle up.

[Ozzy]

I still say we go for it with what we've got. 

 

We'll see what's up by the TDL, but this team, when it plays it's "formula", is not going very far.  I think Gallant is done if and when this season falls on it's face.  The next coach needs to instill a system, and a damn good one.

 

This team has everything it needs, but it looks like were using a hammer for surgery sometimes......all the tools, just using them improperly

[RangersIn7]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I still say we go for it with what we've got. 

 

We'll see what's up by the TDL, but this team, when it plays it's "formula", is not going very far.  I think Gallant is done if and when this season falls on it's face.  The next coach needs to instill a system, and a damn good one.

 

This team has everything it needs, but it looks like were using a hammer for surgery sometimes......all the tools, just using them improperly

Yeah

 

Lack of structure/system, and issues with deployment are the problem IMO.

 

By in large, I think the pieces are present

[Pete]

13 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I still say we go for it with what we've got. 

 

We'll see what's up by the TDL, but this team, when it plays it's "formula", is not going very far.  I think Gallant is done if and when this season falls on it's face.  The next coach needs to instill a system, and a damn good one.

 

This team has everything it needs, but it looks like were using a hammer for surgery sometimes......all the tools, just using them improperly

 

2 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah

 

Lack of structure/system, and issues with deployment are the problem IMO.

 

By in large, I think the pieces are present

And we say system, I don't mean draconian rigid defensive systems that stifle offense a la Trotz. 

 

I mean a simple "When the puck is here, you go there" in the defensive and neutral zones... I'd settle for that at this point because they don't even have this. 

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

 

And we say system, I don't mean draconian rigid defensive systems that stifle offense a la Trotz. 

 

I mean a simple "When the puck is here, you go there" in the defensive and neutral zones... I'd settle for that at this point because they don't even have this. 

 

You know, you called this back when we hired Gallant.  I can't find the post, but I remember it was something to the effect of Grandpa G starts fast, and somehow his shit wears thin really quickly and he finds the door.   I think it's pretty glaring as to what and why nowadays.

 

It's not Panarin...It's not Zibby or even Trouba or Kreider....Those guys didn't forget how to score or play.

 

Something's up in that room, and I think it's ass is showing.  I think Drury is nuts if he sends good talent talent packing for a high priced rental.  Kane being unable to play may have just been a blessing in disguise.

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

And we say system, I don't mean draconian rigid defensive systems that stifle offense a la Trotz. 

 

I mean a simple "When the puck is here, you go there" in the defensive and neutral zones... I'd settle for that at this point because they don't even have this. 

 

Misconception.

 

During his 4 year Capitals tenure, the Caps were 4th in GF/GP (also 2nd in GA/GP over that span). Year to year GF rankings: 7th, 2nd, 3rd, 9th. Ovechkin was still Ovechkin. Backstrom was still Backstrom. Kuznetsov was essentially a rookie at 22 during Trotz' first year and he had no problems developing offensively. TJ Oshie produced career highs. I don't think I need to go on here. If there's talent, they can and have thrived under Trotz. Just because his system can be boring with a talentless team like the Islanders and still produce wins, doesn't mean it stifles talent. It just means it's a great system.

 

 

[Ozzy]

I still want Quenneville.  I don't give a rat's ass about all the bullshit behind it.  Dude can coach and win....big!  That's my guy!

 

I know it'll probably never happen, but he's gonna come back one day....just like Kane and all his bullshit.

[Pete]

40 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

 

Misconception.

 

During his 4 year Capitals tenure, the Caps were 4th in GF/GP (also 2nd in GA/GP over that span). Year to year GF rankings: 7th, 2nd, 3rd, 9th. Ovechkin was still Ovechkin. Backstrom was still Backstrom. Kuznetsov was essentially a rookie at 22 during Trotz' first year and he had no problems developing offensively. TJ Oshie produced career highs. I don't think I need to go on here. If there's talent, they can and have thrived under Trotz. Just because his system can be boring with a talentless team like the Islanders and still produce wins, doesn't mean it stifles talent. It just means it's a great system.

 

 

It's not a misconception. There are players who's skills transcend the system. You're talking about a team with a generational player about to break the all time goal scoring record, plus whatever else thay have in Backstorm , Kuz, Carlson.

 

Then, Barzal had toruble. Now he's on pace for 70 pts.

 

And he's coached 3 teams, 2 had trouble scoring.

 

That's not the point though, so I don't want to derail the thread on a Trotz debate.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

31 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

I still want Quenneville.  I don't give a rat's ass about all the bullshit behind it.  Dude can coach and win....big!  That's my guy!

 

I know it'll probably never happen, but he's gonna come back one day....just like Kane and all his bullshit.

That’s a hard sell right there.

 

Unless I’m mistaken, we don’t fully know exactly what him and that organization knew and exactly when they knew it.

 

Obviously, he knew of the abuse allegations and didn’t come forward. But surely others knew as well. It was totally botched top to bottom. 
 

There were other allegations with that guy in his previous job. Did Chicago vet him properly? Did they know? Did they ignore it? Or was it unknown to them? 

 

Personally I think he’ll get another look somewhere… but it’s possible he doesn’t. 

[RangersIn7]

54 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

And we say system, I don't mean draconian rigid defensive systems that stifle offense a la Trotz. 

 

I mean a simple "When the puck is here, you go there" in the defensive and neutral zones... I'd settle for that at this point because they don't even have this. 

Yup.

 

Its the lack of basic structure that causes their inconsistency IMO. And you see teams that have that, regardless of roster talent, tend to be pretty damn consistent. 

[Ozzy]

24 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

That’s a hard sell right there.

 

Unless I’m mistaken, we don’t fully know exactly what him and that organization knew and exactly when they knew it.

 

Obviously, he knew of the abuse allegations and didn’t come forward. But surely others knew as well. It was totally botched top to bottom. 
 

There were other allegations with that guy in his previous job. Did Chicago vet him properly? Did they know? Did they ignore it? Or was it unknown to them? 

 

Personally I think he’ll get another look somewhere… but it’s possible he doesn’t. 

 

I'm going on him being and NHL coach, 7.  I never got into the whole "what happened" and why.  I think the guy is a great NHL coach and could win a cup in the NHL again. 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

It's not a misconception. There are players who's skills transcend the system. You're talking about a team with a generational player about to break the all time goal scoring record, plus whatever else thay have in Backstorm , Kuz, Carlson.

 

Then, Barzal had toruble. Now he's on pace for 70 pts.

 

The Rangers are as talented and maybe more collectively talented than those Capitals teams. There are a lot of parallels.

 

Zibanejad:Ovechkin

Panarin:Backstrom

Kreider:Kuz

Fox:Carlson

Chytil:Oshie

Kakko:Burakovsky

Shesterkin:Holtby

Miller:Mike Green

 

I mean you can go down the lineup and kind of go tit for tat here. And no, I'm not saying Zibanejad is at Ovechkin's level or Chytil is at Oshie's level (yet), but Backstrom wasn't Panarin, Carlson wasn't Fox, and Holtby wasn't Shesterkin either.

 

 

[Pete]

37 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

 

The Rangers are as talented and maybe more collectively talented than those Capitals teams. There are a lot of parallels.

 

Zibanejad:Ovechkin

Panarin:Backstrom

Kreider:Kuz

Fox:Carlson

Chytil:Oshie

Kakko:Burakovsky

Shesterkin:Holtby

Miller:Mike Green

 

I mean you can go down the lineup and kind of go tit for tat here. And no, I'm not saying Zibanejad is at Ovechkin's level or Chytil is at Oshie's level (yet), but Backstrom wasn't Panarin, Carlson wasn't Fox, and Holtby wasn't Shesterkin either.

 

 

Let's just say I don't agree, but it's also not the point.

[BrooksBurner]

9 minutes ago, Pete said:

Let's just say I don't agree, but it's also not the point.

It is the entire point though. Stifled offense isn’t finishing 4th in GF over a 4 year span. The data simply disagrees with your assertion.

Anyway, it’s off topic now and I’ll get back to Panarin. It is interesting that even with Strome last year, Panarin wasn’t quite the same in year 1 with GG as coach. In year 2 and without Strome he’s even worse. It’s like he’s been railroaded by a double whammy. It was easier to give him a pass on not playing perfect hockey when he was still producing and pacing 100+ points. Not so much anymore when he’s pacing 85. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to give Quinn credit or not for Panarin’s seasons under him. I don’t want to. Quinn stunk. But maybe I have to.

Edited January 26, 2023 by rmc51

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

It is the entire point though. Stifled offense isn’t finishing 4th in GF over a 4 year span. The data simply disagrees with your assertion.

Anyway, it’s off topic now and I’ll get back to Panarin. It is interesting that even with Strome last year, Panarin wasn’t quite the same in year 1 with GG as coach. In year 2 and without Strome he’s even worse. It’s like he’s been railroaded by a double whammy. It was easier to give him a pass on not playing perfect hockey when he was still producing and pacing 100+ points. Not so much anymore when he’s pacing 85. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to give Quinn credit or not for Panarin’s seasons under him. I don’t want to. Quinn stunk. But maybe I have to.

That might be your point, but it's not mine. you got hung up on Trotz mention because he's your guy. I'm a huge Torts guy, but I wouldn't want him either.

 

I just want a guy who has a plan because GG doesn't have one.

 

And yea, GG is THE problem.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Pete

[Valriera]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

That might be your point, but it's not mine. you got hung up on Trotz mention because he's your guy. I'm a huge Torts guy, but I wouldn't want him either.

 

I just want a guy who has a plan because GG doesn't have one.

 

And yea, GG is THE problem.

Lol I love it ~ I'm pulling it into a different thread 

[Jdog99]

Gd...how did we miss out on montgomery...may be mistaken but i recall him being an option even before we hired quinn?   Team could be firing on all cylinders under him.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Jdog99 said:

Gd...how did we miss out on montgomery...may be mistaken but i recall him being an option even before we hired quinn?   Team could be firing on all cylinders under him.

Or Cassidy. 

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Jdog99 said:

Gd...how did we miss out on montgomery...may be mistaken but i recall him being an option even before we hired quinn?   Team could be firing on all cylinders under him.

 

They wanted Montgomery. He rejected their offer and signed with Dallas instead. Then they turned to Quinn.

 

https://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2018/5/1/17308974/brooks-reporting-rangers-are-impressed-with-jim-montgomery-as-head-coaching-candidate-nhl-denver

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

without reading the past couple of pages....are we really still talking about wanting to trade Panarin? 

 

The guy who even when not his best is still over point per game pace, leading scorer on the team Panarin? Sorry he's not as good as Connor McDavid I guess that means he sucks.

 

his $11.5 mil cap hit will be fine, especially when after next season the cap is projected to explode. It's as laughable to discuss getting rid of Panarin now as it was in the offseason when we had nothing to talk about

 

 

[Phil]

I don't think they are moving on any time soon, but I also don't think it's laughable to discuss the idea. Honestly, they may need to look at it after next season, because that's when the cap crunch really kicks in and Drury will be completely tied up.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

I'll say what I said in the offseason

 

ignoring the fact that he's the best winger we've had on this team in a long time, there's nothing you can get to replace him. Quantity doesn't equal quality. 299 points in 234 games as a ranger. that rate over an 82 game season is over 104 points. You're not just finding that in a trade. No team is going to give up their 100 point average guy in a 1 for 1 unless there are some crazy mitigating circumstances.

 

In a deal for him, you get 1 good player (not nearly as good), a young player/prospect that may or may not amount to anything special, and a draft pick that probably doesn't have that high of a chance of even making the NHL let alone being an impact player

 

He's a focal point of this team. He could be on a real cold-streak, and still, every team we play against gameplans around trying to stop him. Not even worth entertaining the thought as far as I'm concerned 

 

 

 

[Br4d]

The Rangers stickhandling and passing is exceptional right now and Panarin is a big part of that.

 

If anything we have too many guys proficient in making the accurate long pass and not enough who want to be like Kreider and get the breakaway that ensues.

 

Seriously, I have been tremendously impressed with the Rangers puck movement all year long.  They were good last year but they pushed it to a new level this year.  Now if somebody would just shoot the damn puck we might go deep in the playoffs again.

[Phil]

29 minutes ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

I'll say what I said in the offseason

 

ignoring the fact that he's the best winger we've had on this team in a long time, there's nothing you can get to replace him. Quantity doesn't equal quality. 299 points in 234 games as a ranger. that rate over an 82 game season is over 104 points. You're not just finding that in a trade. No team is going to give up their 100 point average guy in a 1 for 1 unless there are some crazy mitigating circumstances.

 

In a deal for him, you get 1 good player (not nearly as good), a young player/prospect that may or may not amount to anything special, and a draft pick that probably doesn't have that high of a chance of even making the NHL let alone being an impact player

 

He's a focal point of this team. He could be on a real cold-streak, and still, every team we play against gameplans around trying to stop him. Not even worth entertaining the thought as far as I'm concerned

 

Statistically, no, but Tkachuk for Huberdeau proved this isn't actually a universal truth. You just need planets to align.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

17 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Statistically, no, but Tkachuk for Huberdeau proved this isn't actually a universal truth. You just need planets to align.

there will always be exceptions. Speaking of which, where are florida now? Aside from McDavid or Matthews saying they want out and will only accept a trade to the Rangers and we have to give up Panarin to do it, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a deal that made sense or that any other team would entertain/present us with