Trading Panarin?

[cupalife]

Yes but responsible people take on a mortgage they can afford.  Not one where they can't afford furniture or to pay their other bills.  Comparing Panarin to 15 other Rangers is ridiculous.  Connor McDavid is not a power play specialist and little else.   Nathan McKinnon same.  Artemi Panarin is paid and relied upon to be a difference maker all the time.  Like I said 5 on 5 he leaves a lot to be desired.  

[Pete]

24 minutes ago, cupalife said:

Yes but responsible people take on a mortgage they can afford.  Not one where they can't afford furniture or to pay their other bills.  Comparing Panarin to 15 other Rangers is ridiculous.  Connor McDavid is not a power play specialist and little else.   Nathan McKinnon same.  Artemi Panarin is paid and relied upon to be a difference maker all the time.  Like I said 5 on 5 he leaves a lot to be desired.  

Complaining about the team's best player putting up 100 plus points seems equally ridiculous. 

[Albatrosss]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Complaining about the team's best player putting up 100 plus points seems equally ridiculous. 

if there was no salary cap

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, CCCP said:

if there was no salary cap

We've been over this. He's the highest paid LW and the highest scoring LW since he signed his deal. He isn't the problem. 

 

When you have players making top dollar who DON'T produce, that's the problem. I'd argue young players on ELC or bridge contracts giving you next to nothing is a bigger problem.

[Albatrosss]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

We've been over this. He's the highest paid LW and the highest scoring LW since he signed his deal. He isn't the problem. 

 

When you have players making top dollar who DON'T produce, that's the problem. I'd argue young players on ELC or bridge contracts giving you next to nothing is a bigger problem.

their contracts are not the reason our bottom 6 sucks ass.  

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, CCCP said:

their contracts are not the reason our bottom 6 sucks ass.  

If they were giving you anything our bottom six wouldn't suck ass and no one would be complaining about it. 

[Albatrosss]

9 minutes ago, Pete said:

If they were giving you anything our bottom six wouldn't suck ass and no one would be complaining about it. 

they're giving you what ELC and bridge contracts should be giving you.  bottom 6 still sucks.  Every winning team's bottom 6 has to give you a goal here and there.  Ours are totally inept.  And we cant even upgrade them because of the behemoth contracts the team carries. 

 

[Pete]

Just now, CCCP said:

they're giving you what ELC and bridge contracts should be giving you.  bottom 6 still sucks.  Every winning team's bottom 6 has to give you a goal here and there.  Ours are totally inept.  And we cant even upgrade them because of the behemoth contracts the team carries. 

 

That has nothing to do with how much number 10 gets paid. 

 

Every Cup winner has people producing above what they're getting paid. Rangers don't, but that doesn't mean you crap on the people who are producing according to their paycheck, which he is. 

[Albatrosss]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

That has nothing to do with how much number 10 gets paid. 

 

Every Cup winner has people producing above what they're getting paid. Rangers don't, but that doesn't mean you crap on the people who are producing according to their paycheck, which he is. 

im crapping not on their paycheck but on their cap hit.  we cant upgrade our D, we cant upgrade our 6 bottom six.  The only solution is to hire Trotz and play defense first hockey and see if thats our formula for success.  You and i agree that the team got to where it did last season by relying on Igor and having lots of luck along the way.  The team this year is the same as it was last, so i dont have much enthusiasm that we'll do any better this season.  I think the reason for the team not being able to upgrade their weaknesses are these mammoth contracts.  

[cupalife]

To only judge a player based on points is purposely avoiding an actual hockey conversation.   There is so much more going on.  Panarin is a -8 right now.  He has 19 points in 14 games.  8 of which are even strength points.  So that means he been on the ice for at least 16 even strength goals against in 14 games.  Obviously there are factors to +/- that encompass more than 1 player but to be ok with Panarin's line giving up more than a goal a game is having pretty low expectations for a guy paid what's he's paid.   

 

You think he's paid accordingly which isn't really the argument.  I think somebody else would pay him close to what he gets, but that doesn't make it smart and it doesn't mean I want my team paying a guy like him that kind of cap hit.   My view is you can't win a cup when paying a baby shit soft east west winger 1/8th of your cap.  Sure he may score 100 points while being on ice for 200 against.  It's not like it's hard to examine what wins Stanley Cups and the last thing you build upon is your wings. 

[Pete]

7 hours ago, cupalife said:

To only judge a player based on points is purposely avoiding an actual hockey conversation.   There is so much more going on.  Panarin is a -8 right now.  He has 19 points in 14 games.  8 of which are even strength points.  So that means he been on the ice for at least 16 even strength goals against in 14 games.  Obviously there are factors to +/- that encompass more than 1 player but to be ok with Panarin's line giving up more than a goal a game is having pretty low expectations for a guy paid what's he's paid.   

 

You think he's paid accordingly which isn't really the argument.  I think somebody else would pay him close to what he gets, but that doesn't make it smart and it doesn't mean I want my team paying a guy like him that kind of cap hit.   My view is you can't win a cup when paying a baby shit soft east west winger 1/8th of your cap.  Sure he may score 100 points while being on ice for 200 against.  It's not like it's hard to examine what wins Stanley Cups and the last thing you build upon is your wings. 

This guy doesn't agree. 

 

Panarin also is at a 65%CF and a 92 PDO, so seems to me he's been mostly unlucky in terms of pucks going in while his line is out there. 

 

For a guy with 268 points in 200 games as a Ranger and is a career +126, it doesn't seem like this is a wise sword to fall on. 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Pete

[cupalife]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

This guy doesn't agree. 

 

Panarin also is at a 65%CF and a 92 PDO, so seems to me he's been mostly unlucky in terms of pucks going in while his line is out there. 

 

For a guy with 268 points in 200 games as a Ranger and is a career +126, it doesn't seem like this is a wise sword to fall on. 

 

Kane is the only outlier in pretty much the history of the league.  Yet he had Toews and Sharp down the middle.  Seabrook, Keith, Buff on defense.  His winning was also done before he took up the massive cap hit.  So awful comparison.  Panarin's cap hit is the issue here.

 

Again paying a wing in Free agency $11.5M a year is just awful cap management especially when this team has forever been awful at center.  You yourself complain about their defenseman, lack of 5 on 5 scoring, depth, etc. and yet you are unable to see the point here?  Every dollar spent on one holehas an immediate effect on the money that can be spent to fill other holes.  You say it's bad luck that his line keeps getting scored on.  I can post to his lazy play, 2 minute shifts, and high risk passes that result in a fair amount of goals against.  

 

Again if I'm paying $11.5M for a player it is not Artemi Panarin.  It's a center or a defenseman, end of story. 

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, cupalife said:

Kane is the only outlier in pretty much the history of the league.  Yet he had Toews and Sharp down the middle.  Seabrook, Keith, Buff on defense.  His winning was also done before he took up the massive cap hit.  So awful comparison.  Panarin's cap hit is the issue here.

OK, and we have Zib, and Kreider, and Fox...You calling it an awful comparison doesn't make it one. What makes Panarin's cap hit the issue? You're getting production from it. A player's cap hit is only an issue if they're not producing at the rate they are being paid.

Quote

Again paying a wing in Free agency $11.5M a year is just awful cap management especially when this team has forever been awful at center.  You yourself complain about their defenseman, lack of 5 on 5 scoring, depth, etc. and yet you are unable to see the point here?  

You want to put team wide issues on one player? This team isn't awful at center. Zib is pretty much elite when he's "on" and Trochek has been great. I don't complain about their defensemen. I complain about the lack of team structure on D. You can't fix that with money, that's coaching.

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Every dollar spent on one holehas an immediate effect on the money that can be spent to fill other holes.  You say it's bad luck that his line keeps getting scored on.  I can post to his lazy play, 2 minute shifts, and high risk passes that result in a fair amount of goals against.  

 

Please, do so.

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Again if I'm paying $11.5M for a player it is not Artemi Panarin.  It's a center or a defenseman, end of story. 

That's certainly one POV. Doesn't make it the only one, or the right one.

[cupalife]

Of course that's one point of view.  It's my opinion.  You saying it's wrong doesn't make it wrong either.  I guess we can judge playoff performances and the performance of the team. Of course though Panarin isn't responsible for the team's performance though right?  Just that he scores points.  Points aren't everything.  All you have to do is look at his last playoffs.  He put up points and was total dog shit in every aspect of the game.  He's certainly better than his playoff performance. You're paying $11.5M for a player who does not engage in any way or form.  Then you wonder why the team as a whole follows suit.    

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, cupalife said:

Of course that's one point of view.  It's my opinion.  You saying it's wrong doesn't make it wrong either.  I guess we can judge playoff performances and the performance of the team. Of course though Panarin isn't responsible for the team's performance though right?  Just that he scores points.  Points aren't everything.  All you have to do is look at his last playoffs.  He put up points and was total dog shit in every aspect of the game.  He's certainly better than his playoff performance. You're paying $11.5M for a player who does not engage in any way or form.  Then you wonder why the team as a whole follows suit.    

I didn't say anyone was wrong, as far as I can remember. I just said it seems like an odd battle to try and fight right now, considering the other issues facing the team.

 

The guy pulls his weight. You might not like the way he goes about his business but that doesn't mean he isn't earning his paycheck. If you're looking for contracts that are out of line and the reason we can't make a move ... We're paying Trouba about $3M more than we should. I take issue with him making almost double what he should vs Panarin maybe being overpaid by a mil or so.

 

And frankly, should we be paying Kreider 6M (had a great season but last year is in the past) when we have Panarin, Lafreniere, and in hindsight Othmann looks like he doesn't belong in junior.

 

And I'd say getting nothing on the scoresheet from Kakko, Laf, Krav is far more damaging to the teams outlook and on ice product. Do you think when they signed him for $11M that they'd be getting NOTHING from guys on their ELCs or 2nd deals?

 

Again, just seems like an odd player to try and make your argument with, especially if you're making the argument that the contract was bad from the moment he signed.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Pete

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, cupalife said:

Again paying a wing in Free agency $11.5M a year is just awful cap management especially when this team has forever been awful at center.  You yourself complain about their defenseman, lack of 5 on 5 scoring, depth, etc. and yet you are unable to see the point here?  Every dollar spent on one holehas an immediate effect on the money that can be spent to fill other holes.  You say it's bad luck that his line keeps getting scored on.  I can post to his lazy play, 2 minute shifts, and high risk passes that result in a fair amount of goals against.  

An issue you might be overlooking is that the team was banking on the 1stOA, 2ndOA, 9thOA and Chytil to be regular contributors by now, if not last year or the year before.  

 

They launched their high picks (include Miller and Schneider into this equation too) into roles that require some semblance of production or physical play. These kids have taken longer than expected and are now entrenched into their NHL careers, with no way to move them to the minors (Schneider and Jones dont have to go on waivers) for them to work on their games. With them on the roster, the Rangers cant bring in anything more than scrap heap waiver wire crap via free agency. What actual asset on the team, that they are willing to move on from is bringing in a team need? 

 

If these high picks lived up to 1/2 of their hype, this isn't a discussion. The stars are pretty much doing what they should be doing. The high picks still haven't. Hopefully reassembling the kid line changes that. If they get going, things are better........ besides playing awful team D. That won't change. 

[Long live the King]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

An issue you might be overlooking is that the team was banking on the 1stOA, 2ndOA, 9thOA and Chytil to be regular contributors by now, if not last year or the year before.  

 

They launched their high picks (include Miller and Schneider into this equation too) into roles that require some semblance of production or physical play. These kids have taken longer than expected and are now entrenched into their NHL careers, with no way to move them to the minors (Schneider and Jones dont have to go on waivers) for them to work on their games. With them on the roster, the Rangers cant bring in anything more than scrap heap waiver wire crap via free agency. What actual asset on the team, that they are willing to move on from is bringing in a team need? 

 

If these high picks lived up to 1/2 of their hype, this isn't a discussion. The stars are pretty much doing what they should be doing. The high picks still haven't. Hopefully reassembling the kid line changes that. If they get going, things are better........ besides playing awful team D. That won't change. 

 

Unfortunately it would still be a discussion.  Sure, everyone would like more production from Laf, Kakko, and Krav.  But for $4 million you're not replacing those guys and getting anymore production then they are giving you. 

[Keirik]

For as average as Panarin was last playoffs there is still two “truths” about him in my opinion.

 

1. He still was 4th in playoff points on our roster. All with a center that was playing so hurt that he was bringing very little.

 

2. He still is a very very big reason why even got to the playoffs. He’s not even remotely overpaid in my book. It’s nuts to me. 

[Pete]

41 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Unfortunately it would still be a discussion.  Sure, everyone would like more production from Laf, Kakko, and Krav.  But for $4 million you're not replacing those guys and getting anymore production then they are giving you. 

No...You would expect guys as those to outperform what they get paid. That's the point.

[Long live the King]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

No...You would expect guys as those to outperform what they get paid. That's the point.

 

I get that, but if you have guys making under a mill in the top six people would still complain about Bread.

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Long live the King said:

 

Unfortunately it would still be a discussion.  Sure, everyone would like more production from Laf, Kakko, and Krav.  But for $4 million you're not replacing those guys and getting anymore production then they are giving you. 

Including Chytil it's more like 6 mill. I think they absolutely could get one solid winger and backfill these guys output with other ELC's or free agents in a 6 mill gap. 

 

Also, I just expect more from top draft picks. If they were filling out their spots with role players, I think there would definitely be some complaining, but less expectation. 

[BrooksBurner]

wrong thread

Edited November 11, 2022 by rmc51

[cupalife]

The team isn't faltering because of their 20 year old kids.  Those kids were playing with Panarin and Zib for the most part.  Problem is Kakko and Laf are both completely different players than Panarin and Zib.  They are not guys who are going to feast on the rush.  They are meat and potatoes guys who are going to create their chances in the cycle game.  Kakko has been excellent this year and his play is not indicative of his point total.  Again they get 0 power play time.  

 

It's hilarious to think that this team rides or dies on the kids production.  Panarin and Zib are not producing 5 on 5 like they should be.  Panarin has 9 EV points, Zib has 7, Laf has 7. Kakko and Chytil 6

Edited November 11, 2022 by cupalife

[Keirik]

1 hour ago, cupalife said:

The team isn't faltering because of their 20 year old kids.  Those kids were playing with Panarin and Zib for the most part.  Problem is Kakko and Laf are both completely different players than Panarin and Zib.  They are not guys who are going to feast on the rush.  They are meat and potatoes guys who are going to create their chances in the cycle game.  Kakko has been excellent this year and his play is not indicative of his point total.  Again they get 0 power play time.  

 

It's hilarious to think that this team rides or dies on the kids production.  Panarin and Zib are not producing 5 on 5 like they should be.  Panarin has 9 EV points, Zib has 7, Laf has 7. Kakko and Chytil 6

This team is having struggles because the only forwards producing are Zibanejad, Panarin, Panarin, and slightly to a lesser extent Trocheck. I get your point of 5v5 but it’s not the largest issue for the top lines IF they are producing at an elite pp level. This year they’ve had a bit of a rougher time than last year on the pp. However, 3 of the 4 are basically ppg players right now or more. They are producing.

 

   However, secondary scoring is an issue from the bottom 6. There’s really nothing hilarious about pointing out that there needs to be actual results from at least 3 of the 4 guys named Laf, Chytil, Kakko, Kravtsov. The first three have no excuse to not be producing at least at some level. When they are together they get the easier matchups, they have the talent, and they have plenty of even strength chances and when together, they have a line that has the 1st overall, 2nd overall, and 21st overall pick all on the same line. 

[Pete]

It's hilarious to look at P/G players and say "we need more from them" and then get 25 points from top picks who can't stay healthy and say "kids are fine".