Trading Panarin?

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Nah. He’s not right. He just has an opinion that agrees with your opinion so it echoes with you better. If that helps you feel better about his game so be it, but it doesn’t make some sort of fact. I’ve watched Panarin take slap shots, I’ve watched him roll his wrists for wrist shots, I’ve even seem him countless times flick his wrists for silly backhand sling passes. A few times I’ve even seen him keep his feet moving. He seems to be skating just fine as long as it’s on the outside or no one near him. Once anyone gets within 5 feet, he panics and flips it somewhere else. Tom Wilson has nothing to do with anything. Weird comment. 

Meh. I've been saying he's injured since game 1 of the post season.  

 

Sure you've seen him take such shots, but he's not getting much on them and they are at inopportune times. Namely into traffic.  He doesn't wait for lanes and won't take pucks to the inside.  If  he's hurt he's hurt. He's not going to sit and he's not going to NOT  attempt any shots. He's certainly not attempting any one on one stuff or call for long passes to use his speed to get a break. 

 

To me it seems like an injured player who cant/ won't sit and suffers due to the teams need to have him in the lineup. 

 

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with calling any player a pussy. Especially when such players aren't playing playoff hockey. For Christ's sake, it's half hearted jabs. If I want to call the guy a pussy because he shoots from the perimeter instead of driving towards an open lane for a chance,  I'm calling the guy a pussy. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by The Dude

[RangersIn7]

16 hours ago, Dunny said:

Gotta clear cap for Matthews. Panarin is a 90 point Mike Hoffman. 

Lol

 

Except Mike Hoffman and 90 points don’t belong in the same sentence. 

[Keirik]

33 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

It's really weird to watch. 

 

I'm not going to sit here and pretend that teams like Tampa and Carolina are going to give him the liberties that 25 other teams might to play with his usual galaxy-brain wizardry, but he's just not taking the easy stuff. I get it to an extent - they pay him to be the guy, he wants to generate goals and chances, but...simple plays can get him there too. 

The thing is, anyone can look through game day threads that go long before the playoffs or frankly even this year where it’s been talked about over and over that Bread has a tendency to cling to the boards and stay away as soon as games amp up in intensity. He wasn’t the only one, but he’s one that is continuing to do it. He’s just gotten further and further into this. Shots are down all year, goal total is down, staying away from the middle is up, and hustle has never been his mojo in the first place so it be totality is going to stick out like a sore thumb. His counterpart is basically Kucherov. They both coast around out there, but Kuch is a bit more predatory about his play.  It’s slight so I wouldn’t exactly say it’s different levels but still. 
 

   There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging it. Not as if he’s being booed off the ice or anything, but it’s something to pay attention to. 

[Pete]

"He's not being boo'd off the ice", except "Drury needs to look at trading him".

 

The recency bias is real.

[Keirik]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

"He's not being boo'd off the ice", except "Drury needs to look at trading him".

 

The recency bias is real.

?
 

1. I didn’t say that nor do I control what others think or say. There’s also a giant difference between posting on a message board and attending games booing your own players. 

 

2. I’m sure every GM of every team is always looking at the overall picture of every player to determine who gives them the best chance to win a championship. Panarin is going nowhere. He still gets you to a point where your regular season success helps you keep home ice for these very moments even if he is being more pedestrian in those playoff moments. 

[jsm7302]

2 minutes ago, Keirik said:

?
 

1. I didn’t say that nor do I control what others think or say. There’s also a giant difference between posting on a message board and attending games booing your own players. 

 

2. I’m sure every GM of every team is always looking at the overall picture of every player to determine who gives them the best chance to win a championship. Panarin is going nowhere. He still gets you to a point where your regular season success helps you keep home ice for these very moments even if he is being more pedestrian in those playoff moments. 

Yea it is crazy to believe Fil Chytil has had more noticeable presence and effect in the playoffs. 

 

If he was an 8ish million dollar player; I buy the argument but in his salary tier, he should be carrying this team along through the playoffs and he hasn't fit the bill for this role.

[Capt]

The salary cap has made it impossible not to judge every player by their salary first and foremost.  Every team has only so much to construct their team and every dollar you pay one player is a dollar you can't use to improve your team elsewhere.  Panarin is being paid a ton of money.  Fair or unfair, there are going to be critiques of his play.  He has earned the praise he has received during the regular seasons the past couple of years.  He earned that.  The reverse in there playoffs is also true though.  He has earned the fans criticism and ire.  I think that has all been muted in large part because there maybe an injury and the team has had success.  Rick Nash's entire career is down graded by his playoff performances.  It's part of the deal like it or not.  

 

One thing is for certain and it isn't to this point after 1 season.  This team cannot afford for Panarin to turn into Rick Nash come playoff time and expect to win a championship.  

[BrooksBurner]

It's fair to say Panarin's play drops off in the playoffs in general. The guy is an assist machine in the regular season at ES, and he's done that his whole career, but his playmaking ability at ES during the playoffs takes a big hit and it shows in his stats.

 

Career regular season assists/game at ES (508 games):  .53 ~= 1 ES assist every other game.

Career playoff assists/game at ES (48 games): .25 = 1 ES assist every 4 games. Half of his regular season production.

This year's per game rates are very similar regular season vs playoffs: .56 vs .22

 

Contrast with PP assist production, where there's no dip in production:

 

Career regular season assists/game on PP (508 games):  .22

Career playoff assists/game on PP (48 games): .31

 

I think the sample sizes are large enough to dictate that this is a trend. You can expect his ES playmaking ability to only be about half as effective/productive in the playoffs as it is in the regular season. It would seem to me that the most logical theory from all of this is that roughly half of his regular season production are the result of the kinds of passes (cross ice seam) that work with some regularity against most teams, and maybe even good teams in one-off games, but not against good teams in the playoffs who he has to play in consecutive games.

 

With all of that said, I believe he's top 10 or so in the league at "getting you here". If come playoff time he produces like a mid-6er at ES, but remains a dynamite PP player, that is what it is and others with a more straight N/S game need to rise to the occasion. Does it make Panarin overpaid? Probably a little, but is it worth squabbling about being overpaid by, what, $2M? That's the premium you pay for not drafting talent like that yourself and locking them in before UFA status. Signing him was a no-brainer the day he inked the contract. It's a no-brainer today. Playoff warts and all.

[Keirik]

9 hours ago, rmc51 said:

It's fair to say Panarin's play drops off in the playoffs in general. The guy is an assist machine in the regular season at ES, and he's done that his whole career, but his playmaking ability at ES during the playoffs takes a big hit and it shows in his stats.

 

Career regular season assists/game at ES (508 games):  .53 ~= 1 ES assist every other game.

Career playoff assists/game at ES (48 games): .25 = 1 ES assist every 4 games. Half of his regular season production.

This year's per game rates are very similar regular season vs playoffs: .56 vs .22

 

Contrast with PP assist production, where there's no dip in production:

 

Career regular season assists/game on PP (508 games):  .22

Career playoff assists/game on PP (48 games): .31

 

I think the sample sizes are large enough to dictate that this is a trend. You can expect his ES playmaking ability to only be about half as effective/productive in the playoffs as it is in the regular season. It would seem to me that the most logical theory from all of this is that roughly half of his regular season production are the result of the kinds of passes (cross ice seam) that work with some regularity against most teams, and maybe even good teams in one-off games, but not against good teams in the playoffs who he has to play in consecutive games.

 

With all of that said, I believe he's top 10 or so in the league at "getting you here". If come playoff time he produces like a mid-6er at ES, but remains a dynamite PP player, that is what it is and others with a more straight N/S game need to rise to the occasion. Does it make Panarin overpaid? Probably a little, but is it worth squabbling about being overpaid by, what, $2M? That's the premium you pay for not drafting talent like that yourself and locking them in before UFA status. Signing him was a no-brainer the day he inked the contract. It's a no-brainer today. Playoff warts and all.

That’s basically what I’ve been saying. However, it would be nice to get the Bread from year one with us. That was a bit of a different animal. 
 

   I never like to specifically bring up salary because he not only probably took less to come here, but also we have been down this road many times in the past with the guys like Drury, Go,ez, and more recently Trouba. You have to pay sometimes, although the Trouba has a whole other branched off conversation to it.

 

  He is here to stay. He gets us here. Trading him sets us up for a Gaborik return which we saw before our own eyes sadly.  However, maybe the answer is a linemate that engages more in the playoffs but not regular season (Blais?). Who knows

 

   Still nothing wrong with discussing an issue we have. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Keirik

[Sharpshooter]

Panarin certainly wasn't bad this year, but I really miss 2020 Artemi. If they had that this year, who knows, they'd probably be in the Stanley Cup final right now. Watching him this year, I just don't understand why he didn't shoot as much. As we saw with the Penguins OT winner, he has a heck of a shot. I guess there were rumors that he felt more constricted in Gallant's system, but I don't know about that. He still produced otherwise. Unless he has some wrist/hand issue, I don't get it. I hate to bring up the Tom Wilson crap again, but maybe getting rag-dolled to the ice affected him in some way, maybe there's still family issues. I don't know. I'd like to wish it was just a nagging injury than those other two, but we probably won't find out until the offseason.

[Capt]

18 hours ago, Keirik said:

That’s basically what I’ve been saying. However, it would be nice to get the Bread from year one with us. That was a bit of a different animal. 
 

   I never like to specifically bring up salary because he not only probably took less to come here, but also we have been down this road many times in the past with the guys like Drury, Go,ez, and more recently Trouba. You have to pay sometimes, although the Trouba has a whole other branched off conversation to it.

 

  He is here to stay. He gets us here. Trading him sets us up for a Gaborik return which we saw before our own eyes sadly.  However, maybe the answer is a linemate that engages more in the playoffs but not regular season (Blais?). Who knows

 

   Still nothing wrong with discussing an issue we have. 

I don't know how anyone can say the Gaborik trade was bad.  Brassard, Dorsett, John Moore were all big players in our runs.  Brassard alone had a huge impact on this franchise and even to this day gave us Zib.  I'd say that trade was a net positive in the end.

[Capt]

11 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

Panarin certainly wasn't bad this year, but I really miss 2020 Artemi. If they had that this year, who knows, they'd probably be in the Stanley Cup final right now. Watching him this year, I just don't understand why he didn't shoot as much. As we saw with the Penguins OT winner, he has a heck of a shot. I guess there were rumors that he felt more constricted in Gallant's system, but I don't know about that. He still produced otherwise. Unless he has some wrist/hand issue, I don't get it. I hate to bring up the Tom Wilson crap again, but maybe getting rag-dolled to the ice affected him in some way, maybe there's still family issues. I don't know. I'd like to wish it was just a nagging injury than those other two, but we probably won't find out until the offseason.

Does it really matter if it's injury or not?  Who is 100% healthy right now.  The playoffs are always about attrition and battling through injury.  It's the toughest trophy to win in sports.  It's not like he's getting hurt going into traffic.  It is what it is.  We've seen enough in years past in games against playoff style opponents, Isles, Caps, etc that he wasn't as effective.  Who knows what it is but I'm not so sure it's an injury thing.  

[Sharpshooter]

28 minutes ago, Capt said:

Does it really matter if it's injury or not?  Who is 100% healthy right now.  The playoffs are always about attrition and battling through injury.  It's the toughest trophy to win in sports.  It's not like he's getting hurt going into traffic.  It is what it is.  We've seen enough in years past in games against playoff style opponents, Isles, Caps, etc that he wasn't as effective.  Who knows what it is but I'm not so sure it's an injury thing.  

I don't think it is either, just a possibility as to why he isn't shooting enough. The passing is definitely a mental thing. His overall playoff numbers are good. They were with Chicago and Columbus. I know different situations, but he's no slouch.

[Capt]

He looks much better tonight.  No production yet but he looks engaged

[-ERIK-]

One scrub a line he can work with but not 2 in the playoffs.

[jsm7302]

Has Vatrano played with Bread? Kid likes to shoot. Id think they could have some chemistry.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

1 hour ago, jsm7302 said:

Has Vatrano played with Bread? Kid likes to shoot. Id think they could have some chemistry.

I was thinking the same with Lafreniere early in the season. Laf loves those cross-ice setups aswell, Kakko has missed a few this post season that I think Vatrano would've scored on.

[Keirik]

15 hours ago, Capt said:

I don't know how anyone can say the Gaborik trade was bad.  Brassard, Dorsett, John Moore were all big players in our runs.  Brassard alone had a huge impact on this franchise and even to this day gave us Zib.  I'd say that trade was a net positive in the end.

I wasn’t talking about the Gaborik trade. I was talking about him returning to win a cup at our expense while he had a case to win the Conn Smythe while a lot of people had an idea that Gaby could never perform in the playoffs. 

[Capt]

4 hours ago, Keirik said:

I wasn’t talking about the Gaborik trade. I was talking about him returning to win a cup at our expense while he had a case to win the Conn Smythe while a lot of people had an idea that Gaby could never perform in the playoffs. 

Got ya.  I believed and still do that Gabby while a great scorer was always a complementary player on a championship team not the lead horse.  Same for Panarin.  If he went to a team like Gabby did the Kings and wasn't the oppositions main focus he could thrive.  

[Valriera]

On 6/8/2022 at 10:18 PM, rmc51 said:

It's fair to say Panarin's play drops off in the playoffs in general. The guy is an assist machine in the regular season at ES, and he's done that his whole career, but his playmaking ability at ES during the playoffs takes a big hit and it shows in his stats.

 

Career regular season assists/game at ES (508 games):  .53 ~= 1 ES assist every other game.

Career playoff assists/game at ES (48 games): .25 = 1 ES assist every 4 games. Half of his regular season production.

This year's per game rates are very similar regular season vs playoffs: .56 vs .22

 

Contrast with PP assist production, where there's no dip in production:

 

Career regular season assists/game on PP (508 games):  .22

Career playoff assists/game on PP (48 games): .31

 

I think the sample sizes are large enough to dictate that this is a trend. You can expect his ES playmaking ability to only be about half as effective/productive in the playoffs as it is in the regular season. It would seem to me that the most logical theory from all of this is that roughly half of his regular season production are the result of the kinds of passes (cross ice seam) that work with some regularity against most teams, and maybe even good teams in one-off games, but not against good teams in the playoffs who he has to play in consecutive games.

 

With all of that said, I believe he's top 10 or so in the league at "getting you here". If come playoff time he produces like a mid-6er at ES, but remains a dynamite PP player, that is what it is and others with a more straight N/S game need to rise to the occasion. Does it make Panarin overpaid? Probably a little, but is it worth squabbling about being overpaid by, what, $2M? That's the premium you pay for not drafting talent like that yourself and locking them in before UFA status. Signing him was a no-brainer the day he inked the contract. It's a no-brainer today. Playoff warts and all.

and thread

[Dunny]

Can't wait till he puts 4 points up against Winnipeg in October, and comes out the tunnel as the 1st star like he's King Shit. I won't forget what we're seeing, here.

[Capt]

Complete hump.

[Sharpshooter]

Should we just sticky this for the offseason? 

[Pete]

Can't wait until we trade Panarin and then struggle to be a bubble playoff team who's leading scorer is Mats Zuccarello with 56 points but at least honey badger #tough #realman #gritty

[RichieNextel305]

Keep him. He’ll drop 45 next year with Kane on his opposite wing.