Alexis Lafreniere and the Rangers Reach a Critical Point

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, Gravesy said:

And what?

You said he was meant to be a generational talent. 

I said that's not what several reports from several of what I would consider serious sources said. For example:

 

https://theathletic.com/1713841/2020/10/06/pronmans-scouting-report-why-alexis-lafreniere-is-a-top-nhl-prospect/

 

Ergo, very good. Not generational. 

The fact he hasn't been anywhere near "very good" isn't up for discussion. 

OK. Gotcha.

 

Heres the holes in your guys assessment.

 

This scout called him elite on everything but his pace. Even says one of the best Canadian players  in international play in recent memory. This scout covers ever base. Says hes elite everything but not at the McDavid level,  BUT a foundational player, a true star and a leading scorer in the league.. 

 

Lists attributes and potential of a generational talent,  but covers his ass by say he's not a sure fire generational talent.  Kinda walking the fence. Can't be wrong if hecsays both things. But he was wrong because none of this "serious " scouting is looking accurate.  

 

I'm sure there are plenty others who tote the same line. "He's great at everything, he can carry a team,  he's a guy you build your franchise around because he's so elite and will be a league leader in points...but I wouldn't go as far to say hes Crosby, but maybe..."

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

The only time he mentioned «elite» was with «elite skill and elite vision». He’s not elite their either, but that’s categories that’s not so easy to judge when a guy plays with and against players that are below his skill level.
 

Other than that I think that was a good scouting report. «If given space (which he dont get in the nhl) he CAN beat goalies from a distance. Not a good skater. All his biggest strenghts are intangibles (competes his tail off, he’s physical) and that he «can play off the puck».

Can we stop saying he's physical? Let's stop pointing to the hits stat line and assuming he's physical. 

 

He's very much not physical at all. He's a perimeter pansy and fears contact when he has or doesn't have the puck. Watch how unimpressive he is going to look if he tries to mimic Kreider infront of the net on PP1. He's not going to be able to dig in and be a force in front of the goalie. He'll be easily pushed/ guided aside. 

 

The guy also says he's a foundational building block and a league leading scorer. Year 3. 5 goals. Can't carry a 3rd line against great matchups. 

 

Generational talent... Elite player..

 

3rd line,  weak, pussy, immature, bitch is the outcome. Neither scouting reports are accurate. Handful say Generational. Handful say pretty much borderline  Generational. 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

This summation is spot on for my sentiments also. We in this to develop this kid or win a Cup because we certainly have the pieces to take a shot at the latter. I'd sell Laf tomorrow if it filled a hole on the current roster.

 

" I don't think he has the puck on his stick enough to properly evaluate them, but that's still a Lafreniere problem."

 

^^ Definitely a Laf problem. Krav has less TOI and has shown more imo; ceiling seems higher.

 

I cringed when we went to the shootout against LA last year and Laf skates by their bench after scoring holding a #1.

 

Dude should pad his resume a bit before throwing cocky signs out to the other team. 

I think he’s really just not quick enough. He doesn’t beat anyone to pucks to get control, and when he has the puck he’s not quick enough to create space to hold it. In contrast, Kakko is much quicker on his feet this year and has shown a new found ability to create some space and keep the puck on his stick to make a play. Previously Kakko was able to maintain some modicum of puck control using his size, but he wasn’t able to create space. Whatever he did in offseason training this last summer changed that.

 

When Lafreniere has had space, we’ve seen some slick passes though. That’s why i think there’s some goods still in there.

[Pete]

3 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

competes his tail off,

You see him doing this? 

[LindG1000]

2 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

I think he’s really just not quick enough. He doesn’t beat anyone to pucks to get control, and when he has the puck he’s not quick enough to create space to hold it. In contrast, Kakko is much quicker on his feet this year and has shown a new found ability to create some space and keep the puck on his stick to make a play. Previously Kakko was able to maintain some modicum of puck control using his size, but he wasn’t able to create space. Whatever he did in offseason training this last summer changed that.

 

When Lafreniere has had space, we’ve seen some slick passes though. That’s why i think there’s some goods still in there.

 

I feel like that.....that's just a fixable problem, isn't it? Maybe even one that should have been fixed already if he had a head about him?

 

His best buddy on the team is a kickass skater. As you rightly pointed out, his draft peer on the team has clearly fixed a similar issue. He has good leaders who know how to skate. 

 

It makes me wonder what's between the ears here if he didn't take the right steps during the offseason to correct something when he's surrounded by people who can help him. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

52 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

 

There hasn't been anything wrong with Lafreniere's linemates. The bulk of his TOI this year has been with Kakko, Chytil, Trocheck, and Panarin. Over 150 minutes of ice time with all of them.

Oh I didnt mean in the NHL. I was talking about the scouts watching him before that.

[BrooksBurner]

12 minutes ago, The Dude said:

OK. Gotcha.

 

Heres the holes in your guys assessment.

 

This scout called him elite on everything but his pace. Even says one of the best Canadian players  in international play in recent memory. This scout covers ever base. Says hes elite everything but not at the McDavid level,  BUT a foundational player, a true star and a leading scorer in the league.. 

 

Lists attributes and potential of a generational talent,  but covers his ass by say he's not a sure fire generational talent.  Kinda walking the fence. Can't be wrong if hecsays both things. But he was wrong because none of this "serious " scouting is looking accurate.  

 

I'm sure there are plenty others who tote the same line. "He's great at everything, he can carry a team,  he's a guy you build your franchise around because he's so elite and will be a league leader in points...but I wouldn't go as far to say hes Crosby, but maybe..."

The word generational is flipped around far too loosely anyway. The word really implies the best 1 or 2 players over the course of a 10-15 year period that become pretty much the face of hockey. Crosby and Ovechkin were it from like 2005 to 2020, with the scales being tipped toward Crosby as “the guy”. McDavid is the generational talent of the current era, and he stands alone. MacKinnon, Matthews, etc., great players of this era certainly but not generational.

[LindG1000]

Just now, rmc51 said:

The word generational is flipped around far too loosely anyway. The word really implies the best 1 or 2 players over the course of a 10-15 year period that become pretty much the face of hockey. Crosby and Ovechkin were it from like 2005 to 2020, with the scales being tipped toward Crosby as “the guy”. McDavid is the generational talent of the current era, and he stands alone. MacKinnon, Matthews, etc., great players of this era certainly but not generational.

 

I think of generational meaning either "fundamentally transforming the way the game is played, because they're so good folks either copy or adapt" or "literally indefensible/unbeatable". 

 

Lafreniere is not that player. 

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I feel like that.....that's just a fixable problem, isn't it? Maybe even one that should have been fixed already if he had a head about him?

 

His best buddy on the team is a kickass skater. As you rightly pointed out, his draft peer on the team has clearly fixed a similar issue. He has good leaders who know how to skate. 

 

It makes me wonder what's between the ears here if he didn't take the right steps during the offseason to correct something when he's surrounded by people who can help him. 

Yea it’s fixable. I don’t know what it is that takes so long. It took Kakko 4 summers since being drafted to fix it. Is it a cumulative thing  or did he have more focus this past summer after the public humiliation of being benched in the playoffs? Or was it neither and he just happened to change his training program to be more targetted to improving his quickness? I’d like to think Lafreniere can do the same. Just have no idea where his ceiling is anymore even if he does.

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I think of generational meaning either "fundamentally transforming the way the game is played, because they're so good folks either copy or adapt" or "literally indefensible/unbeatable". 

 

Lafreniere is not that player. 

Yeah. I’ve seen that too, but eventually you run out of guys changing the game. McDavid doesn’t do anything unique. His raw talent is off the charts, certainly, but what has he done that changed the game? And for Crosby, nobody has had his style of game before? Meh. There were similar players some time before him.

[jsm7302]

10 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Yeah. I’ve seen that too, but eventually you run out of guys changing the game. McDavid doesn’t do anything unique. His raw talent is off the charts, certainly, but what has he done that changed the game? And for Crosby, nobody has had his style of game before? Meh. There were similar players some time before him.

I agree with this. If we are talking fundamental changes to the game then the only generational talents I have seen are 

Sean Avery who prompted a rule change to accommodate his play as well as Trevor Zegras who pulled a Michigan in the NHL promoting the rule change convo.

 

However, the true generational talents are those who carry there teams and lead the league over there career through point totals and leadership. Crosby, Ovechkin and McNasty. Full stop.

[LindG1000]

1 minute ago, rmc51 said:

Yeah. I’ve seen that too, but eventually you run out of guys changing the game. McDavid doesn’t do anything unique. His raw talent is off the charts, certainly, but what has he done that changed the game? And for Crosby, nobody has had his style of game before? Meh. There were similar players some time before him.

 

Eh. I don't think I agree with that. McDavid is redefining the tools in the "elite center" toolkit with his skating and speed of execution. If you're going to be an elite center, you're going to work on being able to do what Connor McDavid can do at the speed Connor McDavid can do it. It's why Jack Hughes is so special, it's why Trevor Zegras is so fun to watch, and it's why Conor Bedard is getting the hype. 

 

Defenders will have to figure it out - and they will (i.e. Lidstrom redefining defense with his stickwork against the left-wing lock trap system) - but for now? Every center is going to study Connor McDavid and go from there, in the same way McDavid studied Crosby.

[jsm7302]

4 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

Eh. I don't think I agree with that. McDavid is redefining the tools in the "elite center" toolkit with his skating and speed of execution. If you're going to be an elite center, you're going to work on being able to do what Connor McDavid can do at the speed Connor McDavid can do it. It's why Jack Hughes is so special, it's why Trevor Zegras is so fun to watch, and it's why Conor Bedard is getting the hype. 

 

Defenders will have to figure it out - and they will (i.e. Lidstrom redefining defense with his stickwork against the left-wing lock trap system) - but for now? Every center is going to study Connor McDavid and go from there, in the same way McDavid studied Crosby.

Not fair. I study both and still look like a giraffe on skates. #talentless

[LindG1000]

2 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

Not fair. I study both and still look like a giraffe on skates. #talentless

 

So you should have extraordinary empathy for the Alexis Lafreniere experience.

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

Eh. I don't think I agree with that. McDavid is redefining the tools in the "elite center" toolkit with his skating and speed of execution. If you're going to be an elite center, you're going to work on being able to do what Connor McDavid can do at the speed Connor McDavid can do it. It's why Jack Hughes is so special, it's why Trevor Zegras is so fun to watch, and it's why Conor Bedard is getting the hype. 

 

Defenders will have to figure it out - and they will (i.e. Lidstrom redefining defense with his stickwork against the left-wing lock trap system) - but for now? Every center is going to study Connor McDavid and go from there, in the same way McDavid studied Crosby.

Generational by your definition seems to me it is more like a Steph Curry changing the game of basketball by training to be an absolute god behind the 3 pt line, and noone had thought of making that the absolute core part of their game. I still don’t see how McDavid fits that bill just because he has god given raw speed to match his talent.

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Generational by your definition seems to me it is more like a Steph Curry changing the game of basketball by training to be an absolute god behind the 3 pt line, and noone had thought of making that the absolute core part of their game. I still don’t see how McDavid fits that bill just because he has god given raw speed to match his talent.

I'm not super familiar with basketball, but has Steph Curry launched an absolute legion of players who are suddenly exceptional three-point shooters? 

 

Connor McDavid is spawning a whole generation of players who think it's critical to be able to do everything the game requires at ridiculously high speeds. That's a very significant change from where we were in 2011, where guys like Mike Richards and Ryan Kesler were among the best centers in the league, or even 10 years earlier where the de rigeur was "big, heavy, strong" with Centers - no doubt Lindros' influence.

 

Regardless, Lafreniere isn't that guy. He's never been touted that way, and it's unfair to hold him to that standard.

 

[Pete]

43 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Defenders will have to figure it out - and they will (i.e. Lidstrom redefining defense with his stickwork against the left-wing lock trap system) - but for now? Every center is going to study Connor McDavid and go from there, in the same way McDavid studied Crosby.

I don't think defenses will figure it out. That's why McDavid is McDavid, Sid is Sid, and Ovi is Ovi.

 

People still can't defend Ovi and and the 20 guys on the opposition bench and 18,000 people in the stands and millions on TV all know what he's going to do.

 

Even McD idolized Crosby but doesn't play anything like him.

 

I was expecting someone on MacKinnon's level from a 1OA. Maybe Patrick Kane. Now I'm hoping he isn't Pat Falloon.

[jsm7302]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I don't think defenses will figure it out. That's why McDavid is McDavid, Sid is Sid, and Ovi is Ovi.

 

People still can't defend Ovi and and the 20 guys on the opposition bench and 18,000 people in the stands and millions on TV all know what he's going to do.

 

Even McD idolized Crosby but doesn't play anything like him.

 

I was expecting someone on MacKinnon's level from a 1OA. Maybe Patrick Kane. Now I'm hoping he isn't Pat Falloon.

McDavid embarrasses Zegras with lethal spin move
https://www.thescore.com/s/24210861

[RangersIn7]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

I don't think defenses will figure it out. That's why McDavid is McDavid, Sid is Sid, and Ovi is Ovi.

 

People still can't defend Ovi and and the 20 guys on the opposition bench and 18,000 people in the stands and millions on TV all know what he's going to do.

 

Even McD idolized Crosby but doesn't play anything like him.

 

I was expecting someone on MacKinnon's level from a 1OA. Maybe Patrick Kane. Now I'm hoping he isn't Pat Falloon.

Who has the bigger regret???

 

San Jose picking Falloon in front of Niedermayer?

 

Or Ottawa taking Daigle over Pronger?

[Albatrosss]

its obvious that the game is too fast for Laf at this point.  He's taking half a sec too long to do anything on the ice.  Will he eventually catch up to the speed of the game is yet to be seen

[The Dude]

7 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I think of generational meaning either "fundamentally transforming the way the game is played, because they're so good folks either copy or adapt" or "literally indefensible/unbeatable". 

 

Lafreniere is not that player. 

I think of the term as the best (by far) of the time period the player plays in.  Guys that chase scoring records.  Dominant. Truly dominant.

[josh]

7 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I think of generational meaning either "fundamentally transforming the way the game is played, because they're so good folks either copy or adapt" or "literally indefensible/unbeatable". 

 

Lafreniere is not that player. 

He was a generational player in junior hockey, for years, regardless of your personal definition, hence why he was talked about for years before his draft.

[Albatrosss]

Just now, josh said:

He was a generational player in junior hockey, for years, regardless of your personal definition, hence why he was talked about for years before his draft.

Elite, not generational

[josh]

2 minutes ago, CCCP said:

Elite, not generational

How much he was discussed, it was certainly generational. He was talked about more than Bedard or any pick after him. He was talked about more than picks ahead of him not named Crosby, which included your Eichel, Matthews, and tall defensemen Buffalo drafts. 
 

we can pretend otherwise after the fact, but it stands true. 

[Pete]

4 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Who has the bigger regret???

 

San Jose picking Falloon in front of Niedermayer?

 

Or Ottawa taking Daigle over Pronger?

The Rangers for picking McIlrath, ever?