Mercogliano What Happens at Center?

[BrooksBurner]

7 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Or just give the role to any of Kakko, Laf, or Kravtsov.

 

From the little I've seen of Kravtsov, he loves to go to the slot area. I think he would be a tremendous fit on Panarin's line.

[Drew a Penalty]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Only Laf or Kravtsov are equipped for that, IMO. I'm actually really hoping Laf embraces the move to the right, because Panarin-Strome-Lafreniere could be nasty.

Kakko was good in his stint with them this season, but you’re probably right. Not enough of a shooter and you need someone who plays at a faster pace than Bread+Butter.

 

Laf would be sick. I wonder if they don’t think to put him back with Zib and Kreider, though, because there was already some chemistry there. That leaves Kravtsov. He’s not too far off from Copp stylistically, though, his defense and possession skills remain to be seen at the NHL level.

[Drew a Penalty]

1 minute ago, rmc51 said:

 

From the little I've seen of Kravtsov, he loves to go to the slot area. I think he would be a tremendous fit on Panarin's line.

He’s crafty and good in transition. They’re the type of players Krav is built to work with. I just worry about overpassing. I hope Krav takes on a shooting mentality if he’s with them.

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

He’s crafty and good in transition. They’re the type of players Krav is built to work with. I just worry about overpassing. I hope Krav takes on a shooting mentality if he’s with them.

 

Me too. He has a really good shot. I think he would instantly have one of the best shots on the team.

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Kakko was good in his stint with them this season, but you’re probably right. Not enough of a shooter and you need someone who plays at a faster pace than Bread+Butter.

 

Laf would be sick. I wonder if they don’t think to put him back with Zib and Kreider, though, because there was already some chemistry there. That leaves Kravtsov. He’s not too far off from Copp stylistically, though, his defense and possession skills remain to be seen at the NHL level.

 

Kakko is a cycle player. Strome and Panarin aren't. They are control players who look for stretch passes to open lanes and move the goalie.

 

But yeah, in an ideal world, if Krav comes back and picks up where he left off, he's Copp-like at a fraction of the cost. Kreider-Zib-Laf, Panarin-Strome-Krav. Not bad.

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Kakko is a cycle player. Strome and Panarin aren't. They are control players who look for stretch passes to open lanes and move the goalie.

 

But yeah, in an ideal world, if Krav comes back and picks up where he left off, he's Copp-like at a fraction of the cost. Kreider-Zib-Laf, Panarin-Strome-Krav. Not bad.

 

Goodrow - Chytil - Kakko is a good 3rd line too. It's a good top 9. Blais on the 4th line with the ability to flex up all over the lineup will be great too.

[jsm7302]

Goodrow Chytil- Kakko

Motte- Rooney- Blais

 

I like it.

 

So the only changes to the lineup are Kravtsov and Blais. Two that could have been with us last year. Haha 

Edited June 16, 2022 by jsm7302

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

?- Chytil- Kakko

 

Goodrow.

 

It's a run it back scenario.

 

Kreider-Zibanejad-Lafreniere

Panarin-Strome-Kravtsov

Goodrow-Chytil-Kakko

Motte/Rooney/Reaves/Hunt/Blais

 

If this is their goal, they're probably letting one of Motte or Rooney walk.

[LindG1000]

Am I the weird one for wanting neither?

 

I appreciate to death what those two have done for this team, but I can't in good conscience sit here and be all that excited about giving either of them 5M or more a year until 2028 knowing full well that they're not the answer to our 2C question.

 

We know for certain that Strome works with Panarin, but isn't what we need when the games get tight.

We know with some level of surety that Copp isn't the answer at 2C either. I think Copp is really an elite 3C with enough to play up the lineup, tbqh.

 

Much as it pains me to say it - if we're looking to be a contender for a long time, why are we going to lock in anyone who doesn't clearly answer the 2C question at that kind of money for that kind of term? Aren't we better served letting Chytil have a crack at 2c, getting ourselves a proper 3C (Nick Bonino or something) and/or finding a matchup specialist, and then patching a hole if it exists at the deadline again?

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Am I the weird one for wanting neither?

 

I appreciate to death what those two have done for this team, but I can't in good conscience sit here and be all that excited about giving either of them 5M or more a year until 2028 knowing full well that they're not the answer to our 2C question.

 

We know for certain that Strome works with Panarin, but isn't what we need when the games get tight.

We know with some level of surety that Copp isn't the answer at 2C either. I think Copp is really an elite 3C with enough to play up the lineup, tbqh.

 

Much as it pains me to say it - if we're looking to be a contender for a long time, why are we going to lock in anyone who doesn't clearly answer the 2C question at that kind of money for that kind of term? Aren't we better served letting Chytil have a crack at 2c, getting ourselves a proper 3C (Nick Bonino or something) and/or finding a matchup specialist, and then patching a hole if it exists at the deadline again?

Nothing weird about it. I just think the equation changes if you’re at a $4.5M number on Strome is all. Just a few days ago I was passing on both, because I was assuming $5.5M+ on both. Under $5M for Strome was floated by Staple which got everyone talking about it.

 

I’m not sure we can conclusively say Strome and Copp are incapable of being the answers though. There’s a chance they aren’t, which is why you can only go so high on $, but I’m not sure the Rangers’ problem is personnel anymore. All of the talent is alreadys here. Now I think it just comes down to buy in from the team as a whole to skate harder every shift. Challenge for pucks harder. Backcheck harder. Commit more to team defense. Anyone can do these things, but it’s something that needs to be learned and adopted team wide. As guys bond with each other, they fight harder for each other and the desire to win together grows. Once this mentality kicks in, it’s contagious and spreads like wildfire especially once it starts to result in winning. Eventually you bring in random guys for depth and they bust their ass sideways for you because that’s the mentality set by the team.

[jsm7302]

24 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Am I the weird one for wanting neither?

 

I appreciate to death what those two have done for this team, but I can't in good conscience sit here and be all that excited about giving either of them 5M or more a year until 2028 knowing full well that they're not the answer to our 2C question.

 

We know for certain that Strome works with Panarin, but isn't what we need when the games get tight.

We know with some level of surety that Copp isn't the answer at 2C either. I think Copp is really an elite 3C with enough to play up the lineup, tbqh.

 

Much as it pains me to say it - if we're looking to be a contender for a long time, why are we going to lock in anyone who doesn't clearly answer the 2C question at that kind of money for that kind of term? Aren't we better served letting Chytil have a crack at 2c, getting ourselves a proper 3C (Nick Bonino or something) and/or finding a matchup specialist, and then patching a hole if it exists at the deadline again?

So while in the immediacy your argument sticks, Strome is a great cost controlled 3c at 4.5 mil later in this deal. So he works with Panarin for now and can slot down in the latter half. 

 

If he is open to sub 5 mil per, you have to bite. You aren't getting another C this year in free agency for this price in the realm of his talent.

[BrooksBurner]

If Strome came in at $4.5, the Rangers wouldn’t even need to pay someone to take Nemeth yet. He could be 7D or get buried in Hartford. They would have the space to absorb it.

[Pete]

58 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

 

From the little I've seen of Kravtsov, he loves to go to the slot area. I think he would be a tremendous fit on Panarin's line.

Forget what you saw Krav do in the KHL, he will get his head removed for half that shit in the NHL. You know that.

[BrooksBurner]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

Forget what you saw Krav do in the KHL, he will get his head removed for half that shit in the NHL. You know that.

 

Forgotten! I do think it's fine to look at the tape to evaluate certain things like his shot/skating/stride/etc., but for sure the dipsy doodle shit that he used to burn shitty KHL defensemen in some of his highlights isn't going to fly in the NHL. That's for the kiddos to fawn over.

 

I was really referring to the little I saw in that stint he had with the team a couple of years ago at the end of season. The ice time and production wasn't there, but I remember my lasting impression was 1) he knows where to go in the OZ without the puck - looks to camp around in the slot area and find open space, and 2) he carried the puck on his stick with confidence. It could be I was just too used to watching the shaky and unassertive versions of Kakko and Lafreniere that year, but I hope we get to find out more about him in the NHL first instead of trading him.

Edited June 16, 2022 by rmc51

[LindG1000]

31 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

So while in the immediacy your argument sticks, Strome is a great cost controlled 3c at 4.5 mil later in this deal. So he works with Panarin for now and can slot down in the latter half. 

 

If he is open to sub 5 mil per, you have to bite. You aren't getting another C this year in free agency for this price in the realm of his talent.

 

In the long term, a 4.5m 3C is just as big a problem, because Ryan Strome is not a matchup center and probably never will be. You can't run three lines that play the same way - that's what largely undid us in the playoffs this year. We need a guy at either 2C or 3C that can do to other teams what Staal or Cirelli did to us. Strome or Copp just aren't those guys.

 

Further, we don't know how high the cap goes when the escrow bubble goes off. We don't know how much money we need for Laf or Miller (two players I think we can all agree are far more important to the future of this team than Strome or Copp would be). We don't know when one of those coveted centers becomes available. And honestly....we don't really know what Strome is when it's not Panarin on his wing. Their chemistry is undeniable.

 

I like Strome. I think he's a good player. I would have loved for him to stay, but him staying at 4.5x6 is bad for him and bad for us and he probably knows that. He can do better elsewhere. So can we. And I want that to be the case here - Strome earned the bag. He should get it! 

 

To bank on either cap increases or Strome becoming something he just really isn't is how you end up making mistakes as a GM and inadvertently shortening a window.

[RJWantsTheCup]

I thought Goodrow was signed to be our shut down defensive forward?

Gallant chose not to have a defensive line play against the top lines of the teams we played in the playoffs.

Goodrow, Rooney, Motte is a defensive line.

[Capt]

Unfortunately for Strome the Rangers need a different kind of center following Zib.  I would seriously consider putting Panarin with Zib and building a tougher more straight line second line.  The Rangers have to start to become  a team that can forecheck and possess the puck.  Can't play Ice Capades 3 out of 4 lines.  

 

The other problem for Strome here is that he's not suited to play outside the top 6.  He's not good defensively, can't win a face-off, bad possession numbers, isn't physical, etc. etc.  What he does well is produce points when paired with talent.  Teams pay for that.  I have a sneaky suspicion that other teams don't value him as high as we think.  I think he has a hard time getting anything over $4.5 with term.  I have a hard time thinking anyone gives him more than 3 years.  The Rangers should just wait and see if he falls back into their laps at a reasonable term.  

[jsm7302]

5 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

 

In the long term, a 4.5m 3C is just as big a problem, because Ryan Strome is not a matchup center and probably never will be. You can't run three lines that play the same way - that's what largely undid us in the playoffs this year. We need a guy at either 2C or 3C that can do to other teams what Staal or Cirelli did to us. Strome or Copp just aren't those guys.

 

Further, we don't know how high the cap goes when the escrow bubble goes off. We don't know how much money we need for Laf or Miller (two players I think we can all agree are far more important to the future of this team than Strome or Copp would be). We don't know when one of those coveted centers becomes available. And honestly....we don't really know what Strome is when it's not Panarin on his wing. Their chemistry is undeniable.

 

I like Strome. I think he's a good player. I would have loved for him to stay, but him staying at 4.5x6 is bad for him and bad for us and he probably knows that. He can do better elsewhere. So can we. And I want that to be the case here - Strome earned the bag. He should get it! 

 

To bank on either cap increases or Strome becoming something he just really isn't is how you end up making mistakes as a GM and inadvertently shortening a window.

So four out of the six years you have Panarin and a 4.5 mil 2nd line center. Then for two years you have Ryan Strome at 4.5 Mil for center depth on a 2nd or 3rd line. 

 

To me, Kreider-Zib-Vatrano (I hope) and Panarin-Strome-Laffy are the top two lines to ride with during this wave if Vatrano also comes cost controlled. Chytil just upped his trade value immensely and pursuing the type of player you are pining for can be done via trade.

 

Kakko isn't going to be that guy either though so then we question where he falls into this puzzle. To me, our fourth line should be what you suggest our third line should be.

[LindG1000]

1 minute ago, jsm7302 said:

So four out of the six years you have Panarin and a 4.5 mil 2nd line center. Then for two years you have Ryan Strome at 4.5 Mil for center depth on a 2nd or 3rd line. 

 

To me, Kreider-Zib-Vatrano (I hope) and Panarin-Strome-Laffy are the top two lines to ride with during this wave if Vatrano also comes cost controlled. Chytil just upped his trade value immensely and pursuing the type of player you are pining for can be done via trade.

 

Kakko isn't going to be that guy either though so then we question where he falls into this puzzle. To me, our fourth line should be what you suggest our third line should be.

 

All of that is fine and dandy except for the fact that our issue is the lack of a two way mid-six center who can shut down the opposition. Strome not being that guy makes the rest of it completely irrelevant, doubly so when you have Chytil already under contract at half of your already highly unlikely low number.  Strome doesn't fix the key problem with our center depth - if he did, we're probably not having this discussion. Keeping him around doesn't move us forward. Keeping him at 4.5, 5.5, or 6.5 doesn't move us forward. It just takes up however much cap we should be using to solve this problem for however many years he signs for. 

 

Running KZV and Panarin-Strome-Laffy creates the exact same problem that undid us this year - too many lines doing the exact same thing offensively. You need diversity in approach, and that starts with finding the right guy to center that second line. 

[Bugg]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

I'm sorry you weren't watching how the PP works, but it was basically Fox and or Panarin looking for a Zib 1 timer / CK deflection / Rebound...and Kreider had 25 PPGs and Zib is Zib so there weren't that many rebounds. Strome had a role on the PP and he played it well.

So it's a good thing he is a passenger on the PP rather than a dynamic threat teams have to worry about and defense? Should his role be anything other than a guy looking for greasy goals right in front? Strome doesn't much do that. Faceoffs, defense; not much there either. He can be a decent contributor.

 

Again, what are the options, and what's the price point in terms of salary and assets you might trade to replace him. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Bugg

[jsm7302]

4 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

All of that is fine and dandy except for the fact that our issue is the lack of a two way mid-six center who can shut down the opposition. Strome not being that guy makes the rest of it completely irrelevant, doubly so when you have Chytil already under contract at half of your already highly unlikely low number.  Strome doesn't fix the key problem with our center depth - if he did, we're probably not having this discussion. Keeping him around doesn't move us forward. Keeping him at 4.5, 5.5, or 6.5 doesn't move us forward. It just takes up however much cap we should be using to solve this problem for however many years he signs for. 

 

Running KZV and Panarin-Strome-Laffy creates the exact same problem that undid us this year - too many lines doing the exact same thing offensively. You need diversity in approach, and that starts with finding the right guy to center that second line. 

You have two more lines to bring something different to the table. There is chemistry here that can take years to find and thrive. Ride with it and fill the voids you speak of with the rest of the lineup. 

 

With the mantra you speak of, the fourth line has no place on the ice. IMO the fourth line should be your shutdown, high energy forecheck crew. Lines 1-3 need to score and idc how they do it.

 

We suffocated out because the guys had no more legs to give. The Rangers played 6 more games than Colorado with no rest, playing every other night. I agree there needs to be a change but let that happen for the third line and im sorry Chytil didn't move the needle all season. If they can retain Strome sub 5 mil, im doing it and riding this core until Panarin is out of contract.

 

Morgan Barron should be centering the 3rd/4th line this year but.....we sold him for a hope and a prayer. Got the kids some good playoff experience but we lost a 1st rounder and our top center prospect in the process.

[LindG1000]

30 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

You have two more lines to bring something different to the table. There is chemistry here that can take years to find and thrive. Ride with it and fill the voids you speak of with the rest of the lineup. 

 

With the mantra you speak of, the fourth line has no place on the ice. IMO the fourth line should be your shutdown, high energy forecheck crew. Lines 1-3 need to score and idc how they do it.

 

We suffocated out because the guys had no more legs to give. The Rangers played 6 more games than Colorado with no rest, playing every other night. I agree there needs to be a change but let that happen for the third line and im sorry Chytil didn't move the needle all season. If they can retain Strome sub 5 mil, im doing it and riding this core until Panarin is out of contract.

 

Morgan Barron should be centering the 3rd/4th line this year but.....we sold him for a hope and a prayer. Got the kids some good playoff experience but we lost a 1st rounder and our top center prospect in the process.

 

Man, I don't know what to tell you if you think Ryan Strome is signing for 4.5M and that Morgan Barron was anything more than a bottom line player - doubly so if you can't look at Chytil's stats and postseason performance and tell me he can't put up a 15-40 line lif he was given the same opportunity at 2C. Don't think for a second we're seeing the same things here. 

[Pete]

11 hours ago, Bugg said:

So it's a good thing he is a passenger on the PP rather than a dynamic threat teams have to worry about and defense? Should his role be anything other than a guy looking for greasy goals right in front? Strome doesn't much do that. Faceoffs, defense; not much there either. He can be a decent contributor.

 

Again, what are the options, and what's the price point in terms of salary and assets you might trade to replace him. 

I didn't say anything about good or bad, you're complaining about lack of production on the PP when we had one of the best PPs in the NHL that features Panarin, Zib, Fox and Kreider, there's only so many pucks to go around. You can put Pavel Bure on that PP and he might not get looks. That's what I mean about complaining just to complain.

[Bugg]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

I didn't say anything about good or bad, you're complaining about lack of production on the PP when we had one of the best PPs in the NHL that features Panarin, Zib, Fox and Kreider, there's only so many pucks to go around. You can put Pavel Bure on that PP and he might not get looks. That's what I mean about complaining just to complain.

No, I'm complaining that Strome doesn't contribute much to the PP. Grant you, there are only so many shots and setups you can do and the bulk will be the other 4 guys. Simply note Vatrano was impressive on the PP when Strome wasn't on the ice vs. Bolts, shooting right out i f o the net. Again could very well be in this market Strome is the best option as 2nd line C. Would love to have someone more dynamic, better on faceoffs, better defensively, better i f o the net(wouldn't every team?) . But there may not be many options at the price point Drury has, or he may not want to give up assets for that. 

 

Keeps coming back to 2 goals in 19 playoff games; is that worth around $5 million per? If you replaced him with a more reasonable option, would you expect similar production with #10?  Could come back to he's the best you can do under the cap constraints.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Bugg

[jsm7302]

10 hours ago, LindG1000 said:

 

Man, I don't know what to tell you if you think Ryan Strome is signing for 4.5M and that Morgan Barron was anything more than a bottom line player - doubly so if you can't look at Chytil's stats and postseason performance and tell me he can't put up a 15-40 line lif he was given the same opportunity at 2C. Don't think for a second we're seeing the same things here. 

I slotted Barron into the 3rd or 4th line which is potentially what he will be in his career. He wouldve been a cost controlled option on the 4th line.

 

I didn't bring up Strome signing sub 5, it was a topic of convo that I joined and certainly agreed with the sentiment.

 

And lastly, if you think Chytil is bringing that presence you want to replace Strome on the second line then you're correct, we are seeing two totally different things. Strome is a "known commodity" with chemistry with our "superstar". Chytil is hopeful at best but still doesn't fill the role you have described prior.

 

At the end of the day, I look forward to seeing what Drury does and what the pros think. Let's just hope it is less Dryden Hunt on the top two lines! Cheers!