Mercogliano What Happens at Center?

[BrooksBurner]

Strome under $5M is a steal. If he's willing to go to $4.5M in exchange for going 6 years on term, you do it. It'd be the 3rd best non-ELC value contract on the team (Shesterkin 1, Lindgren 2) and value contracts matter more when attempting to find cap space later. He doesn't even have to be the 2C at that price. He can flex to wing, or move down to 3C. I'll listen to @josh yell Danger Zone for the duration. IDGAF.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Strome under $5M is a steal. If he's willing to go to $4.5M in exchange for going 6 years on term, you do it. It'd be the 3rd best non-ELC value contract on the team (Shesterkin 1, Lindgren 2) and value contracts matter more when attempting to find cap space later. He doesn't even have to be the 2C at that price. He can flex to wing, or move down to 3C. I'll listen to @josh yell Danger Zone for the duration. IDGAF.

As much as you're right and it would be a smart contract for the team, I'm not looking forward to 6 years of staring at the still shot of the pass that was 3 ft behind him, when he probably couldn't stop due to his injury, and 6 more years of digging up facts and correcting the false narratives. 

 

It's already been exhausting doing it so far

Edited June 16, 2022 by Pete

[Dunny]

Strome at 4.5 is still Strome. Is the he the guy for that 2nd C, you're committed to winning with? The price is secondary in this equation.

 

A pair of $75 workboots bought for $40 is a steal, but you're still stuck wearing shitty $75 workboots.

 

My personal opinion is that they have to move mountains to continue to change the roster composition in order to better compete at crunch time. There are tough decisions to be made, status quo is the easy route.

 

I'm not saying Strome sucks, or whatever, but is this a guy you're going to hitch the wagon to in April, or can we expect a similar performance?

[BrooksBurner]

8 hours ago, Pete said:

As much as you're right and it would be a smart contract for the team, I'm not looking forward to 6 years of staring at the still shot of the pass that was 3 ft behind him, when he probably couldn't stop due to his injury, and 6 more years of digging up facts and correcting the false narratives. 

 

It's already been exhausting doing it so far

Two things:
 

1) You’ll be staring at that still shot anyway. A chance for Strome at redemption and changing the narrative is better than the current narrative being held as truth after he leaves.

 

2) Stop being a pussy and get ready to put more work in.

[Pete]

Just now, rmc51 said:

Two things:
 

1) You’ll be staring at that still shot anyway. A chance for Strome at redemption and changing the narrative is better than the current narrative being held as truth after he leaves.

 

2) Stop being a pussy and get ready to put more work in.

Bro, you're a new hire... I been doing this job for 4 years! 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Dunny said:

Strome at 4.5 is still Strome. Is the he the guy for that 2nd C, you're committed to winning with? The price is secondary in this equation.

 

A pair of $75 workboots bought for $40 is a steal, but you're still stuck wearing shitty $75 workboots.

 

My personal opinion is that they have to move mountains to continue to change the roster composition in order to better compete at crunch time. There are tough decisions to be made, status quo is the easy route.

 

I'm not saying Strome sucks, or whatever, but is this a guy you're going to hitch the wagon to in April, or can we expect a similar performance?

Well when you only have $40 and you're getting a $75 pair of boots, you're still ahead of the game. 

 

The blame doesn't lie with any $4.5M player for being limited. It lies with management for putting themselves in this kind of cap situation. 

[BrooksBurner]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

Bro, you're a new hire... I been doing this job for 4 years! 

Lol you know my history on Strome. I wasn’t sold and I admit it. I’m not 100% sold now like maybe you are, but I’m way more confident in a bit of risk as the $ goes down. My perception started to change towards the end of year last year. This year I thought he was good and found it really strange how the sentiment traveled significantly in the other direction. Felt like I was being gaslit all year. He’s a 20 goal 60 point guy, and I think he might have even more to offer with “not Hunt” on the other wing.
 

I didn’t take away from the playoffs what everyone else seemed to. The negatives were highlighted. The positives were buried. One unfortunate play made on one leg doesn’t take away that he raised his physical game significantly and was unafraid to get involved. He proved he was willing to skate through a tough injury on a contract year for the team. I thought for two years he was a pussy. He has shown me he is not. He’s solidly productive and he’s a vocal leader.

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m realistic. I like the guy, but I wouldn’t want him signed for $6M. Or even $5.5. Same goes for Copp. But at something like $4.5? That’s a game changer IMO. Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Continuity is pretty important when you look to build on previous successes.

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Well when you only have $40 and you're getting a $75 pair of boots, you're still ahead of the game. 

 

The blame doesn't lie with any $4.5M player for being limited. It lies with management for putting themselves in this kind of cap situation. 

By pissing away $8M on a $4M defender.

 

Or, for spending $150 on a $75 pair of boots.

[Bugg]

12 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Lol you know my history on Strome. I wasn’t sold and I admit it. I’m not 100% sold now like maybe you are, but I’m way more confident in a bit of risk as the $ goes down. My perception started to change towards the end of year last year. This year I thought he was good and found it really strange how the sentiment traveled significantly in the other direction. Felt like I was being gaslit all year. He’s a 20 goal 60 point guy, and I think he might have even more to offer with “not Hunt” on the other wing.
 

I didn’t take away from the playoffs what everyone else seemed to. The negatives were highlighted. The positives were buried. One unfortunate play made on one leg doesn’t take away that he raised his physical game significantly and was unafraid to get involved. He proved he was willing to skate through a tough injury on a contract year for the team. I thought for two years he was a pussy. He has shown me he is not. He’s solidly productive and he’s a vocal leader.

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m realistic. I like the guy, but I wouldn’t want him signed for $6M. Or even $5.5. Same goes for Copp. But at something like $4.5? That’s a game changer IMO. Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Continuity is pretty important when you look to build on previous successes.

Positive; 2 goals over 19 games, playing center with a wing who does the puck lugging rather than you, the center, and is a pinpoint passer? On the few occasions he does carry the puck, Strome would often dump and change. Also oodles of PP time.  The job on that line is get to the net, have your stick on the ice, and look to shoot. It isn't to cycle (totally pointless for Panarin's line) or try to make ANOTHER pass. Duguay has pointed this out repeatedly; passing and cycling are a waste of time if somebody isn't in front of the net and if you don;t get a shot.  Love Lindgren, but nobody builds their offense around him getting 60 foot shots. It isn't fair to blame Strome for everything that went sideways. But it is fair to point out that had he been more effective in some big spots, we might be discussing NYR being in the SCF rather than his shortcomings. As to the injury, everyone at this point is banged up. And frankly looks like he wanted to play in game 6 and the coach allowed it; that was a mistake all around.  Strome objectively looks a lot like a slightly better version of 2013-2015 Derek Stepan. The fact that he always talks to the media and is a good guy doesn't change that. If some team wants to pay him anything over $3.5 million, vaya con Dios, Senor Strome. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Bugg

[Phil]

12 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Lol you know my history on Strome. I wasn’t sold and I admit it. I’m not 100% sold now like maybe you are, but I’m way more confident in a bit of risk as the $ goes down. My perception started to change towards the end of year last year. This year I thought he was good and found it really strange how the sentiment traveled significantly in the other direction. Felt like I was being gaslit all year. He’s a 20 goal 60 point guy, and I think he might have even more to offer with “not Hunt” on the other wing.
 

I didn’t take away from the playoffs what everyone else seemed to. The negatives were highlighted. The positives were buried. One unfortunate play made on one leg doesn’t take away that he raised his physical game significantly and was unafraid to get involved. He proved he was willing to skate through a tough injury on a contract year for the team. I thought for two years he was a pussy. He has shown me he is not. He’s solidly productive and he’s a vocal leader.

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m realistic. I like the guy, but I wouldn’t want him signed for $6M. Or even $5.5. Same goes for Copp. But at something like $4.5? That’s a game changer IMO. Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Continuity is pretty important when you look to build on previous successes.

 

There's something else, far less quantifiable, but no less important to consider, too: taking a hometown discount to stay and build a winner has a carryover affect. Just like it has in Tampa or how it did in Chicago years ago, etc.

 

Good teams that players want to be on manage their cap well, but also have their cap managed well by players who understand the concept of sacrifice both on and off the ice.

 

@Pete has been saying it for months, if not years, with Strome: this is a $5.5-6.5 million player (open market) who is going to give you $5.5-6.5M production for presumably the life of the Panarin deal, at a discount because he wants to be here. It's hard to turn your nose up at that on its face. It's even harder when you recognize what signal that will send to all the guys in line for new deals.

[Bugg]

Just now, Phil said:

 

There's something else, far less quantifiable, but no less important to consider, too: taking a hometown discount to stay and build a winner has a carryover affect. Just like it has in Tampa or how it did in Chicago years ago, etc.

 

Good teams that players want to be on manage their cap well, but also have their cap managed well by players who understand the concept of sacrifice both on and off the ice.

 

@Pete has been saying it for months, if not years, with Strome: this is a $5.5-6.5 million player (open market) who is going to give you $5.5-6.5M production for presumably the life of the Panarin deal, at a discount because he wants to be here. It's hard to turn your nose up at that on its face. It's even harder when you recognize what signal that will send to all the guys in line for new deals.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stromry01.html  this is the 1st year he nudged over 20 goals, to all of 21. In 4 years playing with Panarin and the PP, should he not be more productive? 

[Phil]

Just now, Bugg said:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stromry01.html  this is the 1st year he nudged over 20 goals, to all of 21. In 4 years playing with Panarin and the PP, should he not be more productive? 

 

No, because he's not a goal-scorer. Now the complaint is a player averaging 0.7 P/GP as a Ranger, and 0.8 P/GP over the last three seasons, isn't productive enough? He should be more productive, but take even less?

[Bugg]

19 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

No, because he's not a goal-scorer. Now the complaint is a player averaging 0.7 P/GP as a Ranger, and 0.8 P/GP over the last three seasons, isn't productive enough? He should be more productive, but take even less?

I think he should be more productive. He doesn't carry the puck; his winger does that. He doesn't much dish it either, gain, more Panarin's role. Despite getting top PP unit time, had all of 3 PPG this season. But admittedly could very well be his production is market value in line with what he wants. Or worse, the other options are little better and more expensive, in terms of salary or trade assets to get the replacement. Don't pretend to watch much other games spare what ever is on ESPN late weekend nights. I could be completely wrong and this level of production merits $ 5 million + per. 

[BrooksBurner]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

 

There's something else, far less quantifiable, but no less important to consider, too: taking a hometown discount to stay and build a winner has a carryover affect. Just like it has in Tampa or how it did in Chicago years ago, etc.

 

Good teams that players want to be on manage their cap well, but also have their cap managed well by players who understand the concept of sacrifice both on and off the ice.

 

@Pete has been saying it for months, if not years, with Strome: this is a $5.5-6.5 million player (open market) who is going to give you $5.5-6.5M production for presumably the life of the Panarin deal, at a discount because he wants to be here. It's hard to turn your nose up at that on its face. It's even harder when you recognize what signal that will send to all the guys in line for new deals.

Yes. Agreed 100%. And listen, Strome is in a good position to take less. Zibanejad took less than he could have gotten on open market (probably $10M+). Kreider took less (probably $7.5M+). I will never blame a guy for maximizing earnings during their career if that’s what they want to do, but guys have already started taking less on this team. Strome has also had $25M worth of contracts so far. How much does life change financially for him if he gets another $27M (4.5M x 6) on his next contract to stay or $30M (6M x 5) to leave? Negligible. Especially when you add it to his career total earnings already. Now…how much does non-financial life change for him and his family if he leaves? And what about quality of hockey career and chance to win a Cup?

Edited June 16, 2022 by rmc51

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Yes. Agreed 100%. And listen, Strome is in a good position to take less. Zibanejad took less than he could have gotten on open market (probably $10M+). Kreider took less (probably $7.5M+). I will never blame a guy for maximizing earnings during their career if that’s what they want to do, but guys have already started taking less on this team. Strome has also had $25M worth of contracts so far. How much does life change financially for him if he gets another $27M (4.5M x 6) on his next contract to stay or $30M (6M x 5) to leave? Negligible. Especially when you add it to his career total earnings already. Now…how much does non-financial life change for him and his family if he leaves? And what about quality of hockey career and chance to win a Cup?

 

Right. It might be splitting hairs a little, but I've always seen a difference between "maximize your earnings" and "get paid what you're worth." The latter leaves room for negotiations. The former is purely financial. Highest bid wins.

 

Agreed on everything else as well. The more I look at this situation, and as much as I still want to add harder players to the mix, the more I think they're right to prioritize Strome here. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy with Copp. Good player. Versatile, but he feels more like the maximize your earnings type where Strome feels like the pay what he's worth camp.

[BrooksBurner]

9 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Right. It might be splitting hairs a little, but I've always seen a difference between "maximize your earnings" and "get paid what you're worth." The latter leaves room for negotiations. The former is purely financial. Highest bid wins.

 

Agreed on everything else as well. The more I look at this situation, and as much as I still want to add harder players to the mix, the more I think they're right to prioritize Strome here. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy with Copp. Good player. Versatile, but he feels more like the maximize your earnings type where Strome feels like the pay what he's worth camp.

 

I don't blame Copp at all for that either. I mentioned this before but he's totaled half as much money as Strome in his career. He also doesn't have roots in NY. The only connection he really has is being friends with Trouba. Strome has lived in NY for 8 of the last 9 years of his life, and is close with a bunch of guys on the team.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Lol you know my history on Strome. I wasn’t sold and I admit it. I’m not 100% sold now like maybe you are, but I’m way more confident in a bit of risk as the $ goes down. My perception started to change towards the end of year last year. This year I thought he was good and found it really strange how the sentiment traveled significantly in the other direction. Felt like I was being gaslit all year. He’s a 20 goal 60 point guy, and I think he might have even more to offer with “not Hunt” on the other wing.
 

I didn’t take away from the playoffs what everyone else seemed to. The negatives were highlighted. The positives were buried. One unfortunate play made on one leg doesn’t take away that he raised his physical game significantly and was unafraid to get involved. He proved he was willing to skate through a tough injury on a contract year for the team. I thought for two years he was a pussy. He has shown me he is not. He’s solidly productive and he’s a vocal leader.

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’m realistic. I like the guy, but I wouldn’t want him signed for $6M. Or even $5.5. Same goes for Copp. But at something like $4.5? That’s a game changer IMO. Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Continuity is pretty important when you look to build on previous successes.

We're on the same page. I know what Strome is, but I also know (and have said before), if you scraped all the warts, he's not a $5M player anymore, he's a 6-7M player. A lot of complaints about him are also un-quantifiable and just people bitching because a player isn't perfect. You'll notice those same people basically bitch about everyone, so there's that.

 

Strome at $4.5x6 and you don't look back. It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

 

I don't blame Copp at all for that either. I mentioned this before but he's totaled half as much money as Strome in his career. He also doesn't have roots in NY. The only connection he really has is being friends with Trouba. Strome has lived in NY for 8 of the last 9 years of his life, and is close with a bunch of guys on the team.

 

Yup. I don't blame anyone for doing that. But if I'm a GM, I've got a soft spot for the guys who are willing to take less to build the best team possible.

[Phil]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

We're on the same page. I know what Strome is, but I also know (and have said before), if you scraped all the warts, he's not a $5M player anymore, he's a 6-7M player. A lot of complaints about him are also un-quantifiable and just people bitching because a player isn't perfect. You'll notice those same people basically bitch about everyone, so there's that.

 

Strome at $4.5x6 and you don't look back. It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

 

Yup. Full Stromer Boner.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Bugg said:

I think he should be more productive. He doesn't carry the puck; his winger does that. He doesn't much dish it either, gain, more Panarin's role. Despite getting top PP unit time, had all of 3 PPG this season. But admittedly could very well be his production is market value in line with what he wants. Or worse, the other options are little better and more expensive, in terms of salary or trade assets to get the replacement. Don't pretend to watch much other games spare what ever is on ESPN late weekend nights. I could be completely wrong and this level of production merits $ 5 million + per. 

I'm sorry you weren't watching how the PP works, but it was basically Fox and or Panarin looking for a Zib 1 timer / CK deflection / Rebound...and Kreider had 25 PPGs and Zib is Zib so there weren't that many rebounds. Strome had a role on the PP and he played it well.

[Cash or Czech]

I think at this point I rather see Strome stay over Copp. Copp put up points and found to be a natural finisher with Panarin during the regular season, and did okay in the playoffs, but I really think he's too expensive when others such as Jesper Fast and Colin Blackwell have played that role well too. They're going to be priced similarly. Copp also doesn't hit, at all. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body from what I saw. At least Strome mixes it up and has heart. I'd be intrigued to see what a healthy Strome and a Panarin that finds his balls can do in a future postseason. 

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Cash or Czech said:

I think at this point I rather see Strome stay over Copp. Copp put up points and found to be a natural finisher with Panarin during the regular season, and did okay in the playoffs, but I really think he's too expensive when others such as Jesper Fast and Colin Blackwell have played that role well too. They're going to be priced similarly. Copp also doesn't hit, at all. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body from what I saw. At least Strome mixes it up and has heart. I'd be intrigued to see what a healthy Strome and a Panarin that finds his balls can do in a future postseason. 

 

Who they can literally re-sign this summer at Colin Blackwell pricing.

[Drew a Penalty]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Who they can literally re-sign this summer at Colin Blackwell pricing.

Or just give the role to any of Kakko, Laf, or Kravtsov.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Or just give the role to any of Kakko, Laf, or Kravtsov.

 

Only Laf or Kravtsov are equipped for that, IMO. I'm actually really hoping Laf embraces the move to the right, because Panarin-Strome-Lafreniere could be nasty.

[jsm7302]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Only Laf or Kravtsov are equipped for that, IMO. I'm actually really hoping Laf embraces the move to the right, because Panarin-Strome-Lafreniere could be nasty.

You playing Kakko or Kravtsov on the top line?