Brooks Rangers Will be in on Patrick Kane

[Sod16]

6 hours ago, MuddyInTheMiddle said:

As the Dude pointed out, if you want to criticize Gorton's cap management on those two, I think that you have to be much more critical to the unnecessary extension given to Reaves, and the 3 year term given to Nemeth. Those two salary's plus your available cap space is you 5-6 million dollar 2nd line center.

Painful to contemplate this.  Absolutely no reason for the Reaves extension.  If he were a UFA now, they'd have the option of signing him for same amount (or less), and he wouldn't be going anywhere else.  You'd also have the option of just moving on!

[jsm7302]

45 minutes ago, Capt said:

Panarin and Kreider's contracts make even less sense on this team when you have Laf and Kakko (assuming they reach their potential).  Like it or not the Rangers future is very much tied to those two guys.  Either as trade bait or as foundational pieces.  Probably two of Panarin, Laf, Kreider, and Kakko need to be moved to better balance the cap positionally 

Kreider is odd man out. They won't but they should capitalize on his value of a 50 goal season right now. This would be huge for growth of this squad because Laf could take his spot and then suddenly we have $$ for that premier 2nd line center.

[RichieNextel305]

33 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

Kreider is odd man out. They won't but they should capitalize on his value of a 50 goal season right now. This would be huge for growth of this squad because Laf could take his spot and then suddenly we have $$ for that premier 2nd line center.

We were just within 2 games of the Final and 6 wins of a Championship. We’re going for it. Teams going for it don’t trade guys coming off of 52-goal seasons. What if this season wasn’t a one off and Kreider finally had something click and he becomes a 40-45 goal guy the next 2 or 3 years?

 

Hes the best net front presence in the league. He’s at the heart of one of the Top 2 or 3 power plays in the league. He’s a leader. Yeah, I get it. Not everyone loves the contract. But good players make good money, and Kreider is a good player. 

[jsm7302]

37 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

We were just within 2 games of the Final and 6 wins of a Championship. We’re going for it. Teams going for it don’t trade guys coming off of 52-goal seasons. What if this season wasn’t a one off and Kreider finally had something click and he becomes a 40-45 goal guy the next 2 or 3 years?

 

Hes the best net front presence in the league. He’s at the heart of one of the Top 2 or 3 power plays in the league. He’s a leader. Yeah, I get it. Not everyone loves the contract. But good players make good money, and Kreider is a good player. 

Youre 100% right about Kreider and our current status. However  I'm just looking at what we have that is redundant and what we lack and where we can remove a known commodity with little setback to improve a HUGE void in our lineup. Laf can do what Kreider does and is learning to be his replacement some day.

 

We have 0 center depth. Literally 0. Chytil isn't a second line center and has played physical for a few games but other wise has avoided physical play and is not a shut down center man. We are severely lacking in top end RW and center talent.

 

We are coming off an unexpected ECF loss, true. But we also had a lot of cards that fell in our favor to get us there. To replicate that success consistently we will need upgrades at 1st line RW, 2nd line RW and second line center. However we have a #1OA who is on an upwards trajectory that makes CK20 redundant when it comes to a salary cap and completing a roster.

 

If you think trading Kreider doesn't have merit then im curious how we fill the top 3 positions. Chytil again, is not 2nd line talent with Panarin. Kakko is yet to show he can play top end Offense especially against teams top match ups. Kravtsov is an unknown.

 

Teams need full rosters to win a Stanley Cup. Hope we can figure it out. 

[fletch]

I feel like we just went through this with Buchnevich.  Clearing a roster spot, then missing his production

[Capt]

2 hours ago, MuddyInTheMiddle said:

As has been stated repeatedly above, it's an open market contract.

 

He makes the approximately the same as Marner, and what M. Tchachuk & Gaudreau will make this off season.

 

Same question for you: Who are you replacing his production with that is not "overpaid"?

You're right Marner makes about the same money and that is an awful allocation of cap space too.  Teams don't win cups building their teams around left wings.  You have 100 years of history to look at.  This isn't about how good Kreider or Panarin is.  This is about what this team needs and the money they have to get it.  They need centers, especially a top 6 good one.  Unless they draft and develop one that is going to cost minimum $6-7M AV.  The other option is to move Laf for a young cost controlled center who can fill that role.  All three options are unpopular because they are all tough decisions to pull the trigger on but that is there reality.  As has been noted it's best to make the move that has to be done while you will get the best return for whatever asset you trade.  Denying that this issue exists and that it has to be addressed in the next year or two doesn't make it go away.  They are not winning a cup with some scrub centering the second line.  Sorry

[Capt]

6 minutes ago, fletch said:

I feel like we just went through this with Buchnevich.  Clearing a roster spot, then missing his production

Yeah you did.  The reason they had to clear cap space is because they are over leveraged on the wing.  It's why they couldn't pay him, another wing what he deserved.  Buchnevich is the opportunity cost of having Panarin.   

[The Dude]

9 hours ago, Br4d said:

It's not just the drafts that Drury is dealing with.  Panarin and Trouba are both cap issues that keep on causing problems.

 

BTW, I like both players but not at the effect they have on the cap.  Between them they account for nearly 25% of the cap and when has that ever worked out?

 

This roster right now is Gorton's roster with Drury doing continuous damage control and he'll have to keep doing that for at least another season.

The thing is,  those contracts aren't that bad. If the cap wasn't stuck in flat cap mode (why is it still? After the espn deal and no more covid lock down, shot should kick back in to the way it was, if not a bump up), these deals would be the norm/average.  

 

Even still. Typically a bad team has to overpay to get quality players to come play for them. It just turned out that things fell into place with the rebuild at a very fast pace. Whats here and is young is all thanks to Gorton and extremely good luck. Besides the 1 and 2 OA, he brought in Fox, Miller, Schneider, Jones, Robertson, Kravtsov, Berard and what ever else is around. 

 

It's not like Drury walked into a disaster franchise that needed to start over. Fuck, look at Chicago,  rebuilding again. Detroit is taking a while to get their shit together. The Devils started their rebuild before the Rangers and they just drafted 2nd OA and have had how many top picks in the last 4 or so years? 

 

Drury is pretty damn lucky to have stepped in the shit he did. But don't forget,  he too has handed out some contracts that look like they ate a tab bit over what they should be. Zibanejad and Fox for example. It could be argued that they got too much money and too many years with their no trades.. Nemeth, Goodrow, Reaves, bringing Dryden Hunt to the franchise... 

 

Let's ease off on fully blaming Gorton for the cap problems, because he brought in an elite forward and a rising star on D at a million more than we all think they are worth today, at a time the team was scrapped and starting over. 

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Capt said:

You're right Marner makes about the same money and that is an awful allocation of cap space too.  Teams don't win cups building their teams around left wings.  You have 100 years of history to look at.  This isn't about how good Kreider or Panarin is.  This is about what this team needs and the money they have to get it.  They need centers, especially a top 6 good one.  Unless they draft and develop one that is going to cost minimum $6-7M AV.  The other option is to move Laf for a young cost controlled center who can fill that role.  All three options are unpopular because they are all tough decisions to pull the trigger on but that is there reality.  As has been noted it's best to make the move that has to be done while you will get the best return for whatever asset you trade.  Denying that this issue exists and that it has to be addressed in the next year or two doesn't make it go away.  They are not winning a cup with some scrub centering the second line.  Sorry

Edited July 8, 2022 by Pete

[Pete]

Maybe we can stop dragging the Panarin argument into every thread, too.

[RichieNextel305]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Maybe we can stop dragging the Panarin argument into every thread, too.

Agreed. 

[josh]

17 minutes ago, fletch said:

I feel like we just went through this with Buchnevich.  Clearing a roster spot, then missing his production

Didn't need Buch as much as they needed other pieces. Same with Kane.

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Capt said:

He's 100% right.  Panarin is a left wing, not a center.  He's not even close to a complete player.  He's paid in the McDavid and soon to be McKinnon class.  He is not those players, not even close.  He's a great scorer on the wing.  

Come onnnn. Not even close? Stop man. He's very, very close. Dude is an all world talent and one of the best wingers of this generation.

 

This is getting out of hand in nit picking the guys contract which was signed before covid and the flat cap. Wait till the next waive of prime year UFAs come along. They will surpass Panarins deal. 

 

If you look at the league, most teams lock up such players before they hit UFA status. Elite players hardly ever hit the market in their prime years (26-28-30). When they do. They break the bank. Has there even been a marquee name available via UFA since? Like someone else mentioned, if Gaudreau hits the open market,  he should get Panarin money.  Why? UFA in his prime years. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

I think the Rangers got a deal on the Zibanejad contract.  He could easily get 10M plus. 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I think the Rangers got a deal on the Zibanejad contract.  He could easily get 10M plus. 

 

Zibanejad and Kreider both took discounts from what they could get on the open market.

[The Dude]

36 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

Youre 100% right about Kreider and our current status. However  I'm just looking at what we have that is redundant and what we lack and where we can remove a known commodity with little setback to improve a HUGE void in our lineup. Laf can do what Kreider does and is learning to be his replacement some day.

 

We have 0 center depth. Literally 0. Chytil isn't a second line center and has played physical for a few games but other wise has avoided physical play and is not a shut down center man. We are severely lacking in top end RW and center talent.

 

We are coming off an unexpected ECF loss, true. But we also had a lot of cards that fell in our favor to get us there. To replicate that success consistently we will need upgrades at 1st line RW, 2nd line RW and second line center. However we have a #1OA who is on an upwards trajectory that makes CK20 redundant when it comes to a salary cap and completing a roster.

 

If you think trading Kreider doesn't have merit then im curious how we fill the top 3 positions. Chytil again, is not 2nd line talent with Panarin. Kakko is yet to show he can play top end Offense especially against teams top match ups. Kravtsov is an unknown.

 

Teams need full rosters to win a Stanley Cup. Hope we can figure it out. 

Kreider is pretty much the captain. He is super close with Zibanejad. You deal Kreider right now, the team deflates and you might as well rebuild again.  

 

I don't even see Lafreniere as a comparable player to Kreider. That kid doesn't have the speed,  or the desire to park infront of the net like Kreider.   That doesn't mean that I think he's not going to be a very good player. I just don't see the comparison. 2 very different types of players that bring very different styles of play to their lines. 

 

The guy to deal IMO, would have to be Trouba if you're strictly looking for instant large amounts of cap space.  Eventually Schneider is going to require a bigger role and I'd say he has the potential to be what Trouba is today, if not better. 

 

I'm not sure why the Rangers haven't dabbled in using Kakko at center at all. I recall he played some center in his last year in Jr's. He's strong on the puck, thinks defensively, and can slow down the play. IDK, those skills seem more like center traits to me. I guess skating ability may have something to do with it?

 

Heck. Why not Lafreniere at center? If people want to change his position like it's no big deal, why not center?  

 

 

[josh]

7 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I think the Rangers got a deal on the Zibanejad contract.  He could easily get 10M plus. 

Probably not. And not for 8 years. 
 

that might be the worst contract by the end of it. Although no lane of the long term contracts have actually finished. 

[Capt]

45 minutes ago, Pete said:

Maybe we can stop dragging the Panarin argument into every thread, too.

I din't.  Now Panarin is on the level of Ovie an all time great.  Got it.  lol

[Capt]

35 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Come onnnn. Not even close? Stop man. He's very, very close. Dude is an all world talent and one of the best wingers of this generation.

 

This is getting out of hand in nit picking the guys contract which was signed before covid and the flat cap. Wait till the next waive of prime year UFAs come along. They will surpass Panarins deal. 

 

If you look at the league, most teams lock up such players before they hit UFA status. Elite players hardly ever hit the market in their prime years (26-28-30). When they do. They break the bank. Has there even been a marquee name available via UFA since? Like someone else mentioned, if Gaudreau hits the open market,  he should get Panarin money.  Why? UFA in his prime years. 

He's close to McDavid and McKinnon?  You're kidding right?  That is no dig on Panarin, the only one close is Matthews

[The Dude]

2 minutes ago, Capt said:

He's close to McDavid and McKinnon?  You're kidding right?  That is no dig on Panarin, the only one close is Matthews

Yes. Close. They are tier 1 A. Panarin is tier 1 B. 

 

He is next level. He is elite. Tops at his position. It can't even be debated that this player is one of the best in the world  

 

So, yes. Close. 

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

Just now, Capt said:

I din't.  Now Panarin is on the level of Ovie an all time great.  Got it.  lol

Bro, you said you don't win Cups building around LW. Clearly untrue.

 

Just take the L. You're wrong.

Stats since Panarin signed.

[Br4d]

Kakko would be the one to try at C.  He's played the position before and he's clearly got the legs to be a two-way player.

 

However that still does not resolve the depth chart issues because it moves a RW to C.

 

If I'm the Rangers I ask myself if I can afford to have 3 1LW's and support them all at the same time.

 

If the answer is yes then a lot of other moves have to be made to support that decision.  You need a 2C to support whomever the 2LW is, and that's not an easy call either.  If you don't put Lafreniere in the top 6 you are insane at this point from a developmental and future value perspective.  Lafreniere is the Ranger's future up front and to keep pretending that is not the case is just a loser move all around.  So do you put Kreider at 3LW or Panarin?  Because Lafreniere is taking one of the top 6 spots.  If you put Panarin at 2LW then that seemingly prevents you from using Chytil as 2C.  So Kreider to 3LW with Chytil and you also need to find at least 1RW alongside the 2C.

 

One solution would be to move Kreider to RW and resolve half the logjam right away.

 

That puts Laf-Zibanejad-Kreider on 1.  It puts Panarin, 2C, Kratsov/Kakko on line 2.  It puts 3LW, Chytil and Kratsov/Kakko on line 3.  3LW could be Will Cuylle if the Rangers decide to roster him in 2022-23 which is probably a decent chance.  Obviously there are other less attractive possibilities at 3LW but lines 1 and 2 look really good if the Rangers can figure out how to get Lafreniere on one of them alongside a 2C acquisition.  There's a lot of talent in those 6 players and line 3 has real possibilities also.  Line 4 is Hunt, Goodrow, Reaves which is a decent checking line.

 

If you choose to keep the 3LW's then figuring out how to line them all up is much tougher.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Br4d

[RichieNextel305]

There is NO definitive route to a Cup. There have been Cup winners that play different styles all through time. The latest is the flavor of the week. No one has ever won a Cup trying to directly replicate the year priors Champ.

 

Play your game. Play to your strength. We have a glut of talented wingers? Cool. If we win a Cup next year and Panarin, Kreider, Lafreniere, etc all have monster years, guess what? Everyone will be saying that wingers can help you win Cups and that the theory that Champs are built through the middle is a myth.

 

 

[josh]

I don’t see any of the prospect or signed wingers as centers. Kakko, Lafreniere, and Kravtsov are most certainly wingers. 

[BrooksBurner]

14 minutes ago, josh said:

I don’t see any of the prospect or signed wingers as centers. Kakko, Lafreniere, and Kravtsov are most certainly wingers. 

I feel like Kravtsov has some center qualities.