Time for a Lafreniere Reset

[Gravesy]

12 hours ago, Phil said:

It's not just burst, it's a lack of speed, period. He looks like a fourth-line plug with no discernible "thing" he's good at.

I think the complete lack of any sort of foot speed is absolutely killing him.

This is a kid whose game was built on hockey iq, playmaking ability and physique. But he's not particularly big or strong in the NHL, and you're not going to walk in and dominate a league full of high end athletes and wily veterans purely leaning on your elite mind. You're not going to go out there and outsmart everyone and see the ice better than guys who've done it for years.

I don't necessarily agree there's "nothing" there. I think you see these little glimpses of passing, playmaking ability and vision where you can clearly see there's a real player in they're somewhere. It's obviously not happening with any sort of regularity and the Laf experience has been wholly underwhelming, but it's there. He's one of the best junior players of all time, of course he's mega talented. He simply doesn't have the speed, burst or even edge work to be consistently effective against NHL calibre opposition at this point. I don't think all is lost by any means, but I do think it's going to be a slow burner unless he can significantly improve his overall skating and speed.

It leads me to wonder if the NHL has evolved to a place where you have to think long and hard about taking a forward without high end skating ability in the top 5. Kakko is a similar issue, and, even if he's improving, he's got a ways to go before you can say that was excellent use of a 2nd OA pick. I mean, who was the last kid to come out and dominate that is merely an average skater? Petterson comes to mind, but his edge work is good and he's got an incredibly special shot on him. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Gravesy

[Gravesy]

Double post

Edited December 16, 2021 by Gravesy

[Pete]

17 minutes. 1 shot. 

[Phil]

4 hours ago, Gravesy said:

I think the complete lack of any sort of foot speed is absolutely killing him.

This is a kid whose game was built on hockey iq, playmaking ability and physique. But he's not particularly big or strong in the NHL, and you're not going to walk in and dominate a league full of high end athletes and wily veterans purely leaning on your elite mind. You're not going to go out there and outsmart everyone and see the ice better than guys who've done it for years.

I don't necessarily agree there's "nothing" there. I think you see these little glimpses of passing, playmaking ability and vision where you can clearly see there's a real player in they're somewhere. It's obviously not happening with any sort of regularity and the Laf experience has been wholly underwhelming, but it's there. He's one of the best junior players of all time, of course he's mega talented. He simply doesn't have the speed, burst or even edge work to be consistently effective against NHL calibre opposition at this point. I don't think all is lost by any means, but I do think it's going to be a slow burner unless he can significantly improve his overall skating and speed.

It leads me to wonder if the NHL has evolved to a place where you have to think long and hard about taking a forward without high end skating ability in the top 5. Kakko is a similar issue, and, even if he's improving, he's got a ways to go before you can say that was excellent use of a 2nd OA pick. I mean, who was the last kid to come out and dominate that is merely an average skater? Petterson comes to mind, but his edge work is good and he's got an incredibly special shot on him. 

Everything you said can be said of Adam Fox. You realize that, right?

This is entirely on the player.

Also, the answer to your question is Stamkos.

[Sharpshooter]

His best stickhandling comes when he's dumping the puck. lol

[siddious]

21 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

His best stickhandling comes when he's dumping the puck. lol

It's literally the only time I ever notice him in games. That classic blue line to red line skate and dump followed by dry heaving to the bench. No one in the NHL does it better.

[josh]

He played well last night. noticeable with the puck and backchecking.

[siddious]

4 minutes ago, josh said:

He played well last night. noticeable with the puck and backchecking.

Wasn't his worst game for sure. Thought he had a goal on that pass from Kakko where he tried to go 5 hole. 

[Ozzy]

21 minutes ago, siddious said:

Wasn't his worst game for sure. Thought he had a goal on that pass from Kakko where he tried to go 5 hole. 

He just got a little too close, that's all.  I wish he would fire it right away and catch the goalies moving.  It's not just Yukon, but all of them seem to hold it just a shade too long before shooting it.

[Pete]

He's at the point where good back checking just isn't good enough. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

He looked better playing with Strome last night, still not good though.

[Kevin]

I can't remember the player he was talking about but didn't Lyle Odelien have a quote about a top prospect in Montreal where he basically said he can't play hockey at this level?  I'm starting to feel the same about Laf.  When he finally does something decent I get excited but then realize that a guy like Dryden Hunt can do the same thing that Laf just did that was decent.  My expectations have reduced that far for him.  

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I can't remember the player he was talking about but didn't Lyle Odelien have a quote about a top prospect in Montreal where he basically said he can't play hockey at this level?  I'm starting to feel the same about Laf.  When he finally does something decent I get excited but then realize that a guy like Dryden Hunt can do the same thing that Laf just did that was decent.  My expectations have reduced that far for him.  

I'm really hard on him but I'm hoping that he at least resembles an RNH path. He had fits and starts but was basically a 40 to 50 point player until he turned 25 and then started producing at a higher level.

You would think that giving these guys protected minutes rather than throwing them onto the first line on really bad teams would help them... apparently it's not. 

[Gravesy]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

Everything you said can be said of Adam Fox. You realize that, right?

This is entirely on the player.

Also, the answer to your question is Stamkos.

Well, I said "forward", which sort of rules out Adam Fox. Also, Adam Fox - whilst not a speedster - is excellent on his skates. 

Stamkos was drafted almost 14 years ago, so I guess that sort of backs up my point.

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'm really hard on him but I'm hoping that he at least resembles an RNH path. He had fits and starts but was basically a 40 to 50 point player until he turned 25 and then started producing at a higher level.

You would think that giving these guys protected minutes rather than throwing them onto the first line on really bad teams would help them... apparently it's not. 

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't even think Laf is getting protected minutes. Protected minutes - to me - means he's getting advantageous time; he's just getting the zone starts. He's not on PP1 (or getting much PP time at all), he's not getting top 6 time with high OZ%, he's playing with guys like Chytil and Goodrow and Gauthier. These aren't guys who help you develop your game as a 20 year old quasi-rookie player and they're not good fits for him. Laf's game in juniors was about hockey IQ, guile, deception - he was incredible at using a linemate as a decoy and generating chances. Here, he gets Chytil flubbing passes and Gauthier charging at the net like Charlie Brown running at a football. He's been less than advertised, but it isn't like we're really helping him either.

There's some good news in the advanced stats space on him versus last season. He's had, thus far, an improvement of 8 xG so far this season. His shooting metrics are better. His possession metrics are better. But it's not translating into the boxcars and into the on-ice play. Part of that, IMO, is that Chytil and Gauthier are awful off the puck players. Part of it is that Laf is not yet physically up to speed for the NHL. Part of it is probably that he's focusing more on two-way play.

Regardless, I still think it's a numbers game at LW that has to sort itself out in some way, and I wish to all holy hell Laf could play RW, because I think he'd be fine playing with either of our top 2 LW-C pairs.

[Valriera]

13 minutes ago, G1000 said:

Part of that, IMO, is that Chytil and Gauthier are awful off the puck players. Part of it is that Laf is not yet physically up to speed for the NHL. Part of it is probably that he's focusing more on two-way play.

At least 2 out of 3 of these is right but on any given night I'm really not sure which ones they are. 

[Keirik]

4 hours ago, Sharpshooter said:

His best stickhandling comes when he's dumping the puck. lol

Lol think I said that in the gdt. He’s got a good dangle when he’s at center ice about to dump it for sure

[Pete]

3 hours ago, G1000 said:

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't even think Laf is getting protected minutes. Protected minutes - to me - means he's getting advantageous time; he's just getting the zone starts. He's not on PP1 (or getting much PP time at all), he's not getting top 6 time with high OZ%, he's playing with guys like Chytil and Goodrow and Gauthier. These aren't guys who help you develop your game as a 20 year old quasi-rookie player and they're not good fits for him. Laf's game in juniors was about hockey IQ, guile, deception - he was incredible at using a linemate as a decoy and generating chances. Here, he gets Chytil flubbing passes and Gauthier charging at the net like Charlie Brown running at a football. He's been less than advertised, but it isn't like we're really helping him either.

There's some good news in the advanced stats space on him versus last season. He's had, thus far, an improvement of 8 xG so far this season. His shooting metrics are better. His possession metrics are better. But it's not translating into the boxcars and into the on-ice play. Part of that, IMO, is that Chytil and Gauthier are awful off the puck players. Part of it is that Laf is not yet physically up to speed for the NHL. Part of it is probably that he's focusing more on two-way play.

Regardless, I still think it's a numbers game at LW that has to sort itself out in some way, and I wish to all holy hell Laf could play RW, because I think he'd be fine playing with either of our top 2 LW-C pairs.

Think about the people he has to play against, not who he plays with. He should be making his linemates better, not vice versa. And he plays against lesser competition than other #1OAs who are immediately put on the first line.

[josh]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Think about the people he has to play against, not who he plays with. He should be making his linemates better, not vice versa. And he plays against lesser competition than other #1OAs who are immediately put on the first line.

There is only so much you can do to make linemates better.

I mentioned before, he'll get the puck in the offensive zone, and everyone is standing behind defenders.

Last night, he had the puck in the [far] corner, Gauthier was behind a defender. Lafreniere played a perfect puck to the slot. All Gauthier had to do was NOT go further into coverage, and he did. If he had any sense of scoring, he takes one step into open space and gets a scoring chance in the slot. These plays happen time and time again. They dont have anyone who knows, or wants, to get open to shoot.

let me see if I can find it.

[Keirik]

I’m not saying we are making a ton of excuses for Alf but we certainly are making a ton of excuses for him 

 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, josh said:

There is only so much you can do to make linemates better.

I mentioned before, he'll get the puck in the offensive zone, and everyone is standing behind defenders.

Last night, he had the puck in the [far] corner, Gauthier was behind a defender. Lafreniere played a perfect puck to the slot. All Gauthier had to do was NOT go further into coverage, and he did. If he had any sense of scoring, he takes one step into open space and gets a scoring chance in the slot. These plays happen time and time again. They dont have anyone who knows, or wants, to get open to shoot.

let me see if I can find it.

Dude he played with Stroe and Hunt for 2 periods!? Is it always everyone else's fault?

"The only way our 1OA can succeed is with all star linemates".

Edited December 16, 2021 by Pete

[Scott]

No more excuses, it's got to be everybody else at this point because he's played with them all over a 29 game sample this season on top of 56 games last. 

[josh]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Dude he played with Stroe and Hunt for 2 periods!? Is it always everyone else's fault?

"The only way our 1OA can succeed is with all star linemates".

And he played much better, and was noticeable at both ends of the ice.

At this point, it's really just perception bias. This kid will never be anything in your eyes. And you seem to go out of your way to ignore any positives in his game.

[josh]

maybe his reset is new linemates.

[Pete]

 

10 minutes ago, josh said:

And he played much better, and was noticeable at both ends of the ice.

At this point, it's really just perception bias. This kid will never be anything in your eyes. And you seem to go out of your way to ignore any positives in his game.

This is such a cop out. He's nothing in my eyes right now because he's nothing. You go out of your way to make excuses for him. It's never what he's not doing...It's always what his linemates aren't doing, or what the coach didn't do. New coach, Multiple linemates this year. Still nada.

He stinks right now and there's a reason his ice time was trending down game after game, so maybe Gallant has perception bias?

Maybe Gallant and I both hold the same hope that eventually he'll do....anything to clue that he might be an NHL player....One day.... and that's why he got 17 minutes when Panarin went down....And was still unproductive.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Pete