Dreger Rangers Taking Calls on Kaapo Kakko

[Albatrosss]

Why is it that if someone doesnt live up to his billing must be traded for a bag of pucks?  Yes, Krappo is not what we expected as #2 OA but he’s still young and has a role on this team. Be it on a 3rd or 4th line, if he serves a purpose— he’s fine with me. 

[Albatrosss]

Also..i love Billy Joel

[Pete]

8 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

What kind of trade value do you think he has?

@LindG1000 answered for me, but I'll add that if you want a top 6 wing, it's going to take more than Kakko. So it's Kakko+, and then guess what? You need to replace Kakko ... With a player just like Kakko. So what's the point? 

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

@LindG1000 answered for me, but I'll add that if you want a top 6 wing, it's going to take more than Kakko. So it's Kakko+, and then guess what? You need to replace Kakko ... With a player just like Kakko. So what's the point? 

Exactly.

 

I get the advocacy to trade Kakko by fans that are down on him.

I may not agree with it, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

 

But we are clearly thin on the RW and have been. You move Kakko, plus whatever, get a top-6 W. But then you need another RW, as said, presumably in the mold of Kakko. 
So you gotta go get that or hope you find it from within.

 

If you wanna move the guy… ok. But do it in the summer in a form of a hockey trade. Gives you time, plus more partner options, plus more guys potentially available as a part of any return.

 

It makes no sense to move him this season. You’re just creating another hole. His value is not high. Your partners and return are limited.

They’d be hamstringing themselves at least to a certain degree. 

[Pete]

47 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Exactly.

 

I get the advocacy to trade Kakko by fans that are down on him.

I may not agree with it, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

 

But we are clearly thin on the RW and have been. You move Kakko, plus whatever, get a top-6 W. But then you need another RW, as said, presumably in the mold of Kakko. 
So you gotta go get that or hope you find it from within.

 

If you wanna move the guy… ok. But do it in the summer in a form of a hockey trade. Gives you time, plus more partner options, plus more guys potentially available as a part of any return.

 

It makes no sense to move him this season. You’re just creating another hole. His value is not high. Your partners and return are limited.

They’d be hamstringing themselves at least to a certain degree. 

Agree. Fans advocating trading him are just frustrated with him. But that's not the way a good GM thinks.

 

And I know, because that's the point I was at with Lafreniere. It was more frustrating with him because he had no identity, he clearly didn't have the skill set to be a bottom six player, nor was he good enough to be a top six player at the time. 

 

Kakko is the opposite. He's already a reliable bottom six player who is cost controlled. If he taps his offensive potential, that's gravy. Now if he wants to change his scenery, power play time, etc, that's different. 

 

You can't disregard what he did last year (which is exactly what you want from a third liner) because he's struggling this season. Nor can we ignore this season because he was better last season... That said, development isn't linear. Sometimes it's two steps forward one step back. 

[Sharpshooter]

I'd hang on to him. Missing 20+ games didn't really help, either. Look at Lafreniere the second half (or even the whole season) and playoffs, compared to this season. He looks 100% better.

[jsm7302]

So with knowing 1st round picks are likely off the table and the desire to keep Kakko around....who are we dealing that seems worthwhile for teams to give up a top 6 RW and middle 6 C?

 

Our capital for making these moves are Kakko, Zac Jones and mid round picks. I don't see much we have to offer. You figure Othmann and Perrault are non starters for us as well.

[LindG1000]

It's hard to encapsulate it, but it's basically this.

 

Kakko's value isn't a 2nd overall pick. It doesn't matter that it's what he was, it isn't there. It's not even close. The best approximation we have for him is probably Sam Bennett, who was struggling hard with the Flames after being picked 4th overall and ultimately traded for a 2nd and a prospect. Does that return help us win this year more than Kakko does? 

 

I don't think so. Even flipping those assets is hard, and the likelihood of landing two better RWs than Kakko (he needs to be replaced, and we already need an RW) isn't there. 

 

Then you have this: Kakko isn't struggling in the role he's being asked to play. That line works. His role as 3RW works - and rather well. He's struggling to break past that role and be the guy we drafted him to be. These are different things and need to be weighed carefully because trading a guy based on perceived value only to break a functional part of the team in the process is a one-step forward, two-step-back move.

 

Compound that with Kakko's contract being up and him not having earned a big raise of any kind, and that he's still just 22 - somehow - you almost have to come to the conclusion that barring something extraordinary, there's not really a great reason to move him at this time.

[BrooksBurner]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

@LindG1000 answered for me, but I'll add that if you want a top 6 wing, it's going to take more than Kakko. So it's Kakko+, and then guess what? You need to replace Kakko ... With a player just like Kakko. So what's the point? 

Wheeler takes the 3rd line spot rest of season. Othmann or Berard takes it next season. There’s zero issue replacing a 3rd line wing. It’s just not an issue. Kakko is expendable in every sense of the word, but only if the value is there. That’s why I asked what I asked. I’ll give Kakko and a 1 and a cherry on top for a legitimate top 6 player.

[RangerDanger]

28 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

So with knowing 1st round picks are likely off the table and the desire to keep Kakko around....who are we dealing that seems worthwhile for teams to give up a top 6 RW and middle 6 C?

 

Our capital for making these moves are Kakko, Zac Jones and mid round picks. I don't see much we have to offer. You figure Othmann and Perrault are non starters for us as well.

I'm not as convinced anymore that they're looking for a 3C, kinda get the feeling they're fine with Cuylle/Brodz/Kakko. Not that this answers your question at all, just a feeling I get. 
My bigger concern is that getting rid of Kakko in a deal for a top 6 RW, then kinda ruins that 3rd line chemistry. Obviously you slot Wheeler down there, which slows down the line in general, as well as takes away their energy & defensive responsibilities. All of which Wheeler ain't got.

[LindG1000]

25 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

So with knowing 1st round picks are likely off the table and the desire to keep Kakko around....who are we dealing that seems worthwhile for teams to give up a top 6 RW and middle 6 C?

 

Our capital for making these moves are Kakko, Zac Jones and mid round picks. I don't see much we have to offer. You figure Othmann and Perrault are non starters for us as well.

Honestly, that's fine. There's not really much out there right now that we should be offing a real asset for anyway, and over the next few weeks, the sellers should make themselves more known (so prices will drop).

 

We should be looking to move Robertson at this point - it's clear he has no spot. We have a 2nd, and some mid-round picks later on down the road. I'd assume anyone drafted under Gorton is at risk too. And finally - I'm not opposed to moving Gus. He's shown he's a capable PPQB, but we have Fox, we have Trouba (yeah yeah), we have Jones (who can play the 5v5 role Gus plays better than Gus does at this point)...that's perhaps where some team finds value.

[LindG1000]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Wheeler takes the 3rd line spot rest of season. Othmann or Berard takes it next season. There’s zero issue replacing a 3rd line wing. It’s just not an issue. Kakko is expendable in every sense of the word, but only if the value is there. That’s why I asked what I asked. I’ll give Kakko and a 1 and a cherry on top for a legitimate top 6 player.

 

Blake Wheeler is not an effective player on a forecheck-heavy line. Blake Wheeler likes carrying the puck, not winning it back. Cuylle-Brodzinski-Wheeler is not a line I want to go into the playoffs with, even if that means that Kreider and Zibanejad have....someone?

 

I don't think any solution for the 1RW spot (which we clearly need) would cost more than a 1st and a prospect this year. I don't get why you'd move Kakko to make, like, Tarasenko or Vatrano or Duclair happen. 

[RangersIn7]

13 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

It's hard to encapsulate it, but it's basically this.

 

Kakko's value isn't a 2nd overall pick. It doesn't matter that it's what he was, it isn't there. It's not even close. The best approximation we have for him is probably Sam Bennett, who was struggling hard with the Flames after being picked 4th overall and ultimately traded for a 2nd and a prospect. Does that return help us win this year more than Kakko does? 

 

I don't think so. Even flipping those assets is hard, and the likelihood of landing two better RWs than Kakko (he needs to be replaced, and we already need an RW) isn't there. 

 

Then you have this: Kakko isn't struggling in the role he's being asked to play. That line works. His role as 3RW works - and rather well. He's struggling to break past that role and be the guy we drafted him to be. These are different things and need to be weighed carefully because trading a guy based on perceived value only to break a functional part of the team in the process is a one-step forward, two-step-back move.

 

Compound that with Kakko's contract being up and him not having earned a big raise of any kind, and that he's still just 22 - somehow - you almost have to come to the conclusion that barring something extraordinary, there's not really a great reason to move him at this time.

This.

 

Totally abysmal start.

Misses 20 games.

 

Wasnt great those first 5-6 games after he returned either. Needed to get his legs back under him.

Last 5-6 games though not only has he looked better but the line he’s on is clicking and he’s got 4 or 5 points over that span. 
 

 

[Pete]

13 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Wheeler takes the 3rd line spot rest of season. Othmann or Berard takes it next season. There’s zero issue replacing a 3rd line wing. It’s just not an issue. Kakko is expendable in every sense of the word, but only if the value is there. That’s why I asked what I asked. I’ll give Kakko and a 1 and a cherry on top for a legitimate top 6 player.

Wheeler sucks and Berard and Othmann are left wings. If Othmann moves to the right, it's likely and appropriate that he goes to Zib's wing. He's exactly what they need.

 

IMO you haven't made a compelling argument to move Kakko. You're not upgrading on him unless you sweeten the pot. I'm not interested in that. 

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

Blake Wheeler is not an effective player on a forecheck-heavy line. Blake Wheeler likes carrying the puck, not winning it back. Cuylle-Brodzinski-Wheeler is not a line I want to go into the playoffs with, even if that means that Kreider and Zibanejad have....someone?

 

I don't think any solution for the 1RW spot (which we clearly need) would cost more than a 1st and a prospect this year. I don't get why you'd move Kakko to make, like, Tarasenko or Vatrano or Duclair happen. 

 

I don't think Blake Wheeler is going anywhere, and he's going to be in the lineup. I would just hope in a reduced role from what he has now. I don't think he gets reduced to the bench, or waived.

[LindG1000]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't think Blake Wheeler is going anywhere, and he's going to be in the lineup. I would just hope in a reduced role from what he has now. I don't think he gets reduced to the bench, or waived.

 

I'm not really sure how that's relevant. Is the implication here that because the team seems unwilling to make a tough call on Wheeler, they need to make a shortsighted call on Kakko?

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

Wheeler sucks and Berard and Othmann are left wings. If Othmann moves to the right, it's likely and appropriate that he goes to Zib's wing. He's exactly what they need.

 

IMO you haven't made a compelling argument to move Kakko. You're not upgrading on him unless you sweeten the pot. I'm not interested in that. 

 

Othmann should not go directly to the top 6 as a rookie. I'm excited to see him in blue, but we've seen that movie before. He's probably not cutting into the roster this year either.

 

I was actually thinking Kakko hasn't made a compelling argument after 5 seasons to be untouchable. I'm reading he's too good/important/cheap of a 3rd line wing to trade, and simultaneously doesn't hold enough value to upgrade him. Honestly, I just interpret it as being too timid and scared to make a bold move. For every JT Miller traded too early, there's 100 players who don't pan out like that.

[BrooksBurner]

8 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I'm not really sure how that's relevant. Is the implication here that because the team seems unwilling to make a tough call on Wheeler, they need to make a shortsighted call on Kakko?

 

Short sighted is dealing 1st round picks for rentals every year.

[LindG1000]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Short sighted is dealing 1st round picks for rentals every year.

 

So trading Kakko for a rental would be foolish, yes?

[Sharpshooter]

Kakko and Jones are getting traded for Vatrano and Henrique. Vatrano is under contract, so he won't be a rental this time. I would consider doing that. I don't know if I would re-explore Tarasenko, even though he was fine here.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

So trading Kakko for a rental would be foolish, yes?

 

Absolutely. I hate those rumors

[jsm7302]

2 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Kakko and Jones are getting traded for Vatrano and Henrique. Vatrano is under contract, so he won't be a rental this time. I would consider doing that. I don't know if I would re-explore Tarasenko, even though he was fine here.

I'm thinking the same thing but Jones could be Gustafson.

[Sharpshooter]

Just now, jsm7302 said:

I'm thinking the same thing but Jones could be Gustafson.

Perhaps. It may be something along those lines.

[LindG1000]

8 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Othmann should not go directly to the top 6 as a rookie. I'm excited to see him in blue, but we've seen that movie before. He's probably not cutting into the roster this year either.

 

I was actually thinking Kakko hasn't made a compelling argument after 5 seasons to be untouchable. I'm reading he's too good/important/cheap of a 3rd line wing to trade, and simultaneously doesn't hold enough value to upgrade him. Honestly, I just interpret it as being too timid and scared to make a bold move. For every JT Miller traded too early, there's 100 players who don't pan out like that.

 

The single most important thing that Chris Drury has to do at this deadline is figure out how to make the Kreider-Zib connection work. We know it's not Wheeler, we know it's not Kakko, we aren't moving Lafreniere up. I'd try Othmann before making a deal. And if it isn't Othmann, they've got to go external.

 

And again, nobody is saying Kakko is untouchable. That's not the point at hand. The point is that he's playing the role he's being asked to play well, he hasn't lived up to his draft spot, and thus his value to this team is likely far higher than whatever you're getting for him. The only cases where that isn't true would be extraordinary situations that aren't clear enough yet.

 

Right now, here are the "choices" at RW that aren't currently on the roster and should be reasonably made available by their current teams:

 

Jakob Silfverberg 

Frank Vatrano

Vladimir Tarasenko

Anthony Duclair

Victor Olofsson

Kevin Labanc 

Anthony Beauvillier

Luke Kunin

Alexander Barabanov

Brandon Duhaime

 

We can eliminate everyone below Olofsson as not being top 6 caliber. We can also eliminate Oloffson on the grounds that he stinks.

 

You don't need to go to roster players to bring back Tarasenko. You don't need roster players if, for some reason, you want Silfverberg or to bring back Vatrano. These guys don't cost Kakko. They cost the late 1st and a middling prospect because that's what happens at every single deadline. 

 

[LindG1000]

13 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

Kakko and Jones are getting traded for Vatrano and Henrique. Vatrano is under contract, so he won't be a rental this time. I would consider doing that. I don't know if I would re-explore Tarasenko, even though he was fine here.

 

I'm gonna go on a limb here - why does Pat Verbeek do that? The Ducks are atrocious. They're getting another high pick; it's looking like rebuild 1 went pretty sideways with the core pieces and Drysdale gone - they're oddly directionless. They got Strome and Vatrano and a few others to try and win and that blew up in their faces. They're likely in a spot where they need to step back.

 

I don't know why Kakko appeals to them. They'd probably want someone a little further away.