Dreger Rangers Taking Calls on Kaapo Kakko

[Phil]

Not for the value of playing with the Brorons, no, but to play on the top line with increased minutes? Short of PP1 time, I'm not sure there's a better opportunity available to a guy like Kakko, who we're still waiting to show something.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

Not for the value of playing with the Brorons, no, but to play on the top line with increased minutes? Short of PP1 time, I'm not sure there's a better opportunity available to a guy like Kakko, who we're still waiting to show something.

No, you're still waiting for him to show something. He's already shown that he's a defensively reliable player who could chip in 40 points. 

 

He excels in that role as a third liner, and yet they move him to the top line for what reason?

 

Who do they have to replace him on the third line on the right side? The answer right now is no one. That's why there's no point in trading him. Just embrace what he is, a cheap, young defensive forward and if he taps into the offense it's just a bonus. 

 

Like I keep saying, you guys think this season is all he was, is, and will ever be. That doesn't take into account the progress he made up until this season, and there is progress, and it's extremely shortsighted. 

[Ozzy]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

No, you're still waiting for him to show something. He's already shown that he's a defensively reliable player who could chip in 40 points. 

 

He excels in that role as a third liner, and yet they move him to the top line for what reason?

 

Who do they have to replace him on the third line on the right side? The answer right now is no one. That's why there's no point in trading him. Just embrace what he is, a cheap, young defensive forward and if he taps into the offense it's just a bonus. 

 

Like I keep saying, you guys think this season is all he was, is, and will ever be. That doesn't take into account the progress he made up until this season, and there is progress, and it's extremely shortsighted. 

 

I think this is really the crux of it, Pete.

 

Right now, this is who he is.  He's fairly similar to Jesper Fast with more upside offensive potential...That's fine by me!

He's inexpensive to keep, responsible, and a fairly good skater with a better than average shot.  I like Kakko as a player...not as a #2 OA, but he was the concensus pick and he's not a bad NHL player...just not a generational talent.

 

I think that statement really hits the nail on the head.

[Sharpshooter]

As a second overall, he blows, but he's still pretty important to the team. When he wasn't in the lineup, the overall team defense took a bit of a hit.

[Phil]

No, that's the crux of who he is. It's not the crux of his issues relative to the goals of this team. A top-line scoring RW would mean more for their ability to win a Cup than a third-line defense-only checking RW.

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

No, that's the crux of who he is. It's not the crux of his issues relative to the goals of this team. A top-line scoring RW would mean more for their ability to win a Cup than a third-line defense-only checking RW.

 

I really don't see him as "defense-only".  He's got some pretty good offensive skill;  That snipe from a couple of games ago is a scorer's type shot. 

 

To me, Kakko is a 3rd line player, and a pretty good one.  I don't think there's anyone on the team, and probably very few in the league right now that can mesh with Krieder and Zibby.  I don't think Zibby shoots enough, and I don't "feel" Kreider playing hard enough consistently. 

 

Sometimes they do, but it hasn't been very consistent.  I like both of them as players, and it's been frustrating to watch Zibby pass up great looks from the slot. 

 

I know you like Kreider, Phil...but you have to admit there have been a lot of RW's we've tried there, and no one seems to prosper.  I think Vatrano was probably the best we've had over there with them in the last 3 seasons.

[Phil]

Just now, Ozzy said:

 

I really don't see him as "defense-only".  He's got some pretty good offensive skill;  That snipe from a couple of games ago is a scorer's type shot. 

 

To me, Kakko is a 3rd line player, and a pretty good one.  I don't think there's anyone on the team, and probably very few in the league right now that can mesh with Krieder and Zibby.  I don't think Zibby shoots enough, and I don't "feel" Kreider playing hard enough consistently. 

 

Sometimes they do, but it hasn't been very consistent.  I like both of them as players, and it's been frustrating to watch Zibby pass up great looks from the slot. 

 

I know you like Kreider, Phil...but you have to admit there have been a lot of RW's we've tried there, and no one seems to prosper.  I think Vatrano was probably the best we've had over there with them in the last 3 seasons.

 

OK, but he is defense-only. He's a career 0.39 P/GP player who topped out at 40 points in a season and has never scored 20 goals. In what world is this player anything but this? Would you prefer I refer to him as defense-first? Because I'm happy to since my point is that defense is primarily what he gives you.

 

I agree he's a good third-line player, but the team isn't in the collect all the best/most promising third-liners business like they're infinity stones. They're in the win-now business, and a top-line scoring RW means a helluva lot more to their ability to win than keeping good, not great, third-line checkers.

 

Also, Zib and Kreider both stink at 5v5, but I'll always, always, always blame the center on any line with 5v5 numbers this poor. The game goes through the middle of the ice. Great centers lift their wingers (which is why wingers rotate).

[Pete]

14 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

OK, but he is defense-only. He's a career 0.39 P/GP player who topped out at 40 points in a season and has never scored 20 goals. In what world is this player anything but this? Would you prefer I refer to him as defense-first? Because I'm happy to since my point is that defense is primarily what he gives you.

 

I agree he's a good third-line player, but the team isn't in the collect all the best/most promising third-liners business like they're infinity stones. They're in the win-now business, and a top-line scoring RW means a helluva lot more to their ability to win than keeping good, not great, third-line checkers.

 

Also, Zib and Kreider both stink at 5v5, but I'll always, always, always blame the center on any line with 5v5 numbers this poor. The game goes through the middle of the ice. Great centers lift their wingers (which is why wingers rotate).

But you're all over the place. What's your argument? 

 

Divest Kakko from the need for a top line right wing. They still need a third line right wing. Who is that guy? That's Kakko. 

 

If you're among the others who think someone is magically going to give us a top line right wing in exchange for a guy you spend so much time shitting on, well then good luck with that. 

 

Regarding Zib... He's tracking a career high in primary assists at 5v5 and Kreider is going to score 40.

 

It's like everybody is hell-bent on arguing how bad the team is yet the team isn't bad lol. 

Edited March 4 by Pete

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

But you're all over the place. What's your argument? 

 

Divest Kakko from the need for a top line right wing. They still need a third line right wing. Who is that guy? That's Kakko. 

 

If you're among the others who think someone is magically going to give us a top line right wing in exchange for a guy you spend so much time shitting on, well then good luck with that. 

 

That I can understand if they trade Kakko. I know it can feel like fence-sitting, but it isn't. I'm trying to be pragmatic about this whole thing given how entrenched he seems to be in deadline rumors.

 

I'd personally keep him and deal picks and B-prospects for rentals, but if they can get a legitimate longer-term fit (Alex Tuch would be my personal target), I'd have no problem reducing the third lines effectiveness to boost the first lines.

 

Or, to put it another way: I wouldn't personally trade him for Vatrano and Henrique , but I would dump his ass faster than you can blink for Alex Tuch.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

That I can understand if they trade Kakko. I know it can feel like fence-sitting, but it isn't. I'm trying to be pragmatic about this whole thing given how entrenched he seems to be in deadline rumors.

 

I'd personally keep him and deal picks and B-prospects for rentals, but if they can get a legitimate longer-term fit (Alex Tuch would be my personal target), I'd have no problem reducing the third lines effectiveness to boost the first lines.

That's a reasonable position to have, but understand a team light on right wings would be stupid to trade a right wing in a package to upgrade a right wing and then not be able to field a competitive third line.

 

Depth wins in the playoffs. That third line was depth. They robbed it to feed the first line and now neither line is working.

[Ozzy]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

OK, but he is defense-only. He's a career 0.39 P/GP player who topped out at 40 points in a season and has never scored 20 goals. In what world is this player anything but this? Would you prefer I refer to him as defense-first? Because I'm happy to since my point is that defense is primarily what he gives you.

 

I agree he's a good third-line player, but the team isn't in the collect all the best/most promising third-liners business like they're infinity stones. They're in the win-now business, and a top-line scoring RW means a helluva lot more to their ability to win than keeping good, not great, third-line checkers.

 

Also, Zib and Kreider both stink at 5v5, but I'll always, always, always blame the center on any line with 5v5 numbers this poor. The game goes through the middle of the ice. Great centers lift their wingers (which is why wingers rotate).

 

I'm not so sure he's even a "defense-first" guy.  He played pretty well with Cuylle and Brodz for a while, and he seemed to get shots, create more and drive the play to the net with them.  He scored a couple of goals and got a few assists, so I think he has more to him.

 

The kid is still really young and it's just hard for me to label him as a "defensive specialist", but I think we're still going to need players like him to win a Championship.  He has a decent enough 2-way player to make a big difference in a 7 game series.

 

I don't know, man...I see more in this kid.  He's having a down year, but there's no way on God's green I trade him away.  We need RW's and he's certainly got more upside than downside.  As a 3rd liner that's cheap...why trade him?

 

We're never going to get much value for him coming off a year like this, and he can only get better, I think.

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

That's a reasonable position to have, but understand a team light on right wings would be stupid to trade a right wing in a package to upgrade a right wing and then not be able to field a competitive third line.

 

Depth wins in the playoffs. That third line was depth. They robbed it to feed the first line and now neither line is working.

 

Depth does win, but I'd argue that's only true when you have a proper heirarchy. Top-line players neutralize one another and the team with the most depth can sometimes gain incremental advantage.

 

That's not true when your team's entire RW depth is all third and fourth-liners. That's why I keep saying that a scoring RW means more to them than another — good as he is where he is — third-liner.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

 

I'm not so sure he's even a "defense-first" guy.  He played pretty well with Cuylle and Brodz for a while, and he seemed to get shots, create more and drive the play to the net with them.  He scored a couple of goals and got a few assists, so I think he has more to him.

 

The kid is still really young and it's just hard for me to label him as a "defensive specialist", but I think we're still going to need players like him to win a Championship.  He has a decent enough 2-way player to make a big difference in a 7 game series.

 

I don't know, man...I see more in this kid.  He's having a down year, but there's no way on God's green I trade him away.  We need RW's and he's certainly got more upside than downside.  As a 3rd liner that's cheap...why trade him?

 

We're never going to get much value for him coming off a year like this, and he can only get better, I think.

 

We fundamentally disagree on what he is, then. I have a very difficult time buying him as anything other than a defense-first/defense-only third-line checker. He holds onto pucks well, but generates no offense, ever. He's never scored more than 40 points and he's never scored 20 goals. He's not pacing it this year, either. Offensively, there's no there there.

 

This is why I keep comparing him to guys like Benoit Pouliot.

[Sharpshooter]

What a depressing comparison for our top two pick. lol

[Ozzy]

Just now, Phil said:

 

We fundamentally disagree on what he is, then. I have a very difficult time buying him as anything other than a defense-first/defense-only third-line checker. He holds onto pucks well, but generates no offense, ever. He's never scored more than 40 points and he's never scored 20 goals. He's not pacing it this year, either. Offensively, there's no there there.

 

This is why I keep comparing him to guys like Benoit Pouliot.

 

I gotcha...That's cool.  I'm just not willing to close the book on a kid that's 23 years old....yet.  I'm chalking it up to a bad year.  I think he can, and will do better.

 

I really like the team we have right now, and I think we're one player away from getting a lot of this resolved.  I'm a pretty firm believer that if we can get a RW to play with Zib and Kreider, we'll be well on our way.

 

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

We fundamentally disagree on what he is, then. I have a very difficult time buying him as anything other than a defense-first/defense-only third-line checker. He holds onto pucks well, but generates no offense, ever. He's never scored more than 40 points and he's never scored 20 goals. He's not pacing it this year, either. Offensively, there's no there there.

 

This is why I keep comparing him to guys like Benoit Pouliot.

But there is a there there. You can see it when you watch him play. There's nothing worse than a player with no identity, and Kakko has one. He's great on the cycle and he's got a great shot. He's an underrated passer. He needs seasoning.

 

I also don't know where you're getting that 40 points in this league is "no offense"... That's just not true. 

 

And finally I would love everybody's take on Nick cousins who's putting up 10 points on Florida's second line yet many consider Florida to be the cream of the crop in the east. Sam Bennett is on pace for like 40 points on their second line. But keep telling me 40 points is nothing, defense only? Stop it. 

 

But here we are complaining about 40 point third liners lol. 

 

There's some serious blinders on to what's going on around the NHL. 

Edited March 4 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

All of Drury's moves have been geared towards winning with the current core NOW. Kakko isn't moving that needle. There are multiple upgrades who produce more than him.

[Pete]

29 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Depth does win, but I'd argue that's only true when you have a proper heirarchy. Top-line players neutralize one another and the team with the most depth can sometimes gain incremental advantage.

 

That's not true when your team's entire RW depth is all third and fourth-liners. That's why I keep saying that a scoring RW means more to them than another — good as he is where he is — third-liner.

The Tro line will score as much as they get scored on. The MZ line doesn't give up goals. The third line is going to be really important. While I'm not sold on JB as a 3C, the numbers say that line worked. 

[LindG1000]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

But you're all over the place. What's your argument? 

 

Divest Kakko from the need for a top line right wing. They still need a third line right wing. Who is that guy? That's Kakko. 

 

If you're among the others who think someone is magically going to give us a top line right wing in exchange for a guy you spend so much time shitting on, well then good luck with that. 

 

Regarding Zib... He's tracking a career high in primary assists at 5v5 and Kreider is going to score 40.

 

It's like everybody is hell-bent on arguing how bad the team is yet the team isn't bad lol. 

 

I could write a doctoral thesis on the collective trauma around the perception of how bad this team is. It's like we have endless PTSD from not winning the Cup every year.

[Pete]

13 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

All of Drury's moves have been geared towards winning with the current core NOW. Kakko isn't moving that needle. There are multiple upgrades who produce more than him.

There are upgrades for 1RW yes. I'm not convinced there are many upgrades for 3RW. 

[JHS]

13 hours ago, Pete said:

I don't get what this has to do with it. There were 3-4 goals directly as a result of him making plays and taking shots.

 

He's developing. He took steps back this year. Development isn't linear. 

He's developing?  What exactly is he doing that indicates he's gotten better at any aspect of the game?  He's slower, less impactful and seemingly more invisible each game this season.  3 to 4 goals directly because of his actions is exactly my point around such low standards!  The guy is the second overall pick, not some late round pick.  Can honestly anyone say that Matt Rempe in the 7 or so games he's played has not been a more impactful player than Kappo Kakko has been all year?? 

 

He's had time to develop and he's developed into a highly replaceable winger.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

There are upgrades for 1RW yes. I'm not convinced there are many upgrades for 3RW. 

I'm not sold on the 3rd line needing all defensive-minded/lacking offense players, which is what I think Kakko amounts to right now, so if I were operating with Drury's mindset of win now, I'm looking at getting 2 of these guys:

 

Eberle

Tarasenko

Vatrano

Duclair

Zucker

Reilly Smith

 

And a center who can produce to pick up some of Zib's slack at 5v5. Throwing one dart here isn't good enough for going all in. We are talking about a career year from Panarin. A legitimate, dominant 1st line that you're hoping maintains that status in the playoffs. If I had Drury's mindset, I'm throwing caution to the wind and going for it.

 

That's ponying up for a package like Eberle/Gourde, which almost certainly costs a nice piece like Kakko++. There's assets left to complement that kind of move to land another one of those wingers for the 3rd line to play with Cuylle and Gourde. A 3rd for Zucker or Duclair. A 2nd+ for Vatrano. Etc.

 

Again, I am saying what my view of a win now move would and should look like. Not what I would want to do. Riding an 11 point Kakko is just not being committed enough to winning now, and if that's the objective then it doesn't really matter what he is in 2-4 years.

[Phil]

52 minutes ago, Pete said:

But there is a there there. You can see it when you watch him play. There's nothing worse than a player with no identity, and Kakko has one. He's great on the cycle and he's got a great shot. He's an underrated passer. He needs seasoning.

 

I also don't know where you're getting that 40 points in this league is "no offense"... That's just not true. 

 

And finally I would love everybody's take on Nick cousins who's putting up 10 points on Florida's second line yet many consider Florida to be the cream of the crop in the east. Sam Bennett is on pace for like 40 points on their second line. But keep telling me 40 points is nothing, defense only? Stop it. 

 

But here we are complaining about 40 point third liners lol. 

 

There's some serious blinders on to what's going on around the NHL. 

 

40 points isn't no offense. Not scoring goals is. Goals matter more than points, generally speaking, and Kakko doesn't score goals at a reliable rate despite his good shot and despite being great on the cycle. And he's not pacing 40 points. He's topped out at 40 points. Based on his current pacing, he's set for around 14 goals and 23 points over an 82 game season. So, again, it's defense-first. Not offense.

 

Also, your Florida numbers are off. Bennett has 29 points in 49 games. That's just shy of a 50-point pace. He's also pacing just shy of 25 goals. Cousins is the LW on that line playing a Cooke-like role. They're heavily driven by the Barkov line, but their second line includes a 25-goal/50-point center and a 1.15 P/GP RW. So yeah, they're the cream of the crop in the East for a reason.

 

I'm also not complaining about a 40-point third-liner. I'm criticizing the offensive upside you see, that I don't. Because I'm a what have you done for me lately guy. I need to see it, not just see a handful of underlying elements that never translate in reality.

[Sharpshooter]

I'm sure the Ducks will be thrilled with him on their second or third line. 

[Phil]

He's a good player, he just doesn't score. This team needs a scoring RW. Badly.

 

According to Friedman, they called about Alex Tuch. I think he'd be perfect for Kreider-Zib.