Dreger Rangers Taking Calls on Kaapo Kakko

[jsm7302]

8 minutes ago, Phil said:

He's a good player, he just doesn't score. This team needs a scoring RW. Badly.

 

According to Friedman, they called about Alex Tuch. I think he'd be perfect for Kreider-Zib.

Well....for what it's worth....this will be the last game we will be saying this.

[Sharpshooter]

They'd have to give up a good haul for Tuch, but I'd totally do it. Great fit.

[LindG1000]

8 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

They'd have to give up a good haul for Tuch, but I'd totally do it. Great fit.

 

Sabres are never letting him go. He's the rare player that wants to play in Buffalo.

[Sharpshooter]

1 minute ago, LindG1000 said:

 

Sabres are never letting him go. He's the rare player that wants to play in Buffalo.

He's from around there, too, I believe. To their credit Buffalo has a lot of their good offensive players signed to nice multiyear deals.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, JHS said:

He's developing?  What exactly is he doing that indicates he's gotten better at any aspect of the game?  He's slower, less impactful and seemingly more invisible each game this season.  3 to 4 goals directly because of his actions is exactly my point around such low standards!  The guy is the second overall pick, not some late round pick.  Can honestly anyone say that Matt Rempe in the 7 or so games he's played has not been a more impactful player than Kappo Kakko has been all year?? 

 

He's had time to develop and he's developed into a highly replaceable winger.

I just think there's a lack of perspective here. I respect your opinion but I completely disagree. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

I'm not sold on the 3rd line needing all defensive-minded/lacking offense players, which is what I think Kakko amounts to right now, so if I were operating with Drury's mindset of win now, I'm looking at getting 2 of these guys:

 

Eberle

Tarasenko

Vatrano

Duclair

Zucker

Reilly Smith

 

And a center who can produce to pick up some of Zib's slack at 5v5. Throwing one dart here isn't good enough for going all in. We are talking about a career year from Panarin. A legitimate, dominant 1st line that you're hoping maintains that status in the playoffs. If I had Drury's mindset, I'm throwing caution to the wind and going for it.

 

That's ponying up for a package like Eberle/Gourde, which almost certainly costs a nice piece like Kakko++. There's assets left to complement that kind of move to land another one of those wingers for the 3rd line to play with Cuylle and Gourde. A 3rd for Zucker or Duclair. A 2nd+ for Vatrano. Etc.

 

Again, I am saying what my view of a win now move would and should look like. Not what I would want to do. Riding an 11 point Kakko is just not being committed enough to winning now, and if that's the objective then it doesn't really matter what he is in 2-4 years.

But this logic escapes me... He stinks for us, but he's a nice little piece for a trade package?

 

Can't have that both ways. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

40 points isn't no offense. Not scoring goals is. Goals matter more than points, generally speaking, and Kakko doesn't score goals at a reliable rate despite his good shot and despite being great on the cycle. And he's not pacing 40 points. He's topped out at 40 points. Based on his current pacing, he's set for around 14 goals and 23 points over an 82 game season. So, again, it's defense-first. Not offense.

 

Also, your Florida numbers are off. Bennett has 29 points in 49 games. That's just shy of a 50-point pace. He's also pacing just shy of 25 goals. Cousins is the LW on that line playing a Cooke-like role. They're heavily driven by the Barkov line, but their second line includes a 25-goal/50-point center and a 1.15 P/GP RW. So yeah, they're the cream of the crop in the East for a reason.

 

I'm also not complaining about a 40-point third-liner. I'm criticizing the offensive upside you see, that I don't. Because I'm a what have you done for me lately guy. I need to see it, not just see a handful of underlying elements that never translate in reality.

That's just extremely shortsighted and leaving no room for discussion.

 

Players need time to develop. I've already listed many who didn't hit their stride until they were 25 26 27. 

 

At the same time you're defending Bennett's 50 points as a second line center and then complaining about Mika's pacing around 80...

 

Again, I just think there's a lot of complaining for the sake of complaining about this team. 

Edited March 4 by Pete

[LindG1000]

It's letting perfect be the enemy of good. It's the "we'd never lose if..." instead of the "uh, we're pretty fuckin great and should be thinking about adding one or two pieces to try for the Cup" mentality. And it's crazy. Every great team loses games sometimes.  The 90s Bulls lost games. The 1927 Yankees lost games. Hell, our beloved 94 Rangers lost fuckin 7 playoff games.  

 

Kakko isn't a great RW1 right now. He's a fuckin phenomenal RW3. Talent. To. Task. We don't need him to be the #2 pick. We need him to be the possession monster/forechecker/pain in the ass to get off the puck guy. And damnit, he can do that.

 

Get a RW so Vesey isn't on the first line and ideally get Mika going. If the price is right, get a C that isn't Brodzinski for the 3rd. And stop bitching about this team's relatively minor flaws.

 

 

[Phil]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

That's just extremely shortsighted and leaving no room for discussion.

 

Players need time to develop. I've already listed many who didn't hit their stride until they were 25 26 27. 

 

At the same time you're defending Bennett's 50 points as a second line center and then complaining about Mika's pacing around 80...

 

Again, I just think there's a lot of complaining for the sake of complaining about this team. 

 

Players do need time to develop, but this isn't a development league. Again, I'm not pushing him out the door. He's fine in their bottom-six right now. He's pretty miserable as a top-six player because he doesn't produce. The Rangers need production there because they're going for it. That's the issue in a nut shell. If a player like Tuch can be had, I think he provides them a better chance to win now, even if Kakko ultimately finds his stride at 25, 26, or 27 (or even beyond).

 

It's not black and white. It's relative to who we're talking about trading him for because these are two sometimes parallel but otherwise separate goals/tracks

 

Track 1: Develop young players

Track 2: Win

 

They don't always converge.

[BrooksBurner]

13 minutes ago, Pete said:

But this logic escapes me... He stinks for us, but he's a nice little piece for a trade package?

 

Can't have that both ways. 

 

He doesn't stink. He's a decent, cheap 3rd liner with some potential in the years ahead. He's not devoid of value just because he isn't as good as the other guys right now.

 

For Drury, I have to image he's viewing through the lens of committing to winning now while the iron is hot, and less viewing through the lens about what Kakko turns out to be 2-4 years down the road. Likewise, non-playoff teams look through that 2-4 year lens instead of now.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

It's letting perfect be the enemy of good. It's the "we'd never lose if..." instead of the "uh, we're pretty fuckin great and should be thinking about adding one or two pieces to try for the Cup" mentality. And it's crazy. Every great team loses games sometimes.  The 90s Bulls lost games. The 1927 Yankees lost games. Hell, our beloved 94 Rangers lost fuckin 7 playoff games.  

 

Kakko isn't a great RW1 right now. He's a fuckin phenomenal RW3. Talent. To. Task. We don't need him to be the #2 pick. We need him to be the possession monster/forechecker/pain in the ass to get off the puck guy. And damnit, he can do that.

 

Get a RW so Vesey isn't on the first line and ideally get Mika going. If the price is right, get a C that isn't Brodzinski for the 3rd. And stop bitching about this team's relatively minor flaws.

 

 

 

Disagree wit this. He's capable, yes, but there's absolutely nothing phenomenal about what he brings right now.

[BrooksBurner]

If Kakko were a 3rd round pick he'd likely have been traded already and the fans wouldn't care

[Phil]

Yup. If we're guilty of raining on the parade, y'all are guilty of hyperbolizing mediocrity. He's a good, not great, third-line checker. Full stop. "Phenomenal" is not a term that applies to him, ever, for anything. If he did anything phenomenally, he'd be so much more than he is by this point. Let's all agree to meet back at reality?

[JHS]

43 minutes ago, Pete said:

I just think there's a lack of perspective here. I respect your opinion but I completely disagree. 

The perspective is he's already had multiple seasons with the team and he *might* get 25 points this year.  He's a second overall pick.  I get that points are not the only measure of "talent" but there is just nothing about hsi current game that stands out in anyway.  The main issue is also as a tradeable commodity, the longer he goes as being essentially useless the lower return we get.

[jsm7302]

21 minutes ago, Phil said:

Yup. If we're guilty of raining on the parade, y'all are guilty of hyperbolizing mediocrity. He's a good, not great, third-line checker. Full stop. "Phenomenal" is not a term that applies to him, ever, for anything. If he did anything phenomenally, he'd be so much more than he is by this point. Let's all agree to meet back at reality?

Not the noun id use for him. I'd go more with defensive forward. 

[Pete]

34 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Disagree wit this. He's capable, yes, but there's absolutely nothing phenomenal about what he brings right now.

What would your expectation of a phenomenal 3RW be?

[Br4d]

33 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

He doesn't stink. He's a decent, cheap 3rd liner with some potential in the years ahead. He's not devoid of value just because he isn't as good as the other guys right now.

 

For Drury, I have to image he's viewing through the lens of committing to winning now while the iron is hot, and less viewing through the lens about what Kakko turns out to be 2-4 years down the road. Likewise, non-playoff teams look through that 2-4 year lens instead of now.

 

Also his value to the Rangers is potentially very different from his value to a non-contender.

 

The Rangers don't want to put him on line 1 or 2 because he's not producing right now.  A non-contender could easily be willing to put him in the top 6 for the rest of the season and give him power play time because they don't have the season potentially riding on his performance there.

 

If the Ducks are offering Vatrano for Kakko right now I think the Rangers have to be willing to listen to that offer, maybe making minor alterations around the margins of the deal.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

What would your expectation of a phenomenal 3RW be?

 

I know you're not asking me, but here's my list: Jesper Fast.

 

1. Moves up and down the lineup as needed, never skipping a beat.
2. Compliments skilled players and grinders alike.

3. First PK unit.

4. Flirts with 20 goals.

[Pete]

38 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Players do need time to develop, but this isn't a development league. Again, I'm not pushing him out the door. He's fine in their bottom-six right now. He's pretty miserable as a top-six player because he doesn't produce. The Rangers need production there because they're going for it. That's the issue in a nut shell. If a player like Tuch can be had, I think he provides them a better chance to win now, even if Kakko ultimately finds his stride at 25, 26, or 27 (or even beyond).

 

It's not black and white. It's relative to who we're talking about trading him for because these are two sometimes parallel but otherwise separate goals/tracks

 

Track 1: Develop young players

Track 2: Win

 

They don't always converge.

Ok...so, again... 

• Kakko isn't a 1RW right now, he's a 3RW and a very good one
• Kakko isn't getting you Tuch. The package would be much larger, and if he's as bad as you say he is, he isn't the centerpiece of it, so why made him a throw in when...
• There's no 3RW to replace him currently

If you can package him for an upgrade, great. That goes for anyone on the team, basically. I just don't see how the team get's better or more playoff ready with a hole at 3RW.

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

 

I know you're not asking me, but here's my list: Jesper Fast.

 

1. Moves up and down the lineup as needed, never skipping a beat.
2. Compliments skilled players and grinders alike.

3. First PK unit.

4. Flirts with 20 goals.

So... 

1. Your first bullet of a 3RW is that he also be a top 6 RW?
2. OK, I'll give you that but it's very, very nebulous, I just don't see the point in debating it
3. Kakko can, and has PK'd. He just isn't right now.
4. He has.

Give me the name of this 3RW from another team that's also young, and cheap?

[Pete]

18 minutes ago, JHS said:

The perspective is he's already had multiple seasons with the team and he *might* get 25 points this year.  He's a second overall pick.  I get that points are not the only measure of "talent" but there is just nothing about hsi current game that stands out in anyway.  The main issue is also as a tradeable commodity, the longer he goes as being essentially useless the lower return we get.

Like I said, I respect where you're coming from, but I disagree. His value will never be lower than it is now, anyway. So there really is no reason to trade him especially when the team is lacking RWs anyway.

Edited March 4 by Pete

[Br4d]

Just to make it clear.  This is not a JT Miller or Pavel Buchnevich situation.  Those guys had already established themselves as good NHL players when we traded them.

 

Kakko has established nothing yet, largely due to the fact that he did not follow up his only NHL worthy season last year with another one this year.  He could be back in Finland in two seasons and nobody would be surprised given how things have turned out so far.

[Phil]

Just now, Pete said:

Ok...so, again... 

• Kakko isn't a 1RW right now, he's a 3RW and a very good one
• Kakko isn't getting you Tuch. The package would be much larger, and if he's as bad as you say he is, he isn't the centerpiece of it, so why made him a throw in when...
• There's no 3RW to replace him currently

If you can package him for an upgrade, great. That goes for anyone on the team, basically. I just don't see how the team get's better or more playoff ready with a hole at 3RW.

 

1. Correct, minus the "very." He's good. Why can't we just agree here?

2. Agreed — never suggested it was one-for-one. I'd give up way  more than just Kakko in a deal for Tuch. Kakko is the roster replacement in that deal. I'd add Othmann (future promise) and a 1st.

3. Correct — so get one. You want to talk about something that's not very difficult to do? Find a 25-point winger (that's what Kakko is this season) to play on your third line. Alexander Barabanov. Brandon Duhaime. Marcus Johansson. Nick Bjugstad.

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

So... 

1. Your first bullet of a 3RW is that he also be a top 6 RW?
2. OK, I'll give you that but it's very, very nebulous, I just don't see the point in debating it
3. Kakko can, and has PK'd. He just isn't right now.
4. He has.

Give me the name of this 3RW from another team that's also young, and cheap?

 

1. Yes, moves up and down the lineup as needed. Short-term injuries or line shuffling without dramatic drop-offs in team production. Kakko doesn't bring this (right now). Maybe he will in the future.

2. OK

3. OK, but he doesn't. Takes away from the idea of him being a "phenomenal" 3RW.

4. Once. Not consistently. It's looking like an outlier, too. Pacing 14 goals. Career average is 15 goals per 82 games.

 

Also, I don't care about "young." I care about replacing him with someone who can do the same role/job he does now. Already gave you a list above. Could provide even more, probably. It's really not difficult to find a 25-point winger who doesn't kill penalties and plays pretty exclusively on your third line.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

1. Correct, minus the "very." He's good. Why can't we just agree here?

2. Agreed — never suggested it was one-for-one. I'd give up way  more than just Kakko in a deal for Tuch. Kakko is the roster replacement in that deal. I'd add Othmann (future promise) and a 1st.

3. Correct — so get one. You want to talk about something that's not very difficult to do? Find a 25-point winger (that's what Kakko is this season) to play on your third line. Alexander Barabanov. Brandon Duhaime. Marcus Johansson. Nick Bjugstad.

Or...hear me out here...Just trade futures for a 1RW.