Alexis Lafreniere and the Rangers Reach a Critical Point

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

Did he forget how to play hockey? No.

 

Did he ever know how to play when he wasn't bigger, stronger and faster than his competition? Probably also no.

 

Here he's a JAG. He's average sized, average speed, average hands, average skating, below average conditioning, etc.

I really do think that the 10 month gap between games during COVID for him really fucked him up. If his only problem is strength and conditioning, that can be fixed though. I worry there's more to it than that. With that said though, Unless we get blown away by an offer (think Petterson as was mentioned earlier) I don't think its worth it. We won't get anything in return for him that helps us long-term that we don't have from within/can actually fit. The ceiling will remain incredibly high for him for a long time.

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, BlairBettsBlocksEverything said:

I really do think that the 10 month gap between games during COVID for him really fucked him up. If his only problem is strength and conditioning, that can be fixed though. I worry there's more to it than that. With that said though, Unless we get blown away by an offer (think Petterson as was mentioned earlier) I don't think its worth it. We won't get anything in return for him that helps us long-term that we don't have from within/can actually fit. The ceiling will remain incredibly high for him for a long time.

 

 

 

 

Yea, hear that. Unless you're trading him for someone wlse who can't crack the lineup, like Byfield.

[RangersIn7]

It’s been basically a 4-5 year process with Chytil and Kakko.

 

Its going to be the same or similar with LaFreniere. I think it will work out to less actually. 3-4 years. 

At some point this season, he’s going to get on a roll. 
 

My point is… 80-100 games from now, you’ll really like where he’s at. 

[RangersIn7]

It’s been basically a 4-5 year process with Chytil and Kakko.

 

Its going to be the same or similar with LaFreniere. I think it will work out to less actually. 3-4 years. 

At some point this season, he’s going to get on a roll. 
 

My point is… 80-100 games from now, you’ll really like where he’s at. 
 

And you can keep him relatively cheap in the meantime.

 

I don’t think the scouts were wrong.

I don’t think he’s a problem.

I think he’s been brought up the wrong way.

And honestly that isn’t anyones fault.

Nothing about his NHL path has been conventional for guys like him.

Hes still a child.

 

Hes so far away from a broken prospect.

The only thing that really makes him that is us talking about it. 

Watch.

Eventually it clicks.

 

 

 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Kuzmenko is the only one that's really interesting from Canucks, but I think he only plays LW. Not sure about his next contract either. 26y old UFA with only one season in the NHL (pacing 35g, 70p). If he had one more year at his current salary I might've done a deal around him for Lafreniere.

[Pete]

48 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

It’s been basically a 4-5 year process with Chytil and Kakko.

 

Its going to be the same or similar with LaFreniere. I think it will work out to less actually. 3-4 years. 

At some point this season, he’s going to get on a roll. 
 

My point is… 80-100 games from now, you’ll really like where he’s at. 

We're in the middle of year 3 already...

[RangersIn7]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

We're in the middle of year 3 already...

I’d simply advise you to keep watching and allow for that amount of time.

[Cash or Czech]

43 minutes ago, Pete said:

We're in the middle of year 3 already...

 

And Kakko has shown this level or glimpses of this play in the years prior, just without putting up the points. Lafreniere has shown...?

[Morphinity 2.0]

1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

Hes still a child.

 

Bro, he's 21 years old! 

[The Dude]

14 hours ago, Keirik said:

There’s nothing snarky in what I’m saying. Nothing at all. I’m not understanding how a guy this broken is going to command so much just because he’s a 1st overall and you’re posting a lot of contradictions. I, along with others, are pointing that out. The term carries some clout, but not after three seasons in the book. Every team has a scouting report, film, data. They see the same you see. Yet you seem to think he’s going for a pretty big haul just because he’s 1OA on paper. He’s a low commodity right now ONLY valued because of where’s he’s drafted. 
 

You compared Alf to Drouin and said he’s “essentially” the same. Drouin had 52 points and was traded in the offseason. If Alf sniffs 40 points this year he’s going nowhere let alone 50. If he doesn’t come anywhere near that he’s not bringing back some serious return, which makes trading him even worse of a decision.

I'm not seeing anyone else pointing that out. Infact it seems people think Boeser isn't even in the ballpark as far as being a good enough return.  Positionally, I think it's pretty much in the ballpark of what people can expect in return.

 

Lafrenière hasn't busted yet.  People think he can be better in the right circumstances.  Me included. 

 

Drouin was used as a top 6 player when he put up 52 points. 

Averaging around 17 minutes. Their output isn't what makes them "essentially" the same. 

 

Besides being annoyed about his no-show fir his AHL assignment, Tampa really didn't need him. They had forwards (mainly C and LW). They needed D.

 

That was pretty much the point.

 

They traded him for a team need.  There was no secret to Drouin being on the outs. His attitude stunk. He wanted out. They wanted out. His value wasn't of a 53 point kid. It was an asshole who had to go. Which I think is equal value to a kid on the verge of busting, due to organizational failure to develop him. 

 

 

 

 

[RangersIn7]

25 minutes ago, Morphinity 2.0 said:

Bro, he's 21 years old! 

Exactly 

[Scott]

4 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

It’s been basically a 4-5 year process with Chytil and Kakko.

 

Its going to be the same or similar with LaFreniere. I think it will work out to less actually. 3-4 years. 

At some point this season, he’s going to get on a roll. 
 

My point is… 80-100 games from now, you’ll really like where he’s at. 

The only roll he'll get on is a jelly or buttered roll at this point.  The bar has been lowered so far already it's basically laying on the ground. He's not even the most productive pick we got in the first round at this point he's going to get lapped by Schneider. But he had pep in his step last night apparently. 

 

I didn't do the math but it appears there's a handful of guys putting up more points per game since being drafted than this guy in many less games of experience. But we can continue to make excuses for his lack of productivity overall. 

 

Sort this by points for grins

 

I do think we are stuck with the guy so there's no pleasure in him continuing to be our lead participation trophy candidate. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by jsrangers

[Pete]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

I'm not seeing anyone else pointing that out. Infact it seems people think Boeser isn't even in the ballpark as far as being a good enough return.  Positionally, I think it's pretty much in the ballpark of what people can expect in return.

 

Lafrenière hasn't busted yet.  People think he can be better in the right circumstances.  Me included. 

 

Drouin was used as a top 6 player when he put up 52 points. 

Averaging around 17 minutes. Their output isn't what makes them "essentially" the same. 

 

Besides being annoyed about his no-show fir his AHL assignment, Tampa really didn't need him. They had forwards (mainly C and LW). They needed D.

 

That was pretty much the point.

 

They traded him for a team need.  There was no secret to Drouin being on the outs. His attitude stunk. He wanted out. They wanted out. His value wasn't of a 53 point kid. It was an asshole who had to go. Which I think is equal value to a kid on the verge of busting, due to organizational failure to develop him.

This isn't exactly accurate. He refused an AHL assignment, and then he went, and came back. But the season before he was traded, he not only had 53 points but 14 points in 17 playoff games.

 

He was playing the best hockey of his career at a point where TB would have to make choice on who to protect during expansion, Sergachev didn't need to be protected, so they made their decision. Montreal obviously felt Drouin had arrived. Lafreniere is not there, not even close.

 

I don't say all this to try and call you out personally, but just to call attention to the plethora of circumstances surrounding the move and why it's hard to compare situations.

 

Lafreniere isn't playing his best hockey or an attractive trade target, there's no roster mitigation needed due to expansion, etc. It's just a totally different situation.

 

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that teams don't just walk away from 1OAs...But the 1OA's that didn't pan out—You have to wonder if those teams regret not moving those players and getting something back instead of letting their value diminish year after year.

 

Yea, NHL teams "don't do" such and such, but no one ever accused many NHL teams of being smart.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

4 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I'm hoping he can turn into a "Marchand" type player.  Laff does have some spunk to his game.

 

Marchand had all the same traits: Average speed, average skating, and it's smaller than Cornelius.  He has great hands though, especially around the net....also great vision.  The question is, can we develop that in Yukon?

[Scott]

4 hours ago, Ozzy said:

I'm hoping he can turn into a "Marchand" type player.  Laff does have some spunk to his game.

 

Marchand had all the same traits: Average speed, average skating, and it's smaller than Cornelius.  He has great hands though, especially around the net....also great vision.  The question is, can we develop that in Yukon?

Heavy day drinking!, good for you my friend. Just get home safely after tying one on this size. Cheers!

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

This isn't exactly accurate. He refused an AHL assignment, and then he went, and came back. But the season before he was traded, he not only had 53 points but 14 points in 17 playoff games.

 

He was playing the best hockey of his career at a point where TB would have to make choice on who to protect during expansion, Sergachev didn't need to be protected, so they made their decision. Montreal obviously felt Drouin had arrived. Lafreniere is not there, not even close.

 

I don't say all this to try and call you out personally, but just to call attention to the plethora of circumstances surrounding the move and why it's hard to compare situations.

 

Lafreniere isn't playing his best hockey or an attractive trade target, there's no roster mitigation needed due to expansion, etc. It's just a totally different situation.

 

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that teams don't just walk away from 1OAs...But the 1OA's that didn't pan out—You have to wonder if those teams regret not moving those players and getting something back instead of letting their value diminish year after year.

 

Yea, NHL teams "don't do" such and such, but no one ever accused many NHL teams of being smart.

Point taken. But Drouin had requested a trade in 2015, Tampa was riding it out and supposedly had a deal in place, which set off the no-show to the AHL.  He was on the block because he asked to be. I don't think expansion played as big of a part as you say. 

 

But your point about Montreal believing Drouin had arrived is a good observation. They believed in him and took the risk on his poor attitude. He atleast put up some numbers.

 

Lafrenières next contract kinda lines up with the TB expansion issue you brought up though (i thinkhe was goingno matter what). I don't think those negotiations are going to go well.  I could see a trade demand put out there, which lowers his possible return in trade. I know you dont think an offersheet is a likely situation.  But I do. He's prime for a 3-4 mill per offer, which gives the Rangers garbage in compensation. It's a no lose situation for a bottom feeder team looking to collect possible diamonds.  This also weighs on why they should seriously think about moving him. 

 

Though I think teams believe Lafreniere just needs a fresh start, it may not hold as much weight as a player who just produced (as you pointed out in Drouin) yet is an asshole.  I'm not really sure. What Lafrenière has produced is really unimaginable. I really think teams that have the time and opportunity for him, would still pay close to premium price. Kid really just needs a chance at major minutes with a long leash. I think most people see that. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, jsrangers said:

Heavy day drinking!, good for you my friend. Just get home safely after tying one on this size. Cheers!

 

...now you know why you make the power rankings list!!  LOL

Edited January 4, 2023 by Ozzy

[Keirik]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

This isn't exactly accurate. He refused an AHL assignment, and then he went, and came back. But the season before he was traded, he not only had 53 points but 14 points in 17 playoff games.

 

He was playing the best hockey of his career at a point where TB would have to make choice on who to protect during expansion, Sergachev didn't need to be protected, so they made their decision. Montreal obviously felt Drouin had arrived. Lafreniere is not there, not even close.

 

I don't say all this to try and call you out personally, but just to call attention to the plethora of circumstances surrounding the move and why it's hard to compare situations.

 

Lafreniere isn't playing his best hockey or an attractive trade target, there's no roster mitigation needed due to expansion, etc. It's just a totally different situation.

 

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that teams don't just walk away from 1OAs...But the 1OA's that didn't pan out—You have to wonder if those teams regret not moving those players and getting something back instead of letting their value diminish year after year.

 

Yea, NHL teams "don't do" such and such, but no one ever accused many NHL teams of being smart.

A lot of good here. I actually kind of was thinking something similar to you mentioning Byfield. I could see a scenario of a Laf for Byfield, or even Laf possibly for Shane Wright. It’s a more potential for potential and in both of those cases, we are talking about prospects that aren’t NHL ready vs a still young Laf that not only is NHL ready, but playoff experienced and showed a few bright spots here and there.

 

 Personally, I think this is all moot. He’s not getting traded. He’s getting bridged. There is more to gain in patience. 

[josh]

PP points the major difference. Drouin had 2, almost 3, seasons of 20 pp points 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, josh said:

PP points the major difference. Drouin had 2, almost 3, seasons of 20 pp points 

But you don't like guys who score on the power play. You've been bitching about Mika for years. 

[josh]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

But you don't like guys who score on the power play. You've been bitching about Mika for years. 

yup. Exactly why I’ve wanted the kids to get PP time. 

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, josh said:

yup. Exactly why I’ve wanted the kids to get PP time. 

So then why do you complain about guys who score on the power play LOL? 

 

Also it's a really thin argument to point at one thing that he didn't get as the excuse for him being where he is today. I can just as easily say he wasn't getting the same poutine he was getting at home, and that's the reason he stinks. 

 

When we wanted him to go down to the AHL where he would be a top line player getting a ton of power play time, getting his confidence up, the excuse was that it was Hartford. Hartford bad. No Hartford. He needs to be in NHL languishing. 

 

So he came in and he didn't get power play time because he was already on a good power play team and he didn't get top line time because he was already on a team with really good players, so he is where he is. Who cares?

 

Point is, what are they gonna do about it? 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Pete

[josh]

Complaining about guys scoring in the PP? What are you talking about. This is some random ass shit a wife would hold on to from eight years ago when she misinterpreted a joke

[josh]

Yes, he’s under performing.

I’ve said for years to get them PP time to build their confidence and get them going. It would be much more effective than ever sending Kakko or Lafreniere to Hartford. They need to be put in a spot to be successful. That means offensive opportunities. 
they have plenty of chances to spread out those opportunities. Zibanejad will get his. Panarin still gets his. And the kids get a bit more.

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, josh said:

Complaining about guys scoring in the PP? What are you talking about. This is some random ass shit a wife would hold on to from eight years ago when she misinterpreted a joke

Nah there was nothing to misinterpret. You bitched about Zibenejad "only" being able to score on the the PP. 

 

You just don't like the receipts. 

 

10 minutes ago, josh said:

Yes, he’s under performing.

I’ve said for years to get them PP time to build their confidence and get them going. It would be much more effective than ever sending Kakko or Lafreniere to Hartford.

That's certainly one POV. Sure. It's certainly one plan. It's not the only plan, not was it a plan that was available because the PP was good. You don't fuck with it just to get rookies ice time, when you're a competitive team. 

 

Quote

They need to be put in a spot to be successful. That means offensive opportunities. 

they have plenty of chances to spread out those opportunities. Zibanejad will get his. Panarin still gets his. And the kids get a bit more.

And yet a guy like Adam Fox played himself onto the PP by playing well and creating offense when opportunities weren't carved out for him.

 

Look of the 4 kids (Laf, Kakko, Chytil, Krav) no one has been put into more offensive opportunities and done less with it than Lafreniere.