It's Time to Talk About Mika Zibanejad

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

So we're going into the playoffs expecting Panarin to keep his 0.58 G/PG and 0.88 A/PG (1.47 P/PG) while his career playoff average is 0.81 P/PG? That's a recipe for disappointment right there.

 

We're not winning anything if Zibanejad (and his line) doesn't step it up in the playoffs. We're gonna need 2021 Zib (10 goals, 24 points in 20 games) and not 2022 Zib (1g, 4p in 7 games).

 

We said the same about Fox and Shesterkin earlier in the season (and Panarin before the season). We're not winning anything unless our best and most important players (G, 1D, 1C + Panarin) are playing their best hockey in the playoffs. The other 3 are doing it right now, Zib needs to do the same.

Think of it as Trocheck and Zib switched statistical places this season.

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Think of it as Trocheck and Zib switched statistical places this season.

 

Zib has 12 EVS goals in 78 games.  That's bordering on 3rd line play at EVS.

 

I've posted this before but I'll say it again for context:  Zib was not a goal scorer against good teams last year.  He's not a goal scorer against anybody this season.

 

That's a classic step down over two seasons now.

Edited April 8 by Br4d

[Pete]

Dupe.

Edited April 8 by Pete

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Zib has 12 EVS goals in 78 games.  That's bordering on 3rd line play at EVS.

 

I've posted this before but I'll say it again for context:  Zib was not a goal scorer against good teams last year.  He's not a goal scorer against anybody this season.

 

That's a classic step down over two seasons now.

He's having a bad goal scoring year. There's four games left. How long are you going to keep going on about it? It's not affecting the team. This is probably one of his best all around seasons in terms of elevating Kreider and his own defensive play. Again, setting career marks in primary assist at 5 on 5. 

 

We already talked about how your stats from last year are flawed. I'm not going to keep breaking it down. 

 

He's not a third liner, he doesn't play the role of a third liner, and to label him as such as ridiculous. 

Edited April 8 by Pete

[Br4d]

I never had a discussion with you about how Zib scoring 4 goals in 39 games at EVS against the teams that made the playoffs last year was a flawed stat.

 

You may have posted a response to that stat when I published it as you are wont to do when a fly breezes by but I certainly have never accepted that Zib's inability to score at even strength against the good teams was anything but a reflection of his declining skills.

 

This season of course is the clincher because that status has now extended to almost all the opponents.

 

If Zib was not on the power play you would never post a response about EVS play because the evidence would be crystal clear and impossible to dissemble about.

Edited April 8 by Br4d

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Br4d said:

I never had a discussion with you about how Zib scoring 4 goals in 39 games at EVS against the teams that made the playoffs last year was a flawed stat.

 

You may have posted a response to that stat when I published it as you are wont to do when a fly breezes by but I certainly have never accepted that Zib's inability to score at even strength against the good teams was anything but a reflection of his declining skills.

 

This season of course is the clincher because that status has now extended to almost all the opponents.

 

If Zib was not on the power play you would never post a response about EVS play because the evidence would be crystal clear and impossible to dissemble about.

"You might have rebutted it, but because I didn't like it, I ignored it." 

[Br4d]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

"You might have rebutted it, but because I didn't like it, I ignored it." 

 

You generally rebut by statement with no supporting facts cited for your argument.  Tactic 2 is to move the goal posts.  Tactic 3 is to shift to a related but not coherent side topic.

 

When you say: "I don't agree with your statement" or something similar and that is all you say at that point you are not worth arguing with because it's all just hot air emanating from your quadrant.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that if you want to be an influencer you need to work harder at it than you do.

Edited April 8 by Br4d

[Pete]

Just now, Br4d said:

You generally rebut by statement with no supporting facts cited for your argument.

I stopped reading here because it's comically inaccurate, like most of your takes. 

 

But you go have a nice day. 

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

 

Zib has 12 EVS goals in 78 games.  That's bordering on 3rd line play at EVS.

 

I've posted this before but I'll say it again for context:  Zib was not a goal scorer against good teams last year.  He's not a goal scorer against anybody this season.

 

That's a classic step down over two seasons now.

I get what you’re saying.

 

And to be fair, I’ll say that while I absolutely think Mika is a true 1C, he’s not in the same tier of 1C’s as MacKinnon, McDavid, Matthews, and a few others, but rather is just a step below them. 

 

But put and view it all in context: 
 

 

They are about to set a franchise record for both wins and points in a season… 

Win a division title 

Potentially win the Conference and the President’s Trophy. 
And will go into the playoffs as one of the favorites to win the Cup.

 

 

It hasn’t effected them. 
 

And let’s be real. He’s drawn a good deal of assignments this year and played big minutes vs top players on the other side. 

Which has helped the Panarin-Trochek-LaFreniere line a lot. 
And it’s also helping the Cuylle-Wennberg-Kakko line too. That line especially. Even when they aren’t scoring. They’ve been excellent and look at the matchups they draw cause Mika and CK play a ton vs the other teams top line. His deployment may actually have something to do with that, but hard to quantify.

 

He’s approaching 30 goals and 70 points, In an off year. Playing 20 minutes per night. And is a plus player by a good margin.

 

It hasn’t hurt them at all. 

[Sharpshooter]

I just hope it's still good Mika going into the playoffs, they're really going to need him. We know he's always been hot and cold. Look at the Penguins series a couple of years ago. He was dead for a good portion of that series and then came alive and was a huge reason they won that series. He can produce against good teams, it's just a matter of which Zibanejad you're going to get. He, Panarin and Kreider have had their moments where they've been great, but then really bad. It's kind of one issue I've had with the core of this team. Yeah, they have good players, but too up and down. This year's team is a different animal and Panarin has been a man possessed, so we'll see if they can finally be consistent as a group, not just Mika.

[Br4d]

Lost a bit in the conversation is that often a team's 3rd center is the best defensive center playing on a checking line that tries to matchup against the other team's #1 line.

 

That kind of describes Zib's line pretty well at this point, albeit Zib gets lots of PP and PK time also.

[Long live the King]

48 minutes ago, Br4d said:

Lost a bit in the conversation is that often a team's 3rd center is the best defensive center playing on a checking line that tries to matchup against the other team's #1 line.

 

That kind of describes Zib's line pretty well at this point, albeit Zib gets lots of PP and PK time also.

 

Selke voters would disagree with you.

[RangersIn7]

I think theres also some other significant stuff that gets completely lost when it comes to Mika.

 

You can talk about the ES stuff till you’re blue in the face.

 

But let’s take it all into consideration.

And I’m talking over the last 3 years.

 

Over the past 3 seasons…

 

The Rangers have won 152 games and counting.

Mika has played 240 games and counting and has 240 points and counting.

94 goals and counting.

 

So he’s been a Point per game player as the 1C on a team that wins 50+ games over 3 seasons.

And as much as we harp on his lack of ES production or whatever, he’s +68 in that span.

And doing it while he’s playing 20 minutes per night against other team’s top players.

 

Wanna talk about special teams… ok. Let’s talk.

 

Over the last 3 seasons, the Rangers have basically had a top-5 PP and a top-5 to top-10 PK.

Over that time, Mika has acted as their primary C on their top PK unit, and the primary shooter/trigger man on their top PP unit.

He’s logged huge ice time on those special teams units, and that ice time comes vs the other teams best players when they’re killing a penalty and vs the other teams top defenders when they’re on the PP. 

 

Obviously other guys contribute to those units and their success. But he’s right there, in the mix, in a MAJOR ROLE on units that have been extremely successful. 
 

His two-way, all situation, production and effectiveness has been excellent and a primary factor in the success they’ve had. 
 

 

 

We can’t act like his contribution on special teams doesn’t count. Or make a huge impact.

Cause it does.

 

Being a great player and finisher on the PP is a hugely important and skill.

He has it.

Being a great penalty killer is a wonderfully important and useful skill.
He has it.

Playing +68 hockey in 20 minutes a night over 3 seasons, despite not having overwhelming numbers at ES while playing vs top players is tremendous.

 

 

 

He’s a fantastic player and the best C we’ve had since Eric Lindros or Mess. 
 

Look at everything.

Or you’ll miss the picture.

 

Stop looking for McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Crosby, etc.

 

Hes not that.

Only those guys are that. 
 

He’s outstanding 

Edited April 9 by RangersIn7

[Pete]

38 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

I think theres also some other significant stuff that gets completely lost when it comes to Mika.

 

You can talk about the ES stuff till you’re blue in the face.

 

But let’s take it all into consideration.

And I’m talking over the last 3 years.

 

Over the past 3 seasons…

 

The Rangers have won 152 games and counting.

Mika has played 240 games and counting and has 240 points and counting.

94 goals and counting.

 

So he’s been a Point per game player as the 1C on a team that wins 50+ games over 3 seasons.

And as much as we harp on his lack of ES production or whatever, he’s +68 in that span.

And doing it while he’s playing 20 minutes per night against other team’s top players.

 

Wanna talk about special teams… ok. Let’s talk.

 

Over the last 3 seasons, the Rangers have basically had a top-5 PP and a top-5 to top-10 PK.

Over that time, Mika has acted as their primary C on their top PK unit, and the primary shooter/trigger man on their top PP unit.

He’s logged huge ice time on those special teams units, and that ice time comes vs the other teams best players when they’re killing a penalty and vs the other teams top defenders when they’re on the PP. 

 

Obviously other guys contribute to those units and their success. But he’s right there, in the mix, in a MAJOR ROLE on units that have been extremely successful. 
 

His two-way, all situation, production and effectiveness has been excellent and a primary factor in the success they’ve had. 
 

 

 

We can’t act like his contribution on special teams doesn’t count. Or make a huge impact.

Cause it does.

 

Being a great player and finisher on the PP is a hugely important and skill.

He has it.

Being a great penalty killer is a wonderfully important and useful skill.
He has it.

Playing +68 hockey in 20 minutes a night over 3 seasons, despite not having overwhelming numbers at ES while playing vs top players is tremendous.

 

 

 

He’s a fantastic player and the best C we’ve had since Eric Lindros or Mess. 
 

Look at everything.

Or you’ll miss the picture.

 

Stop looking for McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Crosby, etc.

 

Hes not that.

Only those guys are that. 
 

He’s outstanding 

And he does it all while carrying a LW who's 6'3", 230, so I can see why he's a little gassed.

Edited April 9 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

And he does it all while carrying a LW who's 6'3", 230, so I can see why he's a little gassed.

Well…. That’s also a part of the conversation that perhaps you are maybe missing/ignoring/devaluing etc.

Perhaps for different reasons. 

 

 

So let’s talk about Chris Glider,  shall we?

 

Over the exact same circumstances …

3 seasons and number of games

Paired with Mika, same EVERYTHING.

 

Kreider has 238 games, 126 goals, 201 points, and is plus 58.

 

Hes been the leagues best net front guy in that span. On a top PP.

While also being a primary PK guy.

 

Has a 50 goal season.

Has a 35 goal season 

Approaching a 40 goal season.

And he’s contributed in the playoffs too.

 

Hes not dragging Kreider.

Theyve worked well together.

 

Kreider is a massive reason why they’ve been successful.

 

 

 

[Pete]

26 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Well…. That’s also a part of the conversation that perhaps you are maybe missing/ignoring/devaluing etc.

Perhaps for different reasons. 

 

 

So let’s talk about Chris Glider,  shall we?

 

Over the exact same circumstances …

3 seasons and number of games

Paired with Mika, same EVERYTHING.

 

Kreider has 238 games, 126 goals, 201 points, and is plus 58.

 

Hes been the leagues best net front guy in that span. On a top PP.

While also being a primary PK guy.

 

Has a 50 goal season.

Has a 35 goal season 

Approaching a 40 goal season.

And he’s contributed in the playoffs too.

 

Hes not dragging Kreider.

Theyve worked well together.

 

Kreider is a massive reason why they’ve been successful.

 

 

 

Kreider level of effort and play with and without the puck leave much to be desired, Zib has to do a ton of heavy lifting on that line. Much more than say Trocheck needs to do with Panarin, or even Wennberg with Kakko. 

[Phil]

28 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Well…. That’s also a part of the conversation that perhaps you are maybe missing/ignoring/devaluing etc.

Perhaps for different reasons. 

 

 

So let’s talk about Chris Glider,  shall we?

 

Over the exact same circumstances …

3 seasons and number of games

Paired with Mika, same EVERYTHING.

 

Kreider has 238 games, 126 goals, 201 points, and is plus 58.

 

Hes been the leagues best net front guy in that span. On a top PP.

While also being a primary PK guy.

 

Has a 50 goal season.

Has a 35 goal season 

Approaching a 40 goal season.

And he’s contributed in the playoffs too.

 

Hes not dragging Kreider.

Theyve worked well together.

 

Kreider is a massive reason why they’ve been successful.

 

As probably the biggest Kreider stan on the forum, even I can admit that this doesn't paint the picture you think it does. Most of his goal-scoring comes from the power play, not at even strength. Outside of this, Kreider offers very little to his line because he doesn't play with the puck very often. Now, I don't think he should be the primary puck-carrier on any line he plays with, but I also think it's indisputable that Zibanejad does the heavy lifting on that line.

 

That said, my position has been clear on this forever: I don't care. I don't care that he leaves much to be desired. I don't care that he glides. I don't care that he doesn't back check hard enough or that he peels off. Because he scores goals. Tons of them. And in key moments (see DET game and his general playoffs record). So long as he keeps doing that, I'm willing to overlook all the other deficiencies, because even though it's ugly, it works. Exceedingly well.

[RangersIn7]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

Kreider level of effort and play with and without the puck leave much to be desired, Zib has to do a ton of heavy lifting on that line. Much more than say Trocheck needs to do with Panarin, or even Wennberg with Kakko. 

In practical terms though… does he?

 

Kreider has more total goals , more ES goals, more PP goals, playing with him.

 

Kreider has more goals, more ES goals, and more PP goals in the playoffs than Mika

 

I think you were right BTW…

 

Find a volume shooter to play with them or split them up. 
That’s the ultimate path to success. 
 

 

But don’t ignore or downplay what they’ve accomplished together.

 

 

 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

As probably the biggest Kreider stan on the forum, even I can admit that this doesn't paint the picture you think it does. Most of his goal-scoring comes from the power play, not at even strength. Outside of this, Kreider offers very little to his line because he doesn't play with the puck very often. Now, I don't think he should be the primary puck-carrier on any line he plays with, but I also think it's indisputable that Zibanejad does the heavy lifting on that line.

 

That said, my position has been clear on this forever: I don't care. I don't care that he leaves much to be desired. I don't care that he glides. I don't care that he doesn't back check hard enough or that he peels off. Because he scores goals. Tons of them. And in key moments (see DET game and his general playoffs record). So long as he keeps doing that, I'm willing to overlook all the other deficiencies, because even though it's ugly, it works. Exceedingly well.

And all of that is fine as long as there's an understanding that it will always be somebody else who makes the play to get him the puck, unlike some other players on the team who create, either for themselves or others... So before we come down on Mika, it needs to be understood that without him, there's likely much much much much less Kreider.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, RangersIn7 said:

In practical terms though… does he?

 

Kreider has more total goals , more ES goals, more PP goals, playing with him.

 

Kreider has more goals, more ES goals, and more PP goals in the playoffs than Mika

 

I think you were right BTW…

 

Find a volume shooter to play with them or split them up. 
That’s the ultimate path to success. 
 

 

But don’t ignore or downplay what they’ve accomplished together.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is ignoring or downplaying anything, it's just an understanding of who drives that line and who benefits from it. It's not exactly a symbiotic relationship, it's more of a parasitic one this season.

[RangersIn7]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't think anyone is ignoring or downplaying anything, it's just an understanding of who drives that line and who benefits from it. It's not exactly a symbiotic relationship, it's more of a parasitic one this season.

We weren’t debating who “drives the line”, though, were we?

 

They actually drive it together.

But sure… Mika has more of that responsibility.

 

But it’s hardly parasitic.

 

It’s off base to call a guy with a 50 goal season, a 36 goal season, and a season of 38 and counting, plus playoff goals, over 3 years to boot,  a parasite.

 

 

Edited April 9 by RangersIn7

[Pete]

1 minute ago, RangersIn7 said:

We weren’t debating who “drives the line”, though, were we?

 

They actually drive it together.

But sure… Mika has more if that responsibility.

 

But it’s hardly parasitic.

 

It’s off base to call a guy with a 50 goal season, a 36 goal seat, and a season of 38 and counting, plus playoff goals, over 3 years to boot,  a parasite.

 

 

I disagree. His skill set is built around waiting for other players to get a shot off so that he can deflect it. There's nothing else there beyond that. 

 

And let's not compare this season to years prior where he was using his speed to stretch the defense and taking more long-range shots. That's not him this year. 

[The Dude]

6 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

Selke voters would disagree with you.

Is Zibanejad in the discussion for the Selke? If not. Why? 

[Long live the King]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Is Zibanejad in the discussion for the Selke? If not. Why? 

 

Did you read the post I quoted?

 

"often a team's 3rd center is the best defensive center playing on a checking line that tries to matchup against the other team's #1 line."

 

If this is true, why the Selke finalists routinely 1st line centers. 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

And all of that is fine as long as there's an understanding that it will always be somebody else who makes the play to get him the puck, unlike some other players on the team who create, either for themselves or others... So before we come down on Mika, it needs to be understood that without him, there's likely much much much much less Kreider.

 

Well, maybe. In a world where Zib isn't on this team but Panarin still is, I think you can still mostly replicate the same results (on the PP). But at 5v5, you're getting even less, 100%.