It's Time to Talk About Mika Zibanejad

[BrooksBurner]

Since 2021, top 5 Rangers forwards in +/-:

 

Zibanejad +68

Kreider +57

Panarin +41

Kakko +29

Trocheck +17

 

In that span, Zibanejad is 10th amongst forwards in the NHL in +/-, and Kreider is 14th. You can't attribute the results to "goaltending and teammates" when the disparity in goal differential is this large. This year, Kreider is +17 (1st on team amongst forwards, 27th in NHL) and Zibanejad is +13 (4th, 51st). Still 1st line goal diff for both, but a step back because Zibanejad isn't keeping up with the offensive output he's had the last few seasons, and that's unequivocally not a Kreider issue. Kreider is tied for the most ES points in his career this year. Any attempt to shade Kreider for Zibanejad's lack of offense is not based in reality or stats.

 

"It's a 5v4 when Kreider is on the ice" is the funniest thing I've read in a Kreider-hate post in a while.

 

The fact of the matter is, Kreider and Zibanejad help each other immensely in all 3 zones. Peanut butter and jelly baby. Just a little light on peanut butter (Zibanejad) this year.

Edited April 10 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

So then he does more than just standing in front of the goal, actually a lot more.

I don't think we're going to agree on "a lot more" because however much you think he's doing, what you continue to write below shows that it could be doing more. 

 

Quote

I can agree on that. Kreider pre-2021 was very frustrating because you could see the potential, mainly in his speed and size, but it felt like he refused to do it on a consistent basis. Now he might not have turned into exactly the player we envisioned and hoped for, but he's turned in to one of the more consistent scorers in the entire league and our leading goal scorer over the past 3 years. I think he deserves a lot of credit for finding his place and actually turning into a consistent and clutch player.

The thing is, you called him clutch but he's only in a position because of other players delivering the puck to the net. 

 

I'd actually call Lafreniere more of a clutch player this season because he not only creates for himself but he creates for others. 

 

Like I can't honestly sit here and watch how other players behave on the cycle, and then look at Kreids only skate 10 feet from the front of the net to the back wall and say "All good here!" 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

The thing is, you called him clutch but he's only in a position because of other players delivering the puck to the net. 

Well yes, they're playing a team sport. I don't get this argument? Do you say the same about Ovi and his one-timers on the PP?

 

He scored the GWG three games ago, last game he got us going and gave the team life. First with a great tip and then screening the goalie for the 2nd. No one else on the team does that, not even close to it.

 

Players play different roles on a team. I'm not gonna get mad at Panarin for not going to the net and screening goalies and I'm not gonna get mad at Kreider for not skating all round the O-zone trying to do things he can't do with the puck. He's reliable defensively and he scores loads of goals. At the end of the day that's all that matters.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Well yes, they're playing a team sport. I don't get this argument? Do you say the same about Ovi and his one-timers on the PP?

 

He scored the GWG three games ago, last game he got us going and gave the team life. First with a great tip and then screening the goalie for the 2nd. No one else on the team does that, not even close to it.

 

Players play different roles on a team. I'm not gonna get mad at Panarin for not going to the net and screening goalies and I'm not gonna get mad at Kreider for not skating all round the O-zone trying to do things he can't do with the puck. He's reliable defensively and he scores loads of goals. At the end of the day that's all that matters.

That's all that matters to you, but when other people see a skill set not being utilized, and other players having to pick up the slack for it, it's going to be pointed out. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

That's all that matters to you, but when other people see a skill set not being utilized, and other players having to pick up the slack for it, it's going to be pointed out. 

It's all that matters to the game really. Score more goals than the opposition. Kreider is great at it.

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

It's all that matters to the game really. Score more goals than the opposition. Kreider is great at it.

That's a POV you're welcome to enjoy but it's not one that I share. It's a little too reductive, or as you would say disingenuous, a little bit more goes into it. 

 

But we don't have to agree. 

Edited April 10 by Pete

[Keirik]

If you go back to the 18/19 season (Kreids took off goal wise in the 21/22 season), Chris Kreider has more goals than all but 11 other people in the entire league. If you start from the 21/22 season til now, the number dwindles to 6. SIX. If we are talking PP goals, it is 2. Only Draistaitl and Sam Reinhert have more pp goals. If we are talking GWG, he's tied for 10th with Crosby and Jason Robertson.

 

If you go to playoffs, Kreider from 21/22 to present , Kreider is tied with MacKinnon for 3rd most playoff goals, is 3rd with the most GWG, and 2nd in PP goals. 

 

Is he one dimensional ? Yup. But when you are that elite in that one dimension, you take the good with the bad sometimes. We are not where we are without the presence of Kreider. 

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, Keirik said:

If you go back to the 18/19 season (Kreids took off goal wise in the 21/22 season), Chris Kreider has more goals than all but 11 other people in the entire league. If you start from the 21/22 season til now, the number dwindles to 6. SIX. If we are talking PP goals, it is 2. Only Draistaitl and Sam Reinhert have more pp goals. If we are talking GWG, he's tied for 10th with Crosby and Jason Robertson.

 

If you go to playoffs, Kreider from 21/22 to present , Kreider is tied with MacKinnon for 3rd most playoff goals, is 3rd with the most GWG, and 2nd in PP goals. 

 

Is he one dimensional ? Yup. But when you are that elite in that one dimension, you take the good with the bad sometimes. We are not where we are without the presence of Kreider. 

This is all great info but it's not anything anyone's denying. 

 

Yes you take the good with the bad, but there are going to be conversations where the bad is discussed.

 

This is one of those times.

[RangerDanger]

Can we split them up next season?

Can Kreider slide down to 3rd line, still get all the PP & PK time, and maybe move Cuylle (a guy who loves to hit & shoot) up to Zib's line to alleviate some of his pressure? Worth a shot.

[Keirik]

6 minutes ago, RangerDanger said:

Can we split them up next season?

Can Kreider slide down to 3rd line, still get all the PP & PK time, and maybe move Cuylle (a guy who loves to hit & shoot) up to Zib's line to alleviate some of his pressure? Worth a shot.

Sure. Anything technically can be done, but when the team is winning, the questions beg as to why? 

[RangersIn7]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is all great info but it's not anything anyone's denying. 

 

Yes you take the good with the bad, but there are going to be conversations where the bad is discussed.

 

This is one of those times.

It’s fair to criticize CK.

 

You see a guy that size, who skates as well as he does, and it isn’t a long walk to want to see him do some things that he just doesn’t do often enough, i.e. engage more physically, win puck battles on the boards and down low, and use that speed and size to get in on the forecheck.

 

Just him using his speed, size and strength more in general would be nice. 
 

So when the criticism comes, I understand it and it’s not undue.

 

Then there’s the good.

He scores.

He’s great on the PP.

He’s great in front of the net.

And he scores in the playoffs and has a decent knack for scoring some big goals in big spots. 
Plus he’s a decent player defensively and he is a good player on the PK.

 
I don’t think Mika outright has to carry him.

Though I will certainly say there’s things he could do to lighten the load that he doesn’t do much of or often enough. 
 

End of the day we’re still talking about a very productive player though.

[Pete]

45 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

End of the day we’re still talking about a very productive player though.

Right. But again, no one argued this. He puts up points. But there are other facets of the game where he's just not a contributor, and it's not because he can't, it's because he won't. You've outlined them yourself.

[Pete]

Let's go back to 18/19...

 

Hits/60 down almost half.

Blocks/60 down over half.

He's cut GVA in half, but also TKA in half.

 

These are not the markers of a player who's as involved as he once was. All you need to do is watch a few Edmonton games and watch how Evander Kane forecheck. He's disruptive and causes havoc. Kreider enters the zone and cruises to the front of the net, patiently waiting for the puck to arrive. It's a stark difference.

 

This isn't a comparison of the two players, it's a comparison of a player who's hounding the puck vs one who is passive.

[RangersIn7]

19 minutes ago, Pete said:

Right. But again, no one argued this. He puts up points. But there are other facets of the game where he's just not a contributor, and it's not because he can't, it's because he won't. You've outlined them yourself.

I have felt that way about CK for a while now. There’s no getting around that over the past 3 seasons, he’s put up better numbers by a wide margin but he does way less of the “power forward” things you’d expect.

He used to do them. Not so much anymore.

And he never overwhelmed with them when he did them anyway cause he’s never been a true power forward. He plays too passively too often. 
Perhaps it’s kept him healthier.

Perhaps it’s contributed to the jump in productivity.

 

IDK… but the observations about him are fair and accurate in regards to how he plays.

 

Hopefully in the playoffs when the game gets more physical and the ice gets smaller he does those things.

 

We will have to see.
 

[Keirik]

Krieder also tied for 8th most short handed goals in the league since the 19/20 season with his good friend Mika (and Lowry/Marchand) 

[Pete]

I don't know why people keep bringing up the goals. Nobody's disputing that he can score goals. It's what happens between them that's being discussed, and there's not much there. 

[RangersIn7]

 

52 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't know why people keep bringing up the goals. Nobody's disputing that he can score goals. It's what happens between them that's being discussed, and there's not much there. 

I think there’s a lot of people that feel that the virtue of him being such a prolific scorer over the last 3 seasons that it outweighs the rest. 
 

 

The good certainly outweighs the bad. 

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

I think there’s a lot of people that feel that the virtue of him being such a prolific scorer over the last 3 seasons that it outweighs the rest. 
 

 

The good certainly outweighs the bad. 

I don't disagree with any of this. And I've never said otherwise. We all know he can score goals, we don't need to litigate that. Anybody can look at the boxcars. 

 

As I said earlier, this conversation is not about what he is doing, it's about what he isn't doing that makes his centerman's job harder. 

 

It goes beyond "analytics and stats good, nothing to see here!" It's why we watch games and not just spreadsheets. 

 

We had this same debate about Jagr, of course this guy is putting up massive amounts of points. But he was supremely ignorant of defense and incredibly lazy on details like line changes.

 

Like the guy would go for a line change and watch a breakaway going the other way and just keep going off for the line change. I can't tell you how many times CK doesn't get the puck deep at the other teams blue line, goes off for a change, and the puck is going back the other way before the line changes completed. It's details like that where he's lacking. 

 

 

 

Edited April 10 by Pete

[delneggs]

This debate about Kreider is just silly.  Does he have drawbacks as a player?  Yes he does.  But is he worth a $6.5m/year cap hit?  Every day of the week and twice on Sundays.  He has become a legit 40+/- goal scorer and 70+/- point winger and he is the best net front guy in the NHL and the last 3 seasons has become an excellent and dangerous penalty killer.  Both his Corsi and Fenwick %'s are 58% +/- and his +/- #'s are always good in the +20 range the last 3 years. He is big, fast and can play physical when he wants to.  I wish he played a more physical game and was more engaged at times, but all in all, the Rangers are damn lucky to have him at $6.5m/year in my opinion and nitpicking his deficiencies as a player is just blowing hot air.   

[Br4d]

Mika, Kreider, Panarin, Trocheck, Lafreniere and Fox.

 

If those guys are on in the playoffs, and I mean all of them, then we have a good shot at a cup.

 

If a few of them go missing, like last year, we have no shot at all.

[Pete]

34 minutes ago, delneggs said:

He is big, fast and can play physical when he wants to.  I wish he played a more physical game and was more engaged at times

I agree. 

 

This is the entire crux of the discussion. Is it okay if I refer to the rest of your post as hot air? 

Edited April 10 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I don't disagree with any of this. And I've never said otherwise. We all know he can score goals, we don't need to litigate that. Anybody can look at the boxcars. 

 

As I said earlier, this conversation is not about what he is doing, it's about what he isn't doing that makes his centerman's job harder. 

 

It goes beyond "analytics and stats good, nothing to see here!" It's why we watch games and not just spreadsheets. 

 

We had this same debate about Jagr, of course this guy is putting up massive amounts of points. But he was supremely ignorant of defense and incredibly lazy on details like line changes.

 

Like the guy would go for a line change and watch a breakaway going the other way and just keep going off for the line change. I can't tell you how many times CK doesn't get the puck deep at the other teams blue line, goes off for a change, and the puck is going back the other way before the line changes completed. It's details like that where he's lacking. 

 

 

 

I’m not at all saying it implying that you are.

 

Two things can be true in opposite at the same time.

 

We can also extol his virtues while also pointing out flaws or shortcomings in his game, or at least say what we’d like to see more of. 
 

No player is perfect. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

I’m not at all saying it implying that you are.

 

Two things can be true in opposite at the same time.

 

We can also extol his virtues while also pointing out flaws or shortcomings in his game, or at least say what we’d like to see more of. 
 

No player is perfect. 

Agreed. Exactly what I've been saying the whole time. 

[RangersIn7]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

Agreed. Exactly what I've been saying the whole time. 

Yes. I know you are. 
 

 

As said, he’ll need to utilize that size, strength, and speed at times more so in the playoffs. He will need to win some puck battles. He will need to use those attributes to be more effective and engaged on the forecheck. 
Ice gets smaller. Games get more physical.
 

It’s also not 1988 anymore though, so he doesn’t need to constantly bang bodies. That’s not the NHL anymore.

Even the most physical players in the game today aren’t a fraction as physical as guys were 30-35 years ago. Even 20-25 years ago. 

[delneggs]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I agree. 

 

This is the entire crux of the discussion. Is it okay if I refer to the rest of your post as hot air? 

Do whatever you want. You enjoy nitpicking the game of a guy well worth his cap hit so guess you will blowing hot air about anything.