It's Time to Talk About Mika Zibanejad

[The Dude]

1 minute ago, Long live the King said:

 

Did you read the post I quoted?

 

"often a team's 3rd center is the best defensive center playing on a checking line that tries to matchup against the other team's #1 line."

 

If this is true, why the Selke finalists routinely 1st line centers. 

That has nothing to do with my question. Maybe I should rephrase it. 

 

Is Zibanejad being considered for the Selke? 

 

I think he should be. As a 1st (2nd) line center. He's  seems to consistently be a guy that doesn't get beaten by other teams top players. Easily the Rangers best defensive forward. 

[Long live the King]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

That has nothing to do with my question. Maybe I should rephrase it. 

 

Is Zibanejad being considered for the Selke? 

 

I think he should be. As a 1st (2nd) line center. He's  seems to consistently be a guy that doesn't get beaten by other teams top players. Easily the Rangers best defensive forward. 

 

Who knows.  He was 15th and 16th in voting the last 2 years, but that's not the point.

 

The premise was presented that Zib is a 3rd line center because he is the best defensively.  Looking at Selke voting, this premise is trash.

[Phil]

59 minutes ago, Pete said:

I disagree. His skill set is built around waiting for other players to get a shot off so that he can deflect it. There's nothing else there beyond that. 

 

And let's not compare this season to years prior where he was using his speed to stretch the defense and taking more long-range shots. That's not him this year. 

 

Sure, but if it works, it works. Andreychuk and Smyth.

[Pete]

Just now, Phil said:

 

Sure, but if it works, it works. Andreychuk and Smyth.

I'm not disputing whether or not it works, I'm disputing how much value can be placed on it. And that's where we disagree, because you think his value as a goal scorer or trumps all his other shortcomings and I don't. The only thing that makes it palatable is his cap hit.

[The Dude]

3 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Who knows.  He was 15th and 16th in voting the last 2 years, but that's not the point.

 

The premise was presented that Zib is a 3rd line center because he is the best defensively.  Looking at Selke voting, this premise is trash.

 

 

I'm not sure if we are arguing or not. I'm certainly not trying to.    My question had very little to do with what you 2 were talking about. Perhaps I'm reading angst in your response that isn't there or directed at me. 

 

I was really just wondering why Zibanejad doesn't get more rep from the league for the Selke. I think he should be in that discussion way more than he is. 

 

Carry on. Sorry I pissed you off by asking a side question. 

[Phil]

22 minutes ago, Pete said:

I'm not disputing whether or not it works, I'm disputing how much value can be placed on it. And that's where we disagree, because you think his value as a goal scorer or trumps all his other shortcomings and I don't. The only thing that makes it palatable is his cap hit.

 

OK, but we can only work with what we know, and what we know is he's basically guaranteed goals + on-the-money contract. So, what's the problem, really? Phil Kessel was awful defensively, too. He's also probably a HOFer.

[Long live the King]

I'm not arguing or pissed off.

 

[Long live the King]

2 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

OK, but we can only work with what we know, and what we know is he's basically guaranteed goals + on-the-money contract. So, what's the problem, really? Phil Kessel was awful defensively, too. He's also probably a HOFer.

 

I'd trade the goals to not have to watch him skate ass first into a guy along the boards and fail to come away with the puck.

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

I'd trade the goals to not have to watch him skate ass first into a guy along the boards and fail to come away with the puck.

 

Yup. Then proceed to bitch for the next however many years why the Rangers have no net front presence and how badly the team misses his ability to score "easy" PP goals.

[Pete]

3 hours ago, Phil said:

 

OK, but we can only work with what we know, and what we know is he's basically guaranteed goals + on-the-money contract. So, what's the problem, really? Phil Kessel was awful defensively, too. He's also probably a HOFer.

Never said he was bad defensively. But you can't just not do anything else and stand in front of the net, I don't care how many go in off you. They're playing 4 on 5 with him out there. 

[Long live the King]

3 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Yup. Then proceed to bitch for the next however many years why the Rangers have no net front presence and how badly the team misses his ability to score "easy" PP goals.

 

Or I'll watch Panarin and Fox pick corners while Rempe's giant ass stands in front of the goalie.

[Pete]

6 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

Or I'll watch Panarin and Fox pick corners while Rempe's giant ass stands in front of the goalie.

Or Lafreniere, or Cullye, or Edstrom. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Saying Kreider does nothing else than score easy goals is so disingenuous. Just because he doesn't use his body like a wrecking ball it doesn't mean he's not doing anything. He's actually a good two-way forward, both the eye-test and underlying stats agree on that, he's got almost as many assists (33) as goals (39) this year. That's not including A LOT of goals that doesn't happen without him screening the goalie, something our entire roster hates/refuses to do.

 

39 goals, 33 assists, +17 for 6.5 million. Insane value.

[Sharpshooter]

3 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Saying Kreider does nothing else than score easy goals is so disingenuous. Just because he doesn't use his body like a wrecking ball it doesn't mean he's not doing anything. He's actually a good two-way forward, both the eye-test and underlying stats agree on that, he's got almost as many assists (33) as goals (39) this year. That's not including A LOT of goals that doesn't happen without him screening the goalie, something our entire roster hates/refuses to do.

 

39 goals, 33 assists, +17 for 6.5 million. Insane value.

He's someone who's actually gotten better with age, as far as production goes. I think a lot of that has to do with playing with better players here than he has in the past. But still, for the numbers, you can't go wrong. If he can keep this kind of production up for the remainder of his contract, or close to it, it's an amazing deal.

[Pete]

You guys are having a straw man argument. Nobody has complained about his contract. Nobody is complaining about his goal scoring. 

 

But the fact of the matter is, he's completely invisible most of the night and then deflects in a power play goal or two and it looks good on the score sheet but he has had very little impact on the totality of the game.

 

Some people are okay with that. And that's a fine POV to have. But you can't ignore the reality that the team is basically playing four on five when he's out there.

 

He handles the puck like a hand grenade.

He doesn't use his size or speed to create space for himself or others, even simply by backing in the defense.

He doesn't hit anything. Forget using your body like a wrecking ball, just throwing a body check would be fine. All he does is flyby. 

 

Ever since he came into this league he's always been a player who left you wanting more. And even with all the goals, you still look at the guy and wonder how he can have so little impact for 18 minutes when he scoring goals pretty easily the other two minutes of ice time he's getting. 

 

And you can sit there and talk about Dino Cicarelli, Tomas Holmstrom, Ryan Smyth, Dave Andreychuk, and even Hyman... The difference is that those guys were and are very shitty skaters. Kreider isn't.

 

For somebody to have an elite tool in their bag and choose not to use it is at the least very disappointing and at the most fucking criminal. 

Edited April 10 by Pete

[Phil]

33 minutes ago, Pete said:

You guys are having a straw man argument. Nobody has complained about his contract. Nobody is complaining about his goal scoring. 

 

But the fact of the matter is, he's completely invisible most of the night and then deflects in a power play goal or two and it looks good on the score sheet but he has had very little impact on the totality of the game.

 

Some people are okay with that. And that's a fine POV to have. But you can't ignore the reality that the team is basically playing four on five when he's out there.

 

He handles the puck like a hand grenade.

He doesn't use his size or speed to create space for himself or others, even simply by backing in the defense.

He doesn't hit anything. Forget using your body like a wrecking ball, just throwing a body check would be fine. All he does is flyby. 

 

Ever since he came into this league he's always been a player who left you wanting more. And even with all the goals, you still look at the guy and wonder how he can have so little impact for 18 minutes when he scoring goals pretty easily the other two minutes of ice time he's getting. 

 

And you can sit there and talk about Dino Cicarelli, Tomas Holmstrom, Ryan Smyth, Dave Andreychuk, and even Hyman... The difference is that those guys were and are very shitty skaters. Kreider isn't.

 

For somebody to have an elite tool in their bag and choose not to use it is at the least very disappointing and at the most fucking criminal. 

 

This is a well thought out, well-written critique that does a great job of illustrating your issue with this player. And my response is this:

 

I still don't care, cause he's about to score 40. Again. They have bigger fish to fry than the 30–50-goal scorer being paid perfectly who leaves you wanting more shift-to-shift.

[Ozzy]

10 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

This is a well thought out, well-written critique that does a great job of illustrating your issue with this player. And my response is this:

 

I still don't care, cause he's about to score 40. Again. They have bigger fish to fry than the 30–50-goal scorer being paid perfectly who leaves you wanting more shift-to-shift.

 

 

This is what I've come to accept with him.  I know all the good's, bad's and ugly's at this point with Kreider, and I accept that's who he is. 

 

...but it is still funny when we pick on him!   LOL

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

This is a well thought out, well-written critique that does a great job of illustrating your issue with this player. And my response is this:

 

I still don't care, cause he's about to score 40. Again. They have bigger fish to fry than the 30–50-goal scorer being paid perfectly who leaves you wanting more shift-to-shift.

I never asked you to care. However you not caring about an issue doesn't mean there is no issue.

 

This is simply a case where both things are true at once. He scores a bunch. And almost nothing else.

[Phil]

OK, but that issue is more rooted in personal preference than it is in performance, because he scores a boat load of goals and is paid commiserate with what he produces.

 

If he didn't score, this would matter a helluva lot more.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

OK, but that issue is more rooted in personal preference than it is in performance, because he scores a boat load of goals and is paid commiserate with what he produces.

 

If he didn't score, this would matter a helluva lot more.

We're having two different conversations. You want to talk about advocacy and I want to talk about it analysis. 

 

We're pretty much in agreement on who this player is. I'm not advocating to trade him, I'm not advocating for him to have less ice time, be benched, be scratched, etc. I'm simply making a statement about what's happening on the ice as it relates to his center who is forced to do more and more work as the left wing does less and less.

 

So why are we debating? If we both agree who he is and you don't care, then why you still answering lol? Bored at work?  

Edited April 10 by Pete

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

54 minutes ago, Pete said:

You guys are having a straw man argument. Nobody has complained about his contract. Nobody is complaining about his goal scoring. 

 

But the fact of the matter is, he's completely invisible most of the night and then deflects in a power play goal or two and it looks good on the score sheet but he has had very little impact on the totality of the game.

 

Some people are okay with that. And that's a fine POV to have. But you can't ignore the reality that the team is basically playing four on five when he's out there.

 

He handles the puck like a hand grenade.

He doesn't use his size or speed to create space for himself or others, even simply by backing in the defense.

He doesn't hit anything. Forget using your body like a wrecking ball, just throwing a body check would be fine. All he does is flyby. 

 

Ever since he came into this league he's always been a player who left you wanting more. And even with all the goals, you still look at the guy and wonder how he can have so little impact for 18 minutes when he scoring goals pretty easily the other two minutes of ice time he's getting. 

 

And you can sit there and talk about Dino Cicarelli, Tomas Holmstrom, Ryan Smyth, Dave Andreychuk, and even Hyman... The difference is that those guys were and are very shitty skaters. Kreider isn't.

 

For somebody to have an elite tool in their bag and choose not to use it is at the least very disappointing and at the most fucking criminal. 

 

This all boils down to you expecting wayyy too much of a 6.5m LW. You're over exaggerating hos "invisible" he is and he's not even close to being a liability in any way. If he did all what you wanted him to do + score 40-50 goals he would be close to the best player in the league and would demand double of what he makes now.

 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

 

This all boils down to you expecting wayyy too much of a 6.5m LW. You're over exaggerating hos "invisible" he is and he's not even close to being a liability in any way. If he did all what you wanted him to do + score 40-50 goals he would be close to the best player in the league and would demand double of what he makes now.

 

I don't expect too much. I expect a full level of effort. 

 

I never called them a liability. He simply doesn't participate in the play other than standing in front of a net. That's just not good enough as part of a team. 

 

I agree with you about the last part, and I never complained about his contract so I don't know why it keeps getting brought up. 

 

I don't think asking a player to deliver a hit, use their speed to their advantage, is asking too much. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

I never called them a liability. He simply doesn't participate in the play other than standing in front of a net. That's just not good enough as part of a team. 

A bit contradicting, no? I would say that if a player isn't participating in the play, he is a liability.

 

In a cap league a players salary is very important context when discussing a players productivity. How you perform relative to your salary/cap is all that matters really. You need most of the team to perform at or above their salary if you want to be successful.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

A bit contradicting, no? I would say that if a player isn't participating in the play, he is a liability.

 

 

I don't see it that way. He doesn't hurt you defensively and he only helps you in one dimension offensively. 

 

Quote

In a cap league a players salary is very important context when discussing a players productivity. How you perform relative to your salary/cap is all that matters really. You need most of the team to perform at or above their salary if you want to be successful.

We're not having a conversation about his salary. We're having a conversation about how much more work Mika has to do because he's playing with a winger who doesn't do everything he can do to impact the play. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't see it that way. He doesn't hurt you defensively and he only helps you in one dimension offensively. 

So then he does more than just standing in front of the goal, actually a lot more.

 

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

We're not having a conversation about his salary. We're having a conversation about how much more work Mika has to do because he's playing with a winger who doesn't do everything he can do to impact the play. 

I can agree on that. Kreider pre-2021 was very frustrating because you could see the potential, mainly in his speed and size, but it felt like he refused to do it on a consistent basis. Now he might not have turned into exactly the player we envisioned and hoped for, but he's turned in to one of the more consistent scorers in the entire league and our leading goal scorer over the past 3 years. I think he deserves a lot of credit for finding his place and actually turning into a consistent and clutch player.