Lafrenière Re-Re-Reset: 2023–24 Edition

[Valriera]

31 minutes ago, Jdog99 said:

Not a fan of moving him to the RW...again...(nor the first time)

 

But i can't really argue with anyone who says he should have proven and earned his keep by now...

 

Just think with 1OA like that...the ideal situation is you get put on the top line (in your natural position) on a team with low expectations, and have alot of freedom to play your game.

I agree with you but also, 20G in any position at this point is an expectation of the kid, and IDC if they all go in off his ass.

[BrooksBurner]

Using the 1OA lens at this point is just a detriment to evaluating his worth at this stage in the game. Him not showing his worth as a 1OA quality player is now represented on his contract, so the 1OA lens should be removed from any discussion about him. That goes for both sides of the coin. Team expectations + Lafreniere's expectations with $ or ice time. Being hung up on draft position is rather meaningless 4 years into a career.

[RichieNextel305]

It hasn’t been an ideal spot in many ways for Lafreniere here, but it also has been. I see both sides. Look at Bedard, for example. Not trying to compare the 3 at all, just the situations. Bedard is walking in, playing his position from Day 1, on a bad team with little to no expectations, and will be given PP1 time right off the jump. Meanwhile, Laffy came in to a team that, the year prior, was making a push for the playoffs (made it if you include the Bubble) and had an MVP candidate in front of him on the depth chart plus an established 25-30 goal scorer ahead of him as well. Not to mention a team that was ready to compete, and was more in try-to-win mode as opposed to let’s develop the kids mode. It was a slippery slope. I’m not blaming the Rangers, and I’m not denying Lafreniere has had it differently than most 1OA picks. Bedard is coming in to a hand given spot, but is playing with bums. Lafreniere walked in with guys ahead of him on the depth chart, but also walked in to a locker room full of talented players who could help him grow.
 

By now, people like us who I would say are fairly intelligent hockey fans should be able to look at him and see improvements. I think that’s where our issues are. No one is denying the weirdness of his coming up and the uniqueness of his situation on a contending team. It was odd. But by now, we should be seeing progress. And quite frankly, as someone who has defended him at nearly every turn, I’m starting to become concerned myself because I really haven’t seen much to make me confident.

Edited September 29, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Phil]

10 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Using the 1OA lens at this point is just a detriment to evaluating his worth at this stage in the game. Him not showing his worth as a 1OA quality player is now represented on his contract, so the 1OA lens should be removed from any discussion about him. That goes for both sides of the coin. Team expectations + Lafreniere's expectations with $ or ice time. Being hung up on draft position is rather meaningless 4 years into a career.

 

Here's how I look at it: Both Othmann and Laugh are still kids. But one has 200+ NHL games experience and the other zero. The one with zero is the one impressing the hell out of everyone, and that's disconcerting, because he's also the one who's likely to get cut as a direct result of there being no room on the roster for him, which is a direct result of Laugh being on it.

 

Is it really so wrong for anyone to be upset by this? I get that you can't throw 1OA in his face forever, but you also can't just pretend it's ever going to go away. It absolutely sucks to watch this team whiff this fucking hard on a player who was supposed to be a franchise cornerstone for them. Especially when guys taken much later are looking so much more impressive out there and will probably end up cut in spite of it.

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Here's how I look at it: Both Othmann and Laugh are still kids. But one has 200+ NHL games experience and the other zero. The one with zero is the one impressing the hell out of everyone, and that's disconcerting, because he's also the one who's likely to get cut as a direct result of there being no room on the roster for him, which is a direct result of Laugh being on it.

 

Is it really so wrong for anyone to be upset by this? I get that you can't throw 1OA in his face forever, but you also can't just pretend it's ever going to go away. It absolutely sucks to watch this team whiff this fucking hard on a player who was supposed to be a franchise cornerstone for them. Especially when guys taken much later are looking so much more impressive out there and will probably end up cut in spite of it.

 

Laf has been an NHL regular and is paid like one. NHL regulars don't go balls to the wall in the preseason. New kids, PTOs, bubble players, etc, looking just to make the team do. Effort level is one of the easiest things to see in preseason.

 

Not at all. I'm not happy about it. Nobody is. I'm just trying to remove myself from the pre-existing 1OA expectations, and evaluate his worth for what he is and adjusting his ceiling as we go. If he literally doesn't progress at all, he's a 15-20 goal 35-40 point 3rd liner. It's frustrating, replaceable, useful, and good value for his cap hit all at the same time. I'd rather not give it away or discount him as an NHL player based on the 1OA lens. I feel like that's a mistake. He still belongs in the league and can be useful.

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

It hasn’t been an ideal spot in many ways for Lafreniere here, but it also has been. I see both sides. Look at Bedard, for example. Not trying to compare the 3 at all, just the situations. Bedard is walking in, playing his position from Day 1, on a bad team with little to no expectations, and will be given PP1 time right off the jump. Meanwhile, Laffy came in to a team that, the year prior, was making a push for the playoffs (made it if you include the Bubble) and had an MVP candidate in front of him on the depth chart plus an established 25-30 goal scorer ahead of him as well. Not to mention a team that was ready to compete, and was more in try-to-win mode as opposed to let’s develop the kids mode. It was a slippery slope. I’m not blaming the Rangers, and I’m not denying Lafreniere has had it differently than most 1OA picks. Bedard is coming in to a hand given spot, but is playing with bums. Lafreniere walked in with guys ahead of him on the depth chart, but also walked in to a locker room full of talented players who could help him grow.
 

By now, people like us who I would say are fairly intelligent hockey fans should be able to look at him and see improvements. I think that’s where our issues are. No one is denying the weirdness of his coming up and the uniqueness of his situation on a contending team. It was odd. But by now, we should be seeing progress. And quite frankly, as someone who has defended him at nearly every turn, I’m starting to become concerned myself because I really haven’t seen much to make me confident.

Conversely, Bedard will be facing the top defenses on every team. Lafreneire wasn't. Talent alone should have him picking apart 3rd liners with little pressure that anything is resting solely on his shoulders. Bedard carries the hopes of an entire franchise and so far he has not disappointed.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Laf has been an NHL regular and is paid like one. NHL regulars don't go balls to the wall in the preseason. New kids, PTOs, bubble players, etc, looking just to make the team do. Effort level is one of the easiest things to see in preseason.

 

Not at all. I'm not happy about it. Nobody is. I'm just trying to remove myself from the pre-existing 1OA expectations, and evaluate his worth for what he is and adjusting his ceiling as we go. If he literally doesn't progress at all, he's a 15-20 goal 35-40 point 3rd liner. It's frustrating, replaceable, useful, and good value for his cap hit all at the same time. I'd rather not give it away or discount him as an NHL player based on the 1OA lens. I feel like that's a mistake. He still belongs in the league and can be useful.

 

OK, in a vacuum, sure, but that 1OA lens might have more trade value than you're letting on, specifically to "hometown" markets like Montreal, Ottawa, or Vancouver (his former agent is AGM there).

[RJWantsTheCup]

If he isn’t playing hard in the pre-season because he thinks he’s an NHL regular who is guaranteed a spot on the team while two younger and hungrier players are out performing him at his position this just further makes me not want him on the team.  His pre-season performance so far is eerily similar to his  career regular season performance.  

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

OK, in a vacuum, sure, but that 1OA lens might have more trade value than you're letting on, specifically to "hometown" markets like Montreal, Ottawa, or Vancouver (his former agent is AGM there).

 

I'm with you here. I wouldn't say no if the price were right because a team still felt that way. He's a 3rd line player right now, but I wouldn't trade him for a 3rd line price at his age. How much premium are we talking about trading him now versus trading him later when he's hypothetically shown no more than being a 3rd line player? A late 1st as opposed to a late 2nd? Something like that?

[jsm7302]

10 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Laf has been an NHL regular and is paid like one. NHL regulars don't go balls to the wall in the preseason. New kids, PTOs, bubble players, etc, looking just to make the team do. Effort level is one of the easiest things to see in preseason.

 

Not at all. I'm not happy about it. Nobody is. I'm just trying to remove myself from the pre-existing 1OA expectations, and evaluate his worth for what he is and adjusting his ceiling as we go. If he literally doesn't progress at all, he's a 15-20 goal 35-40 point 3rd liner. It's frustrating, replaceable, useful, and good value for his cap hit all at the same time. I'd rather not give it away or discount him as an NHL player based on the 1OA lens. I feel like that's a mistake. He still belongs in the league and can be useful.

That's good and all but then they are trying to squeeze a round peg into a square hole due to his draft status because I haven't seen anything that would justify putting him on the first line. 

 

PROVE US WRONG KID. PLEASE.

[RichieNextel305]

My question is this: lets say by maybe the 10th game of the year, it’s not working both with the eye test and with productivity. Lets say he’s at 1G, 2A through 10. But the other lines are clicking, however they shake out. 
 

What then? Where is the wake up call then?

[BrooksBurner]

Just now, jsm7302 said:

That's good and all but then they are trying to squeeze a round peg into a square hole due to his draft status because I haven't seen anything that would justify putting him on the first line. 

 

PROVE US WRONG KID. PLEASE.

 

I agree. Management has chosen to try to go for it with the veteran core the team has, whether I agree with that or not (and I don't). Once that decision is made, there should absolutely be no ice time handed out on the basis of draft position.

[RichieNextel305]

Lafreniere and Chytil to Anaheim for Zegras and a 2nd? Give Othmann a shot for a few weeks? If not NHL ready, sign Kane for the year and let Othmann get his feet wet in the AHL?

 

Sorry, working a double and I think the lack of sleep is getting to me.

[RJWantsTheCup]

10 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

My question is this: lets say by maybe the 10th game of the year, it’s not working both with the eye test and with productivity. Lets say he’s at 1G, 2A through 10. But the other lines are clicking, however they shake out. 
 

What then? Where is the wake up call then?

If after 10 games that’s the situation you trade him and Goodrow to Montreal for their 2024 #1 pick, sign Kane and call up Cuylle.  

Edited September 29, 2023 by RJWantsTheCup

[jsm7302]

7 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

9 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Lafreniere and Chytil to Anaheim for Zegras and a 2nd? Give Othmann a shot for a few weeks? If not NHL ready, sign Kane for the year and let Othmann get his feet wet in the AHL?

 

Sorry, working a double and I think the lack of sleep is getting to me.

 

Id send Laf, our first and Zac Jones for Zegras.

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

My question is this: lets say by maybe the 10th game of the year, it’s not working both with the eye test and with productivity. Lets say he’s at 1G, 2A through 10. But the other lines are clicking, however they shake out. 
 

What then? Where is the wake up call then?

 

That depends on a bunch of factors, I think. Is he a detriment to the team defensively? Is he dragging down the line he's on? What's the team's overall production level? Who in the A is outperforming their station?

 

10 games isn't enough for me either. Hockey is too streaky. My mindset on evaluating what to do with Lafreniere is probably more in the January/February timeframe when we start talking about the trade deadline. There's also more clarity from a team standpoint.

 

 

[RichieNextel305]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

That depends on a bunch of factors, I think. Is he a detriment to the team defensively? Is he dragging down the line he's on? What's the team's overall production level? Who in the A is outperforming their station?

 

10 games isn't enough for me either. Hockey is too streaky. My mindset on evaluating what to do with Lafreniere is probably more in the January/February timeframe when we start talking about the trade deadline. There's also more clarity from a team standpoint.

 

 

I phrased the question the way I did for a reason, and the time frame too. Because say we get off to a decent start and the other lines are clicking but Lafreniere isn’t finding a home with Mika and Kreider? Then what?

 

Easy answer is likely to ride it out, and that 10 games isn’t enough, that I give you. But it would definitely be a concern; especially if the other lines are clicking and there is no obvious switch to try and get him going.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I phrased the question the way I did for a reason, and the time frame too. Because say we get off to a decent start and the other lines are clicking but Lafreniere isn’t finding a home with Mika and Kreider? Then what?

 

Easy answer is likely to ride it out, and that 10 games isn’t enough, that I give you. But it wouldn’t definitely be a concern; especially if the other lines are clicking and there is no obvious switch to try and get him going.

 

 

 

Gotcha. I would hope he gets a shot on different lines if one combination isn't working. I think 10 games is a reasonable amount of time to say "this line combination isn't showing enough signs of working to stick with it, so let's try something different". If we are halfway into the season and multiple line combinations with him on it are not working, and it's clear he's a weak link, then the team should move on. I don't know if moving on from Lafreniere would mean trading right away for whatever, or healthy scratching as an extra while the next man (prospect?) up gets their shot. If they decide to move on, it's probably an offseason trade for a draft pick as opposed to a team wanting to trade for him midseason.

[Br4d]

The Rangers should float trade rumors to Arizona and see if that gets some urgency injected in the action.

[Phil]

4 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Lafreniere and Chytil to Anaheim for Zegras and a 2nd? Give Othmann a shot for a few weeks? If not NHL ready, sign Kane for the year and let Othmann get his feet wet in the AHL?

 

Sorry, working a double and I think the lack of sleep is getting to me.

 

You'd be giving up way more than that for Zegras, and you're paying him $7M annually, minimum. It's probably like Laugh, Chytil, 1st, conditional 1st (2nd) for Zegras straight up.

[BrooksBurner]

31 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

You'd be giving up way more than that for Zegras, and you're paying him $7M annually, minimum. It's probably like Laugh, Chytil, 1st, conditional 1st (2nd) for Zegras straight up.

Add Miller or Schneider on top of that and it might be taken a little more seriously 

[Winter]

The problem is you can't go back in time, Laviolette is trying to do with Laf what the Rangers should of done 4 years ago then they wouldn't still be trying to figure out what they got 4 years later. No excuses for Laf but the dumb coaching experiments were helping nobody. 

[The Dude]

7 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Using the 1OA lens at this point is just a detriment to evaluating his worth at this stage in the game. Him not showing his worth as a 1OA quality player is now represented on his contract, so the 1OA lens should be removed from any discussion about him. That goes for both sides of the coin. Team expectations + Lafreniere's expectations with $ or ice time. Being hung up on draft position is rather meaningless 4 years into a career.

OK... Tthen he plays 3rd line again and is dealt like he means very little to the team other than sentimental value of what should have been.  

 

If you don't want to keep the 1OA tag on him, then let it go completely. He's now a movable piece that doesn't really fit on this team. The team needs either a legit scorer for the future or a gritty in your face type that can slot up. He's neither. They have 2 ELC players that fill his roster spot VERY nicely. 

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, The Dude said:

OK... Tthen he plays 3rd line again and is dealt like he means very little to the team other than sentimental value of what should have been.  

 

If you don't want to keep the 1OA tag on him, then let it go completely. He's now a movable piece that doesn't really fit on this team. The team needs either a legit scorer for the future or a gritty in your face type that can slot up. He's neither. They have 2 ELC players that fill his roster spot VERY nicely. 

It's pretty much this, at this point.

 

He was on a non-descript third line that didn't really have a role other than to be a collection of players that didn't make it into the top six last season. Moving forward, competent coaching will have a role for the third line for which he is not a fit.

 

His biggest benefit to the team would be trading him for futures and clearing cap room.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Pete

[Albatrosss]

You currently got a third liner who’s getting paid like a third liner and has an upside to score or more. Why would you trade that?  I wish we had more of these.
Unless the kids have an opportunity to take the next step offensively for the low price tag they have now, this team has no chance to go all the way. 
 

panarin and zibby wont get you the cup but panarin, zibby and kid’s dominating might. Gotta give them the chance