Lafrenière Re-Re-Reset: 2023–24 Edition

[BrooksBurner]

9 minutes ago, The Dude said:

OK... Tthen he plays 3rd line again and is dealt like he means very little to the team other than sentimental value of what should have been.  

 

If you don't want to keep the 1OA tag on him, then let it go completely. He's now a movable piece that doesn't really fit on this team. The team needs either a legit scorer for the future or a gritty in your face type that can slot up. He's neither. They have 2 ELC players that fill his roster spot VERY nicely. 

 

It’s what @CCCP said. He’s young enough to be considered s prospect. Worst case is he’s paid 3rd liner money to be a 3rd liner. Best case is he develops into a lot more than that. If he was holding out or getting paid above his station because of draft pedigree, then it’s a different convo. 

[Pete]

21 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

It’s what @CCCP said. He’s young enough to be considered s prospect. Worst case is he’s paid 3rd liner money to be a 3rd liner. Best case is he develops into a lot more than that. If he was holding out or getting paid above his station because of draft pedigree, then it’s a different convo. 

He's in his 4th year, in no way is he a prospect. He's a third liner being paid as a 3rd liner but not in the mold of a third liner as Laviolette (and many other coaches) sees it, deployed for a specific reason. If Chytil centers Panarin that 3rd line is not most definitely a defensively oriented line and Lafreniere does fit there.

 

Meanwhile, why drag this out? Send him off. He doesn't have the right temperament anway. He doesn't want to work.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

He's in his 4th year, in no way is he a prospect. He's a third liner being paid as a 3rd liner but not in the mold of a third liner as Laviolette (and many other coaches) sees it, deployed for a specific reason. If Chytil centers Panarin that 3rd line is not most definitely a defensively oriented line and Lafreniere does fit there.

 

Meanwhile, why drag this out? Send him off. He doesn't have the right temperament anway. He doesn't want to work.

 

Fine. Don’t call him a prospect, but he’s just turning 22. He’s in that boat where he’s plenty young enough to not have touched his ceiling yet.

 

Othmann is only a year younger.

[Br4d]

You think the Ottawa fans were having conversations like this about Zibanejad going into his 4th season?

 

The Senators waited one more year and then traded Zib at what they likely thought was his peak value.  Would they have gotten the Zibanejad we have today if they'd kept him?

[lefty9]

9 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Laf has been an NHL regular and is paid like one. NHL regulars don't go balls to the wall in the preseason. New kids, PTOs, bubble players, etc, looking just to make the team do. Effort level is one of the easiest things to see in preseason.

 

Not at all. I'm not happy about it. Nobody is. I'm just trying to remove myself from the pre-existing 1OA expectations, and evaluate his worth for what he is and adjusting his ceiling as we go. If he literally doesn't progress at all, he's a 15-20 goal 35-40 point 3rd liner. It's frustrating, replaceable, useful, and good value for his cap hit all at the same time. I'd rather not give it away or discount him as an NHL player based on the 1OA lens. I feel like that's a mistake. He still belongs in the league and can be useful.

He has  been a dispointment , and so has Kakko 

Just our luck

[BrooksBurner]

7 minutes ago, Br4d said:

You think the Ottawa fans were having conversations like this about Zibanejad going into his 4th season?

 

The Senators waited one more year and then traded Zib at what they likely thought was his peak value.  Would they have gotten the Zibanejad we have today if they'd kept him?

 

I'd say yes to both questions.

 

There's no patience with Lafreniere because he was a 1OA pick and he's not a 1OA level player. It's understandable, but the "get rid of at all costs" approach is too much of a knee jerk reaction. The Rangers should not let the initial disappointment cloud their judgment and devalue what he can still be, or they could easily miss out on a pretty good player.

 

To some degree, a similar feeling of disappointment has followed Kreider around his whole career. People had lofty expectations of him being an elite power forward year in and year out. There's a history of people shitting on him for not reaching those expectations. He didn't score 50 points until he was 25 years old, but he was/is still a very good player who they would have been wrong to trade.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, lefty9 said:

He has  been a dispointment , and so has Kakko 

Just our luck

 

Such is life as a Rangers fan.

[lefty9]

I've waited a thousand years for the rangers to draft number one and number two

[Albatrosss]

36 minutes ago, Pete said:

He's in his 4th year, in no way is he a prospect. He's a third liner being paid as a 3rd liner but not in the mold of a third liner as Laviolette (and many other coaches) sees it, deployed for a specific reason. If Chytil centers Panarin that 3rd line is not most definitely a defensively oriented line and Lafreniere does fit there.

 

Meanwhile, why drag this out? Send him off. He doesn't have the right temperament anway. He doesn't want to work.

How do you know what Laviolette sees and how he sees it?  If anything, Laviolette doesnt see Panarin as his type of player. If he made Kuznetsov play north/south, dump it in and chase game, he’s not going to like Panarin’s game.  Laffy is not the problem with this team, he’s just today’s scapegoat. 

[Albatrosss]

2 minutes ago, lefty9 said:

I've waited a thousand years for the rangers to draft number one and number two

We, as Rangers fans should be used to disappointments. 

[lefty9]

3 minutes ago, CCCP said:

We, as Rangers fans should be used to disappointments. Just lime  

just like the jets fans ?

[Albatrosss]

Just now, lefty9 said:

just like the jets fans ?

Im not a football fan, so I wouldn’t know. 

[lefty9]

1 minute ago, CCCP said:

Im not a football fan, so I wouldn’t know. 

Lucky you

[Albatrosss]

Just now, lefty9 said:

Lucky you

Im not lucky, i’m a ranger fan. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

If Donut Hole can't make it on RW the 2 problems with keeping him are that he's blocking 2 players who might help the team better and if he doesn't improve his value keeps going down.   All Rangers fans hope he becomes at least a good player, but the lack of improvement and the lack of effort is hard to over look.

[Pete]

12 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Fine. Don’t call him a prospect, but he’s just turning 22. He’s in that boat where he’s plenty young enough to not have touched his ceiling yet.

 

Othmann is only a year younger.

And not going into his fourth year in the NHL so what does it matter?

 

You can't even compare the temperament of these players either. 

[Pete]

12 hours ago, Br4d said:

You think the Ottawa fans were having conversations like this about Zibanejad going into his 4th season?

 

The Senators waited one more year and then traded Zib at what they likely thought was his peak value.  Would they have gotten the Zibanejad we have today if they'd kept him?

It's an irrelevant comparison.

 

Quote

Money Always Talks

While Zibanejad and Brassard were having career seasons, Ottawa had their reasons for moving on from the young Swedish centreman. The Senators and Rangers were both having salary cap issues. The Senators didn’t have the cash to acquire or re-sign their star players, but they did have the flexibility to take on big cap hits that represented little cash. The Rangers had several high-profile restricted free agents (RFA) like Chris Kreider, who they needed to sign while shedding salary in the process.

https://thehockeywriters.com/ottawa-senators-revisiting-mika-zibanejad-trade/

 

Ottawa needed to move Zib for cap reasons. Lafreniere would be moving on because frankly he has a shit attitude and there are other players coming who are better suited for his roster spot (3LW). Cullye, Othmann, and even Sykora (down the line), all are stylistically and temperamentally better choices for that role. 

 

You frequently make this comparison, yet I wonder how much of Zib you watched in Ottawa? Because he always had the tools. He always showed the flashes.

 

Laugh shows nothing. What in his game makes you think that he is a 40 goal/90 point player?

 

Don't talk to me about his junior highlights, tell me what you see in his game that makes you think he's capable of breaking out? 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Pete

[Ducky]

Sad but true 

[BrooksBurner]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

And not going into his fourth year in the NHL so what does it matter?

 

You can't even compare the temperament of these players either. 

I’m not comparing their temperaments.

 

Overall age dictates physical and mental maturity. Not years of experience in the NHL.

Edited September 30, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I’m not comparing their temperaments.

 

Overall age dictates physical and mental maturity. Not years of experience in the NHL.

Well maybe you should be comparing their temperaments, because part of it is work ethic. They both have it, Laferniere doesn't. 

 

Overall age does not dictate mental maturity, there are some people who are more mature at 19 or 20 then some 23 or 24-year-olds. Clearly there are players taking camp more seriously than Lafreniere. 

 

Cullye and Othmann are both showing a level of dedication to getting better that Lafreniere is not. That's temperament. That's maturity. They are already taking their careers more seriously than he is. They both look better this year than they did last year. Laugh has looked the same since he got here. Does not look one but different between rookie camp and this camp. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

That's a ridiculous characterization of Lafreniere.  He definitely looks better than he did his first year.  He doesn't look like a star prospect but he's been more productive minute-for-minute each season he's been a Ranger.

 

Assuming he gets the same minutes he got last season the expectation is that he'll be a mid-40's player, likely with 20+ goals. 

 

That's what you expect out of a player who goes 12-9-21 at 19 and then 19-12-31 at 20 and then 16-23-39 at 21.  It's the logical growth projection.  We'd all like him to suddenly find it in his 4th season in the NHL but it's much more likely that he just stays on the progression he was on.

 

That's *exactly* what Zibanejad did in seasons 4 and 5 before Ottawa gave up on him and traded him for present value.

[Pete]

11 minutes ago, Br4d said:

That's a ridiculous characterization of Lafreniere.  He definitely looks better than he did his first year.  He doesn't look like a star prospect but he's been more productive minute-for-minute each season he's been a Ranger.

 

Assuming he gets the same minutes he got last season the expectation is that he'll be a mid-40's player, likely with 20+ goals. 

 

That's what you expect out of a player who goes 12-9-21 at 19 and then 19-12-31 at 20 and then 16-23-39 at 21.  It's the logical growth projection.  We'd all like him to suddenly find it in his 4th season in the NHL but it's much more likely that he just stays on the progression he was on.

 

That's *exactly* what Zibanejad did in seasons 4 and 5 before Ottawa gave up on him and traded him for present value.

Ottawa didn't give up on Zib. They were worried about not being able to pay his next contract due to a cap crunch. This has already been addressed multiple times, so I'm not sure why you keep saying that they gave up on him when that is not reality. 

 

Regarding Lafreniere, he looks no different on the ice, he is not faster, he is not stronger, he has not worked on his shot. That's why the difference is in his point totals over the last two years are negligible. It really all depends on what the player is around him are doing. 

 

The only thing ridiculous is the constant stanning for this guy. He's a bust. At this point you just want him to be a useful player and not a guy you barely notice is dressed or not, which he is now. 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Pete

[The Dude]

21 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

It’s what @CCCP said. He’s young enough to be considered s prospect. Worst case is he’s paid 3rd liner money to be a 3rd liner. Best case is he develops into a lot more than that. If he was holding out or getting paid above his station because of draft pedigree, then it’s a different convo. 

He doesn't fit 3rd line type role. He gotta go. Young center or RW.  

 

The Rangers don’t need a 3rd line LW with no identity. He's not a scorer. He's not a set up guy. Hrs not a banger. He's not a defensive Wizz.  He's just kinda there. That 3rd l8ne spot can be utilized by a player that brings something different to the table.  

 

Meh. I said all this last year too. Glad some people are coming around to the thought. 

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, The Dude said:

He doesn't fit 3rd line type role. He gotta go. Young center or RW.  

 

The Rangers don’t need a 3rd line LW with no identity. He's not a scorer. He's not a set up guy. Hrs not a banger. He's not a defensive Wizz.  He's just kinda there. That 3rd l8ne spot can be utilized by a player that brings something different to the table.  

 

Meh. I said all this last year too. Glad some people are coming around to the thought. 

I only care about 3rd line identity if I think the team is championship quality. I don’t. If I did, then I would probably agree with you, so I totally get your POV.

[The Dude]

20 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I'd say yes to both questions.

 

There's no patience with Lafreniere because he was a 1OA pick and he's not a 1OA level player. It's understandable, but the "get rid of at all costs" approach is too much of a knee jerk reaction. The Rangers should not let the initial disappointment cloud their judgment and devalue what he can still be, or they could easily miss out on a pretty good player.

 

To some degree, a similar feeling of disappointment has followed Kreider around his whole career. People had lofty expectations of him being an elite power forward year in and year out. There's a history of people shitting on him for not reaching those expectations. He didn't score 50 points until he was 25 years old, but he was/is still a very good player who they would have been wrong to trade.

The Kreider and Zibanejad analogies are stretches. 

 

Kreider was atleast useful if he wasn't scoring. He gave effort. He had a crazy training regimen and constantly got into better and better shape. He was a physical player.  Ask goalies from the 2012 -14 era. There's no comparison as to why you keep Kreider when he wasn't living up to full potential. 

 

Zibanejad was pretty good. Ottawa was just dumb. They weren't disappointed with him. He wasn't underachieving. They were just fleeced in a trade. I doubt you can find much negative press or fanfare on Zibanejad as a Sen. 

 

Lafrenière is Yakupov.  He's Pat Faloon. He's just not very good and there isn't a place for him here. If there was a redeeming quality shown on the ice, I'd see where you're coming from. He does nothing exceptionally well. There's nothing to hang a hat on with him. Besides the 1OA status, but we are forgetting that because it somehow doesn't matter.