Rangers Extend Qualifying Offers to Miller, Lafreniere, Others

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

I'm not even sure what you're arguing here?

 

I just said that there's no way the 2018 Vegas roster was better than the Capitals roster.

But the statistics don't bear out your argument. Vegas beat the capitals by a combined score of 7 to 3 in both regular season meetings.

 

Regular season:

 

Caps 105 points, 256GF, 237GA

 

Vegas 109, 268, 225

 

The argument can definitely be made that flukey season, Vegas was better than the Caps And certainly could hang with them and beat them, but they didn't. 

 

They were beaten pretty handily, worse than the Rangers this post season.

 

And yet people are still defending the coach as if he didn't play a significant part of this. 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Pete

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Just now, Pete said:

But the statistics don't bear out your argument. Vegas beat the capitals by a combined score of 7 to 3 in both regular season meetings.

 

Regular season:

 

Caps 105 points, 256GF, 237GA

 

Vegas 109, 268, 225

 

The argument can definitely be made that flukey season, Vegas was better than the Caps.

If that's the case it's because of coaching. Gallant had a roster full of players no other coaches wanted. Trotz had a star stacked team with multiple HHOF'ers.

 

And regular season H2H don't mean shit. I thought we all knew that by now.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

If that's the case it's because of coaching. Gallant had a roster full of players no other coaches wanted. Trotz had a star stacked team with multiple HHOF'ers.

 

 

It's hard to tell if you actually believe this, but if you do, there's no point in continuing because it's  a flawed assumption right off the jump. 

 

Quote

And regular season H2H don't mean shit. I thought we all knew that by now.

It's another retrospective proof point that indicates Vegas could hang with the capitals. I wouldn't say it doesn't mean shit, so no we don't "all know that by now." I would say it doesn't mean much when trying to predict the outcome of a seven game series, but when you look back at the body of work, the nights were absolutely on par with the capitals, And it could be argued that they were better... and there's really no way to argue otherwise as long as we're using actual data to back our arguments and not subjective opinions from before the season started.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Pete

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Just now, Pete said:

t's another retrospective proof point that indicates Vegas could hang with the capitals. I wouldn't say it doesn't mean shit, so no we don't "all know that by now." I would say it doesn't mean much when trying to predict the outcome of a seven game series, but when you look back at the body of work, the nights were absolutely on par with the capitals and there's really no way to argue otherwise. 

Well ok, thanks for proving my point then. Gallant got the less talented roster to play on the level of the highly talented, amazingly coached Capitals.

[jsm7302]

When these dudes gunna accept these offers? And why haven't we heard what they were?!?

[siddious]

14 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

When these dudes gunna accept these offers? And why haven't we heard what they were?!?

Probably minimum offer to keep their rights. I’m sure it’s being negotiated still.

[Pete]

30 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Well ok, thanks for proving my point then. Gallant got the less talented roster to play on the level of the highly talented, amazingly coached Capitals.

For that one year, yeah it was a fluke, which proves my point LOL.

 

His teams have been largely regular at 5 on 5. The one year he had a great 5 on 5 team he got spanked by a team they probably should have and definitely could have beaten. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

I've been watching the Lafreniere highlight videos from minors and international play before he was drafted.  There's a lot of material out there which is not surprising given that he was a #1OA candidate for several years.

 

His goals basically came two ways.  There were a *lot* of greasy goals in front of the opposing goal tender.  This was probably his most defining characteristic as a goal scorer.  He was reliably in front of the net and cleaning up rebounds and loose pucks in the crease.  We seem to criticize him for the character of his goals, since so many of them are in front where it appears he is a vulture cleaning up but this is exactly what he did in QJMHL and international play.  He was a total opportunist in front of the net.

 

Secondarily he was a give-and-go master.  The puck would go back and forth in front of the goaltender several times as Lafreniere kept sending it back to his teammate closing with him.  When he wound up with the puck last he got the goal.  He also got a ton of assists this way.

 

On the power play he was not the greasy guy in front of the goal however.  He was the guy up top feeding his teammates with cross ice passes for one timers.

 

We seem to have lost track of the fact that Lafreniere was *not* known primarily as a shooter.  He was a playmaker who would go down in front and clean up at the end of the sequence.

 

The Rangers have been using him 100% wrong for his skill set.  They're playing him with the wrong people.  Chytil is a match in some ways although he is probably too much of a shooter to fit perfectly with Lafreniere.  There's very little of the give-and-go there.  Kakko however is a total disaster as a matchup.  He wants the puck and he wants to go to the net and he's not looking to play off of a teammate in that process.  He's more than willing to set up a teammate driving on the goal but he's not looking for the kind of intricate give-and-go that Lafreniere specialized in.

 

Not sure how the Rangers can fix this because I think the two guys Lafreniere is most likely to be successful with are Panarin and Kreider - which is an almost impossible fit.  Panarin because he's absolutely willing to do the give-and-go he's only had one linemate good at it though that being Strome.  Kreider because he's really happy going down low in front of the goalie and playing catch with a teammate in front of the goal.

 

Also, the Rangers really need to take a look at Lafreniere running the power play from up top.  It's a role they use Adam Fox in and Fox is very good at it but it was Lafreniere's bread and butter before he was drafted.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Br4d

[BrooksBurner]

31 minutes ago, Br4d said:

I've been watching the Lafreniere highlight videos from minors and international play before he was drafted.  There's a lot of material out there which is not surprising given that he was a #1OA candidate for several years.

 

His goals basically came two ways.  There were a *lot* of greasy goals in front of the opposing goal tender.  This was probably his most defining characteristic as a goal scorer.  He was reliably in front of the net and cleaning up rebounds and loose pucks in the crease.  We seem to criticize him for the character of his goals, since so many of them are in front where it appears he is a vulture cleaning up but this is exactly what he did in QJMHL and international play.  He was a total opportunist in front of the net.

 

Secondarily he was a give-and-go master.  The puck would go back and forth in front of the goaltender several times as Lafreniere kept sending it back to his teammate closing with him.  When he wound up with the puck last he got the goal.  He also got a ton of assists this way.

 

On the power play he was not the greasy guy in front of the goal however.  He was the guy up top feeding his teammates with cross ice passes for one timers.

 

We seem to have lost track of the fact that Lafreniere was *not* known primarily as a shooter.  He was a playmaker who would go down in front and clean up at the end of the sequence.

 

The Rangers have been using him 100% wrong for his skill set.  They're playing him with the wrong people.  Chytil is a match in some ways although he is probably too much of a shooter to fit perfectly with Lafreniere.  There's very little of the give-and-go there.  Kakko however is a total disaster as a matchup.  He wants the puck and he wants to go to the net and he's not looking to play off of a teammate in that process.  He's more than willing to set up a teammate driving on the goal but he's not looking for the kind of intricate give-and-go that Lafreniere specialized in.

 

Not sure how the Rangers can fix this because I think the two guys Lafreniere is most likely to be successful with are Panarin and Kreider - which is an almost impossible fit.  Panarin because he's absolutely willing to do the give-and-go he's only had one linemate good at it though that being Strome.  Kreider because he's really happy going down low in front of the goalie and playing catch with a teammate in front of the goal.

 

Also, the Rangers really need to take a look at Lafreniere running the power play from up top.  It's a role they use Adam Fox in and Fox is very good at it but it was Lafreniere's bread and butter before he was drafted.

Good write up! I watched a bunch of his pre-NHL tape maybe a couple of months ago and came away with some similar impressions.

 

The negative first was I remember seeing a lot of breakaways and odd man breaks, where his foot speed was good enough to generate those opportunities by creating space from defenders at that level. Between the foot speed going from being above average in that league to below average in the pros, and the general decrease in frequency of odd man breaks at the pro level, it’s a good chunk of his pre-NHL offense taken away.

 

With that said, he did a lot of great work attacking the net and finding open areas and teammates, which you alluded to. Playmaker first, but not afraid to be the shooter either. I’ve seen these qualities translate, but without the necessary consistency…yet.

 

One major thing I recall taking away is how he was utilized on the PP. He was a distributor and being a distributor was possibly his greatest strength as a player pre-NHL. Here, he’s not only not in a premium position to do that on the PP, he sees scrap time on top of it. He’s been completely mis-utilized here in terms of capitalizing on his strength, but also developing it further. I find it understandable to this point, given the state of the team when he was drafted and who was in front of him. It was always a unique position for 2OA and 1OA kind of players to land.

 

The mis-utilization can’t continue much, if any, longer. At this juncture, I care more about focusing on the guys like Lafreniere who the team needs for the next 12 years to be consistent contenders, than I do shoving all in at a third straight trade deadline to support aging and declining stars who haven’t shown a knack for rising to the occasion and won’t even be here much longer. It is beyond short sighted, and it baffles me that so many long time Rangers fans aren’t realizing that they’ve seen this movie before.

[4EverRangerFrank]

@Br4D & BrooksBurner - excellent, excellent review! These comments should be sent to the Rangers coaching staff for consideration. Foot speed is key in the NHL and the drop-off you describe accounts for quite a bit of his 'meh' appearance. Also, did he gain weight after the draft? He seemed chunky as a Ranger. I hope someone sat him down this summer, took away the Dunkin' gift cards and arranged a PowerSkate lesson or two. We need him to shine some light on our offense.

[RangersIn7]

We’ve seen so little of him utilized in the ways described above.

 

[Art20c]

On 7/7/2023 at 10:53 AM, jsm7302 said:

When these dudes gunna accept these offers? And why haven't we heard what they were?!?

I don’t think these guys have any other choice but to sign if they want to play in nhl. The  only danger could come from other teams extending them their offers which rangers must match if they want to keep these guys. But so far it’s all quiet so if other offered were to be presented it would have already been done. 

[Valriera]

4 hours ago, Br4d said:

I've been watching the Lafreniere highlight videos from minors and international play before he was drafted.  There's a lot of material out there which is not surprising given that he was a #1OA candidate for several years.

 

His goals basically came two ways.  There were a *lot* of greasy goals in front of the opposing goal tender.  This was probably his most defining characteristic as a goal scorer.  He was reliably in front of the net and cleaning up rebounds and loose pucks in the crease.  We seem to criticize him for the character of his goals, since so many of them are in front where it appears he is a vulture cleaning up but this is exactly what he did in QJMHL and international play.  He was a total opportunist in front of the net.

 

Secondarily he was a give-and-go master.  The puck would go back and forth in front of the goaltender several times as Lafreniere kept sending it back to his teammate closing with him.  When he wound up with the puck last he got the goal.  He also got a ton of assists this way.

 

On the power play he was not the greasy guy in front of the goal however.  He was the guy up top feeding his teammates with cross ice passes for one timers.

 

We seem to have lost track of the fact that Lafreniere was *not* known primarily as a shooter.  He was a playmaker who would go down in front and clean up at the end of the sequence.

 

The Rangers have been using him 100% wrong for his skill set.  They're playing him with the wrong people.  Chytil is a match in some ways although he is probably too much of a shooter to fit perfectly with Lafreniere.  There's very little of the give-and-go there.  Kakko however is a total disaster as a matchup.  He wants the puck and he wants to go to the net and he's not looking to play off of a teammate in that process.  He's more than willing to set up a teammate driving on the goal but he's not looking for the kind of intricate give-and-go that Lafreniere specialized in.

 

Not sure how the Rangers can fix this because I think the two guys Lafreniere is most likely to be successful with are Panarin and Kreider - which is an almost impossible fit.  Panarin because he's absolutely willing to do the give-and-go he's only had one linemate good at it though that being Strome.  Kreider because he's really happy going down low in front of the goalie and playing catch with a teammate in front of the goal.

 

Also, the Rangers really need to take a look at Lafreniere running the power play from up top.  It's a role they use Adam Fox in and Fox is very good at it but it was Lafreniere's bread and butter before he was drafted.

Thanks. It's a great writeup.

 

I don't think I see him magically being effective utilized in this way, but we know what isn't effective, and it's his current utilization. Is that his fault or just coaching? I have no idea. Maybe it's both. Until I see some physical work in the offseason from the kid though, it will always be on him to fix. 

 

The powerplay note is particularly interesting. He's never getting that on PP1 on this team. He might be good at it - Fox and Panarin are perhaps some of the best two players of all time at distributing the puck on the powerplay. It's never happening. But what's stopping Laf from working on his deflections in front like Kreider did if that's where he gets most of his goals? It's just attitude. If he wants it, he'll do it. I'm not convinced he wants it yet. 

 

That said, it's perfectly valid to argue that he hasn't been utilized well. I agree with that too, but until his attitude changes I don't think the end result will change. A better attitude would help on both paths. 

[RangersIn7]

15 minutes ago, Valriera said:

Thanks. It's a great writeup.

 

I don't think I see him magically being effective utilized in this way, but we know what isn't effective, and it's his current utilization. Is that his fault or just coaching? I have no idea. Maybe it's both. Until I see some physical work in the offseason from the kid though, it will always be on him to fix. 

 

The powerplay note is particularly interesting. He's never getting that on PP1 on this team. He might be good at it - Fox and Panarin are perhaps some of the best two players of all time at distributing the puck on the powerplay. It's never happening. But what's stopping Laf from working on his deflections in front like Kreider did if that's where he gets most of his goals? It's just attitude. If he wants it, he'll do it. I'm not convinced he wants it yet. 

 

That said, it's perfectly valid to argue that he hasn't been utilized well. I agree with that too, but until his attitude changes I don't think the end result will change. A better attitude would help on both paths. 

It’s on both parties.

Im not sure that he has a bad attitude. Perhaps a bit lazy or even naive about what it takes in terms of conditioning. Either way, there’s a definite need for some change there. 

 

Seems more just immaturity than anything else. 

[Br4d]

I think it's the fact that he knows he's not being utilized well in the corners and he knows what being on the power play is worth and he's not getting much of that at all.

 

GG said on a couple of occasions that he kept putting the kids back together because they were too deferential when they got lined up with the vets.  Well, Lafreniere is a completely deferential player when he's playing at his best.  He wasn't a 60 goal scorer in juniors he was a 75 assist guy with 35 goals alongside that.  Many of the goals as a cleanup in front or at the end of a pass-pass-pass sequence that Lafreniere initiated and then wound up finishing.

 

If you're being used as a grinder and the expectation is that you're going to get in position for a great high percentage shot and the reality is that you're a playmaker who is going to clean up in front off of somebody else's shot, well that's a huge difference and it makes the woeful chinstrap a lot more understandable.

 

 

[Pete]

Peca will be key here because he's done a lot of "I know what you used to be, but that isn't what you're going to be here in the NHL." Lafreniere is going to need that in spades.

[Ozzy]

22 minutes ago, Pete said:

Peca will be key here because he's done a lot of "I know what you used to be, but that isn't what you're going to be here in the NHL." Lafreniere is going to need that in spades.

 

You mean coaching???  LOL what a great idea!!!

 

Hey dude...I know it's going to take a monumental stride, but I would love to see Donut Hole win you over this season!! 

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

You mean coaching???  LOL what a great idea!!!

 

Hey dude...I know it's going to take a monumental stride, but I would love to see Donut Hole win you over this season!! 

Maybe. I don't hate him. I just think he stinks. I'm tired of hearing the excuses and "Well you can't look at him as a real #1 overall...", the hell we can't. Too much mental gymnastics about how other guys (who are living up to their contracts), are the real problem...But not poor Laffy. It's not his lack of work ethic or demeanor, it's the misuse.

 

Bottom line is that if Kakko and Lafreniere came even close to their draft pedigree, this would be the most dynamic and threatening forward group in the NHL we wouldn't have to hear about how our 80-90 point players are really what's holding the team back.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

35 minutes ago, Pete said:

Peca will be key here because he's done a lot of "I know what you used to be, but that isn't what you're going to be here in the NHL." Lafreniere is going to need that in spades.

 

This is the road to two seasons and out for Lafreniere and the Rangers.

 

The other thing that is obvious from the tape is that he's an average skater who is a bit more steady on his skates in traffic than most players.

 

If the Rangers try to turn him into something he's not we're going to lose the star quality in a hurry, and BTW isn't that what's been happening for the last 3 seasons?

[RangersIn7]

19 minutes ago, Pete said:

Maybe. I don't hate him. I just think he stinks. I'm tired of hearing the excuses and "Well you can't look at him as a real #1 overall...", the hell we can't. Too much mental gymnastics about how other guys (who are living up to their contracts), are the real problem...But not poor Laffy. It's not his lack of work ethic or demeanor, it's the misuse.

 

Bottom line is that if Kakko and Lafreniere came even close to their draft pedigree, this would be the most dynamic and threatening forward group in the NHL we wouldn't have to hear about how our 80-90 point players are really what's holding the team back.

We will see.

Its a combination of factors.

Clearly he needs to do better and to do more.

We need both those guys to take another step.

 Though it’s really hard to deny that the production you see from all 3 kids is commensurate with their utilization.

They’re played on a 3rd line, playing 3rd line minutes or a shade over, etc., and that’s the level to which they’re producing.

 

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

They’re played on a 3rd line, playing 3rd line minutes or a shade over, etc., and that’s the level to which they’re producing.

They are playing there because that's where their play dictates they should be. Has any one of the kids forced their way up the lineup? For two seasons in a row have we not had to go wing shopping? 

 

Yeah, they don't get a lot of ice time, and when you see them it's really easy to see why they don't get a lot of ice time. 

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

This is the road to two seasons and out for Lafreniere and the Rangers.

 

The other thing that is obvious from the tape is that he's an average skater who is a bit more steady on his skates in traffic than most players.

 

If the Rangers try to turn him into something he's not we're going to lose the star quality in a hurry, and BTW isn't that what's been happening for the last 3 seasons?

I don't think the Rangers have been trying to change him into anything. 

 

But I think Peca will come in and say that the skill set that got him success in juniors is not getting him success in the NHL.

 

He's not the first player to be drafted as one thing and wind up something else. Even Kreider reinvented himself. The player you see today is not the player that came into the league. That's what Laugh is going to have to do. 

 

I also don't really care if he's two seasons and out. Whatever he's going to become, he might not become that here. In fact I probably bet on that. He's going to have to learn a hard lesson and maybe that lesson is playing in Phoenix or Calgary. 

[RangersIn7]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

They are playing there because that's where their play dictates they should be. Has any one of the kids forced their way up the lineup? For two seasons in a row have we not had to go wing shopping? 

 

Yeah, they don't get a lot of ice time, and when you see them it's really easy to see why they don't get a lot of ice time. 

 

1 minute ago, Pete said:

I don't think the Rangers have been trying to change him into anything. 

 

But I think Peca will come in and say that the skill set that got him success in juniors is not getting him success in the NHL.

 

He's not the first player to be drafted as one thing and wind up something else. Even Kreider reinvented himself. The player you see today is not the player that came into the league. That's what Laugh is going to have to do. 

 

I also don't really care if he's two seasons and out. Whatever he's going to become, he might not become that here. In fact I probably bet on that. He's going to have to learn a hard lesson and maybe that lesson is playing in Phoenix or Calgary. 

I agree with most of that. 
But I still feel it could go either way for him.

He absolutely needs to figure things out on his own end. Skating. Conditioning. Approach. 
Clearly that’s the biggest issue within his realm to control.

Needs improvement.

But those are actually easy areas to improve in.

There’s an element of improvement in those areas that just comes from experience and growing up in the league in fact.

 

Work is cut out for him though.

 

[Ozzy]

I think we're going to learn a heck of a lot this season as to what and who he is and may become in the NHL.  All the excuses are off the table now.  This will be not only the 3rd coach, but a savvy veteran coach, and add to that, a staff that can give extensive, descriptive feedback as to where to be, and why.

 

Laff absolutely HAS TO show he's going to be a foundation type player on this team for the next 7-8 years this season.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Ozzy

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

I think we're going to learn a heck of a lot this season as to what and who he is and may become in the NHL.  All the excuses are off the table now.  This will be not only the 3rd coach, but a savvy veteran coach, and add to that, a staff that can give extensive, descriptive feedback as to where to be, and why.

 

Laff absolutely HAS TO show he's going to be a foundation type player on this team for the next 7-8 years this season.

Yeah.

 

He needs to find himself in a significant way this season.

As much as I might continually bring up everything surrounding his development (or, in truth, lack thereof), it’s on him. 
Irrespective of anything else, there are deficiencies that he needs to correct and improve upon.

And even in light of the circumstances he’s operated under, few of any of which have aided in his development or have helped get the most out of him, there’s shit he needs to work on.

 

 

But he would absolutely benefit from from an improvement of circumstances.