2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

23 minutes ago, Pete said:

Sure there is, because NHL GMs don't make deals based on the worst 2 week of someone's career, while injured. 

 

The only way he doesn't get a long term deal is if that extent of the hip is worse than Kane is letting on. 

He's almost 35 when the new season kicks off and he had a bad year while managing a serious injury. I stand by my statement that no sane person will give him 5+ years (for 7m+).

 

15 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

How does this make sense? Higher AAV for more years for a 34y old?

 

1y/4.1m sounds about right tho.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

He's almost 35 when the new season kicks off and he had a bad year while managing a serious injury. I stand by my statement that no sane person will give him 5+ years (for 7m+).

 

How does this make sense? Higher AAV for more years for a 34y old?

 

1y/4.1m sounds about right tho.

 

I think it's just what the data model spits out as something that is incredibly unlikely, but still a non-zero scenario.

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

He's almost 35 when the new season kicks off and he had a bad year while managing a serious injury. I stand by my statement that no sane person will give him 5+ years (for 7m+).

 

How does this make sense? Higher AAV for more years for a 34y old?

 

1y/4.1m sounds about right tho.

 

Also, Malkin just got paid through his age 39 season. Ovechkin got signed through his age 40 season. It seems to be somewhat of a norm for HOF talents who are still producing to get paid close to 40. A 5 year contract would take Kane through his age 39 season. A 6 year age 40.

[LindG1000]

1 minute ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

He's almost 35 when the new season kicks off and he had a bad year while managing a serious injury. I stand by my statement that no sane person will give him 5+ years (for 7m+).

 

How does this make sense? Higher AAV for more years for a 34y old?

 

1y/4.1m sounds about right tho.

 

Kane has a history of being productive, and his growth curve (or decline curve if you so insist) likely suggests a very good player through his age 36 or 37 year. That's part one. And yes, he was still good for the NHL this year, just not good for what the NHL expects of Pat Kane.

 

I'd guess that part 2 is that the model lacks good comparables. The typical - if there is one - path for a superstar player is that they never hit free agency. Moreover, I'd guess most superstars don't get to FA at 34 - they're much more likely to have had UFA years bought and they'd either go UFA in their late 20s or never actually hit the market. The comparables here are like...Marleau, Pavelski...not much more. The 7m term is in line there - Marleau got 6m on a smaller cap, Pavelski got like 7.5 for 3 years at age 35.

 

His injury is simultaneously a factor and a very attractive thing in a flat cap world. 

 

At the end of the day though, Kane is a really unique and bizarre scenario. He's made his money, he has very specific wants, he's got an injury that likely requires surgery - I think it's foolish to even try and project this in any rational way. 

 

 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

3 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Also, Malkin just got paid through his age 39 season. Ovechkin got signed through his age 40 season. It seems to be somewhat of a norm for HOF talents who are still producing to get paid close to 40. A 5 year contract would take Kane through his age 39 season. A 6 year age 40.

Good points.

 

They both stayed with the franchises that drafted them tho, and in Ovi's case there was no chance in hell that he would leave. There were rumors with Malkin but I think most people knew he would stay. I also think Pitt knew that they would handicap the org for the next 5 years just to "keep the boys together". It's a decision that's easier to make and easier to explain to your fanbase when it's a franchise legend like #8 and #71.

 

I guess it's not as unlikely as I first thought, it just sounds completely crazy to me to give this version of Pat Kane 5y/7m+. While you can point to his point tally and say he "still got it" he just looked completely toast. And that was on a contending team with all the hype around how he wanted to play here etc. No contending team has the cap to sign Kane, so an unmotivated Kane for 5+ years taking up a big part of the cap while the team is trying to get competitive? I dunno...

[LindG1000]

3 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Good points.

 

They both stayed with the franchises that drafted them tho, and in Ovi's case there was no chance in hell that he would leave. There were rumors with Malkin but I think most people knew he would stay. I also think Pitt knew that they would handicap the org for the next 5 years just to "keep the boys together". It's a decision that's easier to make and easier to explain to your fanbase when it's a franchise legend like #8 and #71.

 

I guess it's not as unlikely as I first thought, it just sounds completely crazy to me to give this version of Pat Kane 5y/7m+. While you can point to his point tally and say he "still got it" he just looked completely toast. And that was on a contending team with all the hype around how he wanted to play here etc. No contending team has the cap to sign Kane, so an unmotivated Kane for 5+ years taking up a big part of the cap while the team is trying to get competitive? I dunno...

 

There were some moments where you saw the flashes. If it's really his hip, and it can be fixed, you take that gamble, imo.

 

Now, we cannot afford that. But...Buffalo can. 

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Good points.

 

They both stayed with the franchises that drafted them tho, and in Ovi's case there was no chance in hell that he would leave. There were rumors with Malkin but I think most people knew he would stay. I also think Pitt knew that they would handicap the org for the next 5 years just to "keep the boys together". It's a decision that's easier to make and easier to explain to your fanbase when it's a franchise legend like #8 and #71.

 

I guess it's not as unlikely as I first thought, it just sounds completely crazy to me to give this version of Pat Kane 5y/7m+. While you can point to his point tally and say he "still got it" he just looked completely toast. And that was on a contending team with all the hype around how he wanted to play here etc. No contending team has the cap to sign Kane, so an unmotivated Kane for 5+ years taking up a big part of the cap while the team is trying to get competitive? I dunno...

Yeah, it’s probably more what G said. Just not a lot of comparables.

 

I’m with you though. From what I saw, I wouldn’t give more than 3 years if I were a GM, but mostly I’d just be inclined to just stay away altogether. I guess it depends on the situation and how badly a team is hurting for talent - especially PP talent.

[jsm7302]

14 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

There were some moments where you saw the flashes. If it's really his hip, and it can be fixed, you take that gamble, imo.

 

Now, we cannot afford that. But...Buffalo can. 

And should. This could be a big risk/reward for them that could make them next year's Devils.

[Sod16]

Sign Kane for $7m for one year (far more than he's likely to get on a multi-year deal).  Give him the surgery, put him on LTIR for zero cap hit, activate for playoffs.

 

Kuchy, Kuchy Koo!

Edited May 8, 2023 by Sod16

[Sharpshooter]

A presumably healthy and 100% Patrick Kane would be an even better deadline acquisition than the Kane we got. lol

[Phil]

27 minutes ago, Sod16 said:

Sign Kane for $7m for one year (far more than he's likely to get on a multi-year deal).  Give him the surgery, put him on LTIR for zero cap hit, activate for playoffs.

 

Kuchy, Kuchy Koo!

 

 

Counter: don't sign Kane at all.

[RichieNextel305]

Late night attempt to draw up what may look like our roster next year.

 

What would everyone think of bumping Kreider down to 3rd line LW with Trocheck? I know about the bromance between he and Zibanejad. And Kreider has produced, at ES more so than I even thought. But the simple fact of the matter is we need to see if Lafreniere can be anything. And if he may not get PP1 time, maybe it is atleast time to give him time to skate big minutes on a top line. In addition, Kreider will still be the big body in front of the net on the PP and will collect his goals there.

 

So what I came up with, and listen, I’m not a capologist, so if this is over slightly, please let me know. I think it may be a bit close. 
 

Under my assumed lineup, Lafreniere and Miller both resign as RFA’s with bridge deals. Tarasenko likely will see more money elsewhere, as will Mikkola.

 

We will still need some talent in the Top-6, and while it may not necessarily be everyones pick of the litter, if Kane is willing to sign on the cheap for 1 or 2 years here and is healthy, it’s something Drury must consider.

 

In addition, to open up room, I see Goodrow unfortunately being a casualty here. With that, perhaps the Rangers can bring back Jesper Fast and bring in someone like Tomas Nosek to center the 4th line. He made under a million on his last deal, will likely not get a major boost and he can win faceoffs, which is an area of significant need. He and Fast can be your guys when it comes to relying on guys to PK. Also allows maybe Trocheck and Vesey to be another pair on the PK, which will save Zibanejad and Kreider from having to play in all situations.

 

Up front, I would be looking to roll like this:

 

Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Kakko

Panarin-Chytil-Kane

Kreider-Trocheck-Fast

Vesey-Nosek-Cuylle (or Motte unless he’s too much to put us over)

 

Just an idea. Gonna be a long few weeks so insomnia is a drug for some of us. Gives the kids a chance, balances out the lineup a little bit, still have some finesse. Kids are given a real shot. Panarin and Kane are given another chance, both with fires lit under their ass. Kreider can still be effective playing in that role, and that line can be a pain in the ass to play against. Little bit more balance, little bit more responsible lineup. Still has plenty of talent. Chytil gets a shot at Top-6 minutes with elite level talent.

Edited May 9, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

To have any kind of balance and to spread out the offense we need to make a good 3rd line. It worked with the kids last season, this season not so much.

 

Kreider - Trocheck - Vesey/FA would be a solid 3rd line. They're all very direct players and doesn't do the cross-ice, east/west bullshit the rest of the top 6 loves to do. Jesper Fast would be perfect, but if he's too expensive Vesey should work well on that line.

 

The problem with this is that we're again putting our hopes on the shoulders of Lafreniere (and Kakko). This will be the 3rd season where they're "gifted" top 3/6 spots to start the season just because we need it to work out. It hasn't worked before and I'm getting more and more pessimistic about the outcome.

[jamsim1967]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:43 PM, The Dude said:

Well. You forgot Othmann. So, obviously you're not thinking correctly lol. 

 

5+ mill for 2 RW or 1 RW and a 3C  isn't impossible. Chytil can move to RW and slot up, making the needs a 3C and and RW.

 

Grab a guy that can slot all over the lineup. Domi fits.  2RW. 3RW, 3C, 4C. He really was the guy they should have targeted instead of Kane. Gives you so many options. 

Kane was cheap ... And, he's Kane (or was).

[lefty9]

5 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Late night attempt to draw up what may look like our roster next year.

 

What would everyone think of bumping Kreider down to 3rd line LW with Trocheck? I know about the bromance between he and Zibanejad. And Kreider has produced, at ES more so than I even thought. But the simple fact of the matter is we need to see if Lafreniere can be anything. And if he may not get PP1 time, maybe it is atleast time to give him time to skate big minutes on a top line. In addition, Kreider will still be the big body in front of the net on the PP and will collect his goals there.

 

So what I came up with, and listen, I’m not a capologist, so if this is over slightly, please let me know. I think it may be a bit close. 
 

Under my assumed lineup, Lafreniere and Miller both resign as RFA’s with bridge deals. Tarasenko likely will see more money elsewhere, as will Mikkola.

 

We will still need some talent in the Top-6, and while it may not necessarily be everyones pick of the litter, if Kane is willing to sign on the cheap for 1 or 2 years here and is healthy, it’s something Drury must consider.

 

In addition, to open up room, I see Goodrow unfortunately being a casualty here. With that, perhaps the Rangers can bring back Jesper Fast and bring in someone like Tomas Nosek to center the 4th line. He made under a million on his last deal, will likely not get a major boost and he can win faceoffs, which is an area of significant need. He and Fast can be your guys when it comes to relying on guys to PK. Also allows maybe Trocheck and Vesey to be another pair on the PK, which will save Zibanejad and Kreider from having to play in all situations.

 

Up front, I would be looking to roll like this:

 

Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Kakko

Panarin-Chytil-Kane

Kreider-Trocheck-Fast

Vesey-Nosek-Cuylle (or Motte unless he’s too much to put us over)

 

Just an idea. Gonna be a long few weeks so insomnia is a drug for some of us. Gives the kids a chance, balances out the lineup a little bit, still have some finesse. Kids are given a real shot. Panarin and Kane are given another chance, both with fires lit under their ass. Kreider can still be effective playing in that role, and that line can be a pain in the ass to play against. Little bit more balance, little bit more responsible lineup. Still has plenty of talent. Chytil gets a shot at Top-6 minutes with elite level talent.

Sorry but I see these lines a a complete bust 

Lafreniere and Kakko  aren't  first or second line material

Our second line is completely soft and slow ,Chytil  will have a lot of responsibility on defense with these two forwards ,not sure he can handle it

[Cash or Czech]

3 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

To have any kind of balance and to spread out the offense we need to make a good 3rd line. It worked with the kids last season, this season not so much.

 

Kreider - Trocheck - Vesey/FA would be a solid 3rd line. They're all very direct players and doesn't do the cross-ice, east/west bullshit the rest of the top 6 loves to do. Jesper Fast would be perfect, but if he's too expensive Vesey should work well on that line.

 

The problem with this is that we're again putting our hopes on the shoulders of Lafreniere (and Kakko). This will be the 3rd season where they're "gifted" top 3/6 spots to start the season just because we need it to work out. It hasn't worked before and I'm getting more and more pessimistic about the outcome.

 

I think Kreider-Trocheck-Vesey was a line at some point during the regular season with some success. Gallant broke it up because the rest of the team wasn't doing so hot, but I really liked that combination. All of them have both some skill and some grit. Complemented each other well and got the cycle game going to maintain possession in the offensive zone, which we do so infrequently. The kids do that well together too, but it leaves Panarin-Zibanejad-x.

 

I'm also of the mind to somewhat break up the kids and put them with the talent. I don't think Laf-Zib-Kakko is the way to go, we tried that already. But to get away from that, we need Kreider on Zib's left. Our RW depth is really what's limiting us, same as last season. 

[Phil]

6 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Late night attempt to draw up what may look like our roster next year.

 

What would everyone think of bumping Kreider down to 3rd line LW with Trocheck? I know about the bromance between he and Zibanejad. And Kreider has produced, at ES more so than I even thought. But the simple fact of the matter is we need to see if Lafreniere can be anything. And if he may not get PP1 time, maybe it is atleast time to give him time to skate big minutes on a top line. In addition, Kreider will still be the big body in front of the net on the PP and will collect his goals there.

 

So what I came up with, and listen, I’m not a capologist, so if this is over slightly, please let me know. I think it may be a bit close. 
 

Under my assumed lineup, Lafreniere and Miller both resign as RFA’s with bridge deals. Tarasenko likely will see more money elsewhere, as will Mikkola.

 

We will still need some talent in the Top-6, and while it may not necessarily be everyones pick of the litter, if Kane is willing to sign on the cheap for 1 or 2 years here and is healthy, it’s something Drury must consider.

 

In addition, to open up room, I see Goodrow unfortunately being a casualty here. With that, perhaps the Rangers can bring back Jesper Fast and bring in someone like Tomas Nosek to center the 4th line. He made under a million on his last deal, will likely not get a major boost and he can win faceoffs, which is an area of significant need. He and Fast can be your guys when it comes to relying on guys to PK. Also allows maybe Trocheck and Vesey to be another pair on the PK, which will save Zibanejad and Kreider from having to play in all situations.

 

Up front, I would be looking to roll like this:

 

Lafreniere-Zibanejad-Kakko

Panarin-Chytil-Kane

Kreider-Trocheck-Fast

Vesey-Nosek-Cuylle (or Motte unless he’s too much to put us over)

 

Just an idea. Gonna be a long few weeks so insomnia is a drug for some of us. Gives the kids a chance, balances out the lineup a little bit, still have some finesse. Kids are given a real shot. Panarin and Kane are given another chance, both with fires lit under their ass. Kreider can still be effective playing in that role, and that line can be a pain in the ass to play against. Little bit more balance, little bit more responsible lineup. Still has plenty of talent. Chytil gets a shot at Top-6 minutes with elite level talent.

 

Any roster with both Fast and Kane almost certainly cannot be done unless you've traded Miller in this scenario?

 

Fast will make $3.5M, give or take. Kane, who the hell knows, but probably a heavily bonus-laden one-year 35+ contract with triggers that are sure to spill over into the following years' cap when they have to re-up with Kakko and Lindgren (and probably Miller and Laugh, if they're getting one-year deals).

 

Never say never, but also kinda never.

 

It's not nearly as sexy, but this is probably much more realistic:

 

Laugh-Zib-Kakko

Panarin-Chytil-Fast

Kreider-Trocheck-Vesey

Cuylle-Brodzinski-Motte

 

Fox-Lindgren

Miller-Trouba

Jones-Schneider

[The Dude]

3 hours ago, jamsim1967 said:

Kane was cheap ... And, he's Kane (or was).

They didn't need Kane. They needed grit that can score. Kane hasn't been Kane for 2 years. I find it odd that he admits to being injured for so long, yet he kept playing. And Chicago LET him play. He diminished his own value by not getting healthy,  on a team that was clearly in rebuild mode for a few years now. 

 

I also question how he passes any physical. Both to play for Chicago and to be accepted in a trade. Rangers Dr's didn't say anything about the fact that the guy shouldn't be playing and needs surgery? 

[MuddyInTheMiddle]

8 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Any roster with both Fast and Kane almost certainly cannot be done unless you've traded Miller in this scenario?

 

Fast will make $3.5M, give or take. Kane, who the hell knows, but probably a heavily bonus-laden one-year 35+ contract with triggers that are sure to spill over into the following years' cap when they have to re-up with Kakko and Lindgren (and probably Miller and Laugh, if they're getting one-year deals).

 

Never say never, but also kinda never.

 

It's not nearly as sexy, but this is probably much more realistic:

 

Laugh-Zib-Kakko

Panarin-Chytil-Fast

Kreider-Trocheck-Vesey

Cuylle-Brodzinski-Motte

 

Fox-Lindgren

Miller-Trouba

Jones-Schneider

Actually really like those forward lines with someone slightly more productive at 4C; someone else suggested Nosek.

 

Only thing that makes me scratch my head is how you have Fast at 3.5 million? He was had a 2 million cap hit on his last contract for almost the same production over the last 3 years, except now he is 3 years older. Am I missing something here?  

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, MuddyInTheMiddle said:

Actually really like those forward lines with someone slightly more productive at 4C; someone else suggested Nosek.

 

Only thing that makes me scratch my head is how you have Fast at 3.5 million? He was had a 2 million cap hit on his last contract for almost the same production over the last 3 years, except now he is 3 years older. Am I missing something here?  

 

Yup. Me.

 

On Fast, I'm just guestimating based on his last two years with the Canes. 14 goals, 34 points in 21-22 and 10 goals, 29 points this season. He's basically a 30+ point player, so use the $1M for every ten points meter plus depressed market and I feel like he can make a little more. Maybe $3 million flat if you give him years?

[MuddyInTheMiddle]

33 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Yup. Me.

 

On Fast, I'm just guestimating based on his last two years with the Canes. 14 goals, 34 points in 21-22 and 10 goals, 29 points this season. He's basically a 30+ point player, so use the $1M for every ten points meter plus depressed market and I feel like he can make a little more. Maybe $3 million flat if you give him years?

Well great idea on Nosek then!

 

I think Fast gets the same 2 million/3 year deal he is coming of off; maybe even slightly less as he is older now. Tops 2.25 million.  

[Phil]

Nah, not in this shitty free agent market. He'll get a decent pay day.

[RichieNextel305]

I’ve been talking about Nosek with a friend who roots for Boston. The more I hear, the more I like. He’s versatile. Good on PK. Nothing flashy. But he also is good in the faceoff dot, which is definitely an area of need. If he comes cheap, he would definitely be a welcome addition. I had mentioned him earlier. Still stand by him being a potentially good low cost 4C option.

Edited May 10, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[jsm7302]

Why didn't the Rangers get past round 1???

 

 

Brouhaha breaks out at the end of Game 4 in Florida
https://www.thescore.com/s/24996054

 

 

They don't got this fire!!

[BrooksBurner]

In a hypothetical Panarin trade, I'm pretty convinced the Ducks would be the best fit.

 

The Ducks do it for a lot of reasons. They have gobs of cap space to take Panarin's full cap hit, or at most the Rangers retain $1-2M. Panarin comes cheaper trade wise for them because the Rangers will be mostly happy enough to just clear Panarin's cap, and there's nobody on the UFA market who can do for the Ducks what Panarin can do for them. Panarin will help make that team competitive again and with only 3 years left on his contract is a short term commitment. The bonus for the Ducks is Strome is a 40 point player without Panarin and his contract is absolute crap as a result. This is an easy way to not only get Panarin, but make Strome useful again. I don't see much downside for the Ducks.

 

Panarin waives because he gets to play with Strome again and he gets to go somewhere where he can play his fun, loose, carefree game without getting blasted by the media. He'll get a lot of love from that team and the fans because he'll help make that team competitive again, similar to what it was like here the first few seasons.

 

We know all of the reasons why the Rangers do it. They free up cap space for top 6 reconfiguration, bolster the right side, and prioritize winning in the playoffs.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by BrooksBurner