2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

16 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Karlsson 

Burns

Hamilton and I'm sure there's more. 

 

There's going to come a time when this core needs to be blown up. Im wondering if that time is now... Why wait till everyone is at the end of their career and worth less in trade? 

Those three are liabilities in their own end and was only in the Norris conversation because of points total. Fox is among the best overall defensemen in the league, maybe even the best. You don't trade him just because he's soft.

 

Even if we're blowing it up like you seem to want to, we're not trading away a 25 year old. Makes no sense.

[Pete]

The talk of trading anybody doesn't make any sense until you see them under a different coach.

 

I keep saying it, and people keep denying it, but they're only suggesting trading Bread because they're mad. There has not been one realistic scenario suggested where the team gets better.

 

I don't want to hear about taking a step back. It's unnecessary. Run it back again and then see what you have. The idea that Panarin will be less tradable next year is another piece of fiction. He's easier to move with one less year on his contract. He's more likely to waive if he's only going to be in his new home for 2 years instead of 3.

 

But again, only in Ranger Land do we talk about trading Norris candidates in the middle of their prime along with the leading scorers on the team.

 

Even in Toronto, you know who they're not talking about trading? Matthews. Do you know why? Because he's the best player and highest scoring player on the team and they can't replace him.

 

Again, these are things only Ranger fans bring up. 1 series lost to the Devils and this forum turns into Rangers Twitter with the fan fiction and the Hot takes.

 

You know who we should really trade? Igor. He could bring you in a boatload in return, teams can still afford his salary, and we have Garand. It makes total sense!

 

Yeah, no. None of the shit makes sense. 

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Why not?

 

Teams trade Norris candidates all the time. 

 

Karlsson 

Burns

Hamilton and I'm sure there's more. 

 

There's going to come a time when this core needs to be blown up. Im wondering if that time is now... Why wait till everyone is at the end of their career and worth less in trade? 

 

Its not a realistic thought.  The Rangers are obviously going to keep going for it. Just food for thought. A conversation. 

 

 

You don't blow up a roster by trading the 25 year old star and keeping the 30+ guys.

[LindG1000]

3 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Those three are liabilities in their own end and was only in the Norris conversation because of points total. Fox is among the best overall defensemen in the league, maybe even the best. You don't trade him just because he's soft.

 

Even if we're blowing it up like you seem to want to, we're not trading away a 25 year old. Makes no sense.

 

I'd also add that all of those three were traded because their respective teams had determined that their windows were either closing or closed, their contracts were either up or moveable, and didn't think it was wise to commit to a long-term deal that hurts their chances of getting top picks. The sole exception in that group is the Hamilton-to-Carolina trade, and even that was basically the last move of the Flames rebuild after a few years of being legitimately bad.

 

We aren't there. Not even close.

[RichieNextel305]

You don’t trade Fox. As much as I wanted to take a baseball bat to his head and trade him to the Bad News Bears in the heat of the moment in Game 7, you don’t trade him.

 

But, he needs a coach or hopefully a wake up call (hoping for both) who lets him know that he needs to play with more urgency in certain situations (like, I don’t know, the playoffs?) and that he NEEDS to put more pucks on the net. Him deferring shots on the PP virtually eliminated the option for Mika at certain points because teams just knew Fox would never shoot so they’d over commit on him, and once he feels pressure he panics. And once he panics, he makes mistakes. And once he makes mistakes, his head goes back and he stares at the roof of an arena. And then it all snowballs. And, not that I’m calling him lazy, but he almost looks like he’s skating in mud at these points. And I get it, mistakes happens and slumps happen. But he can’t have what I’m almost tempted to call temper tantrums on the ice anymore.

 

Fox is a stud. But he has his warts. I do think/hope/pray they are fixable. But you don’t trade him. You’re allowed to critique a player and not want to ship him off to Uzbekistan. To me, I just hope these playoffs were a wake up call that he needs to up the ante in big spots. Because he has been very up and down in the playoffs over 2 years. The highs and lows have both been very extreme.

Edited May 16, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[RangersIn7]

5 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Those three are liabilities in their own end and was only in the Norris conversation because of points total. Fox is among the best overall defensemen in the league, maybe even the best. You don't trade him just because he's soft.

 

Even if we're blowing it up like you seem to want to, we're not trading away a 25 year old. Makes no sense.

I don’t know that soft is the best word to describe him.

 

The fact is that skilled as he is, he’s what, 5’10” and 180?

Not saying guys that size can’t be physical but most aren’t. That’s not his game. Not who he is. And it isn’t as though his defense suffers as a result. 
 

And do we actually want this guy banging bodies on the regular?

[LindG1000]

2 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

You don’t trade Fox. As much as I wanted to take a baseball bat to his head and trade him to the Bad News Bears in the heat of the moment in Game 7, you don’t trade him.

 

But, he needs a coach or hopefully a wake up call (hoping for both) who lets him know that he needs to play with more urgency in certain situations (like, I don’t know, the playoffs?) and that he NEEDS to put more pucks on the net. Him deferring shots on the PP virtually eliminated the option for Mika at certain points because teams just knew Fox would never shoot so they’d over commit on him, and once he feels pressure he panics. And once he panics, he makes mistakes. And once he makes mistakes, his head goes back and he stares at the roof of an arena. And then it all snowballs. And, not that I’m calling him lazy, but he almost looks like he’s skating in mud at these points. And I get it, mistakes happens and slumps happen. But he can’t have what I’m almost tempted to call temper tantrums on the ice anymore.

 

Fox is a stud. But he has his warts. I do think/hope/pray they are fixable. But you don’t trade him. You’re allowed to critique a player and not want to ship him off to Uzbekistan. To me, I just hope these playoffs were a wake up call that he needs to up the ante in big spots. Because he has been very up and down in the playoffs over 2 years. The highs and lows have both been very extreme.

 

I think you've got some points, but Fox's perceived lack of urgency is the direct result of one of his biggest assets. He's patient and smart - when nobody is getting open for a pass and even he can't see one, that's less an indictment on him and more an indictment on the rest of the team (and perhaps a bit of praise to the fuckin Devils defense). He's rarely going to carve up the defense end-to-end, but he's going to make that pass that nobody expected him to.

 

You don't ask the guy to give up what makes him special. You structure the breakout in a way that takes advantage of it as often as possible. 

[RichieNextel305]

28 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I think you've got some points, but Fox's perceived lack of urgency is the direct result of one of his biggest assets. He's patient and smart - when nobody is getting open for a pass and even he can't see one, that's less an indictment on him and more an indictment on the rest of the team (and perhaps a bit of praise to the fuckin Devils defense). He's rarely going to carve up the defense end-to-end, but he's going to make that pass that nobody expected him to.

 

You don't ask the guy to give up what makes him special. You structure the breakout in a way that takes advantage of it as often as possible. 

I’m not even talking breakouts; I’m talking all-around urgency and game awareness.

 

I remember in the game we lost to Carolina back in March. We’re down a goal with 30-35 seconds to go and Carolina clears the puck. Instead of skating back with urgency and some realization that the game does have an expiration that is rapidly approaching, he lollygagged back as if the game had 15 minutes remaining.

 

I agree with your points, that his IQ and methodical style is what makes him great. But again, he needs to have a better understanding on when things need a little bit of a push, and need a little bit more than just a pedestrian effort. And he really needs to stop the whole snowball effect from happening with him. When one thing goes wrong, he unravels. Case in point, he had a brutal Game 7 and instead of digging himself out of it, the ice became quick sand and he sunk.

 

I love Fox. How can you not? But like I said, he does have his warts and there are times when you watch him and it is literally watching art on ice. And there are other times you want to scream at him because you wonder if he understands what the hell is going on on the ice. Regardless, I hope he comes in with a fire lit under his ass. Because as much shit as we all as a fanbase have been talking about everyone from Gallant to Panarin to Zibanejad, it was Fox who was far and away the worst player on the ice in Game 7. I hope that serves as motivation for him going forward when it comes to the playoffs in the future.

Edited May 16, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[LindG1000]

7 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I’m not even talking breakouts; I’m talking all-around urgency and game awareness.

 

I remember in the game we lost to Carolina back in March. We’re down a goal with 30-35 seconds to go and Carolina clears the puck. Instead of skating back with urgency and some realization that the game does have an expiration that is rapidly approaching, he lollygagged back as if the game had 15 minutes remaining.

 

I agree with your points, that his IQ and methodical style is what makes him great. But again, he needs to have a better understanding on when things need a little bit of a push, and need a little bit more than just a pedestrian effort. And he really needs to stop the whole snowball effect from happening with him. When one thing goes wrong, he unravels. Case in point, he had a brutal Game 7 and instead of digging himself out of it, the ice became quick sand and he sunk.

 

I love Fox. How can you not? But like I said, he does have his warts and there are times when you watch him and it is literally watching art on ice. And there are other times you want to scream at him because you wonder if he understands what the hell is going on on the ice. Regardless, I hope he comes in with a fire lit under his ass. Because as much shit as we all as a fanbase have been talking about everyone from Gallant to Panarin to Zibanejad, it was Fox who was far and away the worst player on the ice in Game 7. I hope that serves as motivation for him going forward when it comes to the playoffs in the future.

 

I don't think those are lollygag efforts or pedestrian efforts. Game situation - with 30 seconds left and down by one, a defender pursuing a cleared puck should be expecting a forechecker coming at them to create a turnover and get the ENG. Further, if the puck is cleared, there's a good chance that a change is happening. If Fox can get that forechecker to commit down low, he's got numbers and a mismatch up the ice during a change, and the forechecker is at least four seconds behind the play. That's a situation he's very capable of taking advantage of - plays to his strengths.

 

He stunk in game 7 - no doubt about it - but I'm very much in the camp that he's never playing a game that bad for us again.

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I’m not even talking breakouts; I’m talking all-around urgency and game awareness.

 

I remember in the game we lost to Carolina back in March. We’re down a goal with 30-35 seconds to go and Carolina clears the puck. Instead of skating back with urgency and some realization that the game does have an expiration that is rapidly approaching, he lollygagged back as if the game had 15 minutes remaining.

 

I agree with your points, that his IQ and methodical style is what makes him great. But again, he needs to have a better understanding on when things need a little bit of a push, and need a little bit more than just a pedestrian effort. And he really needs to stop the whole snowball effect from happening with him. When one thing goes wrong, he unravels. Case in point, he had a brutal Game 7 and instead of digging himself out of it, the ice became quick sand and he sunk.

 

I love Fox. How can you not? But like I said, he does have his warts and there are times when you watch him and it is literally watching art on ice. And there are other times you want to scream at him because you wonder if he understands what the hell is going on on the ice. Regardless, I hope he comes in with a fire lit under his ass. Because as much shit as we all as a fanbase have been talking about everyone from Gallant to Panarin to Zibanejad, it was Fox who was far and away the worst player on the ice in Game 7. I hope that serves as motivation for him going forward when it comes to the playoffs in the future.

 

2 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I don't think those are lollygag efforts or pedestrian efforts. Game situation - with 30 seconds left and down by one, a defender pursuing a cleared puck should be expecting a forechecker coming at them to create a turnover and get the ENG. Further, if the puck is cleared, there's a good chance that a change is happening. If Fox can get that forechecker to commit down low, he's got numbers and a mismatch up the ice during a change, and the forechecker is at least four seconds behind the play. That's a situation he's very capable of taking advantage of - plays to his strengths.

 

He stunk in game 7 - no doubt about it - but I'm very much in the camp that he's never playing a game that bad for us again.

Also, was he at the end of  shift? If we was already out for 30-45, at the end of the game, was he gassed? 

[Sod16]

Trading Fox?  You can make an argument for it, but ultimately, you hear a voice from above that says "This Ends Badly."

[RangersIn7]

If we are going to bring up

break outs, any coach from the HS level and above will tell you that when you have success there it’s due to a systemic approach that the whole team adheres to. 

[The Dude]

15 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

You want them to blow up the entire roster again, just two years after "the window opened" just so we can rebuild and maybe get another Kakko and Laf?

 

Trading Panarin actually make sense although it's very unlikely. Trading Zibanejad (and especially Fox) doesn't make sense. Trading away a 25y Norris winner because he tends to be a little soft? Are we trying to replicate the Islanders roster?

I mean,  I've kinda been saying this is a hypothetical idea and Om sorry if that isn't exactly clear. 

 

It's not exactly what I want to do,  but I wouldn't hate the idea. 

 

The window closes when Shesterkins contract is up. Maybe a year before. If they don't make it to the ECF or the cup, this coming season, then what? How many years do we want to keep going at it with this core? 

 

While I don't -not- like these players,  I really don't have any sentimental attachment to a lot of them and have very little problem moving any of them. They're alright. But it's getting old already.

 

Zibanejad is on year 7 as a Ranger. Are we really ride or die with this guy for much longer?  Is Fox really a must have building block?  Maybe I just see them as a different kind of value for the not too distant future. 

 

I guess I'm trying to gauge what it's going to be like around here if they don't go to the next level next year. Because then it's practically a must to start rippingthis apart. No? 

[The Dude]

15 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Those three are liabilities in their own end and was only in the Norris conversation because of points total. Fox is among the best overall defensemen in the league, maybe even the best. You don't trade him just because he's soft.

 

Even if we're blowing it up like you seem to want to, we're not trading away a 25 year old. Makes no sense.

? Karlsson won it twice.  He was traded AFTER he won it. He was considered for one this year again. Bret Burns won it and was a pretty hard hitting physical guy in his prime.

 

The list of Norris winners is filled with guys who have been traded at one time or another before and after they've won it.  PK Subban has won a Norris. How many times was THAT guy traded? I'm sorry,  but a Norris trophy doesn't make a player untouchable. I'm kinda not leaning towards Fox being all that great defensively. Especially not the last 2 seasons.  He's really damn good though. I'd be stupid to say he's not amongst the top 5 or so,  D-men in the game.  But hardly the best all around. 

 

Meh. Trading away the biggest asset that brings back what would be a franchise altering return,  makes sense in the right situation. Don't care if he's 25, 26 or 27.  If it accelerates the eventual rebuild and nets cost controled 1st line talent. It's gotta be taken into consideration.  

[The Dude]

15 hours ago, Pete said:

The talk of trading anybody doesn't make any sense until you see them under a different coach.

 

I keep saying it, and people keep denying it, but they're only suggesting trading Bread because they're mad. There has not been one realistic scenario suggested where the team gets better.

 

I don't want to hear about taking a step back. It's unnecessary. Run it back again and then see what you have. The idea that Panarin will be less tradable next year is another piece of fiction. He's easier to move with one less year on his contract. He's more likely to waive if he's only going to be in his new home for 2 years instead of 3.

 

But again, only in Ranger Land do we talk about trading Norris candidates in the middle of their prime along with the leading scorers on the team.

 

Even in Toronto, you know who they're not talking about trading? Matthews. Do you know why? Because he's the best player and highest scoring player on the team and they can't replace him.

 

Again, these are things only Ranger fans bring up. 1 series lost to the Devils and this forum turns into Rangers Twitter with the fan fiction and the Hot takes.

 

You know who we should really trade? Igor. He could bring you in a boatload in return, teams can still afford his salary, and we have Garand. It makes total sense!

 

Yeah, no. None of the shit makes sense. 

It was pretty much hypothetical. Withball the trade Panarin stuff, I didn't get why the rest of the team walks away unscathed. And like I said in my last post. What happens if they don't get back to the ECF or the finals next year? 

 

When's the cut off date? When will enough be enough,  IF it doesn't get better?  Who survives and for what reason? 

[The Dude]

14 hours ago, Br4d said:

 

You don't blow up a roster by trading the 25 year old star and keeping the 30+ guys.

Who suggested that? I said blow it up. Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. 

[The Dude]

9 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I’m not even talking breakouts; I’m talking all-around urgency and game awareness.

 

I remember in the game we lost to Carolina back in March. We’re down a goal with 30-35 seconds to go and Carolina clears the puck. Instead of skating back with urgency and some realization that the game does have an expiration that is rapidly approaching, he lollygagged back as if the game had 15 minutes remaining.

 

I agree with your points, that his IQ and methodical style is what makes him great. But again, he needs to have a better understanding on when things need a little bit of a push, and need a little bit more than just a pedestrian effort. And he really needs to stop the whole snowball effect from happening with him. When one thing goes wrong, he unravels. Case in point, he had a brutal Game 7 and instead of digging himself out of it, the ice became quick sand and he sunk.

 

I love Fox. How can you not? But like I said, he does have his warts and there are times when you watch him and it is literally watching art on ice. And there are other times you want to scream at him because you wonder if he understands what the hell is going on on the ice. Regardless, I hope he comes in with a fire lit under his ass. Because as much shit as we all as a fanbase have been talking about everyone from Gallant to Panarin to Zibanejad, it was Fox who was far and away the worst player on the ice in Game 7. I hope that serves as motivation for him going forward when it comes to the playoffs in the future.

 

 

I get what you're saying here. The thing is, this seems to be a teammate type of thing. We have Zibanejad who whines to officials for no calls and it swallows him up for the game. Same with botched plays. He goes right for the tablet on the bench. Chytil has that same bug up his ass, when he gets robbed or he misses a decent chance.  It eats him alive and goes on these cold streaks. Kakko too. Panarin seems to be a guy that  gets annoyed and goes out there and tries to do it all himself, if he screws up. I can never really read Kreider.. Trochek just shoots all the time and seems to be stable most of the time. Lafrenière is just a bafoon and doesn't seem to play with any urgency. Ever. Miller gets a little squirrelly if he can't control the puck on any given night., but I think that's just normal for a guy his age. 

 

This teams mental psyche is  pretty weak. But this may be where an actual system relieves these stress issues and brain farts. If not... well,  that's what I'm eluding to with my hypothetical question. 

 

 

[RichieNextel305]

2 hours ago, The Dude said:

 

 

I get what you're saying here. The thing is, this seems to be a teammate type of thing. We have Zibanejad who whines to officials for no calls and it swallows him up for the game. Same with botched plays. He goes right for the tablet on the bench. Chytil has that same bug up his ass, when he gets robbed or he misses a decent chance.  It eats him alive and goes on these cold streaks. Kakko too. Panarin seems to be a guy that  gets annoyed and goes out there and tries to do it all himself, if he screws up. I can never really read Kreider.. Trochek just shoots all the time and seems to be stable most of the time. Lafrenière is just a bafoon and doesn't seem to play with any urgency. Ever. Miller gets a little squirrelly if he can't control the puck on any given night., but I think that's just normal for a guy his age. 

 

This teams mental psyche is  pretty weak. But this may be where an actual system relieves these stress issues and brain farts. If not... well,  that's what I'm eluding to with my hypothetical question. 

 

 

Oh I agree. And that’s why I wasn’t ready to pile all of the blame on Gallant. He had his warts and he paid for the fall. But, that doesn’t absolve the players themselves from a disgusting job in the playoffs. The psyche and mentality of that locker room is very fragile.

 

While guys like Zibanejad, Panarin and Fox can all win you games, they’re one giveaway from being flustered beyond comprehension. With Zibanejad, he needs his big brother Kreider to coddle him and tell him it’s going to be okay. For Fox, the head tilts and the lack of awareness on the ice at times. Panarin said what he said about lacking confidence. If we want to get anywhere, these 3 need to develop a killer instinct and be straight killers on the ice.

 

They’ve become soft. It’s the truth. I’m sorry. It can’t be that way. Sure, a new coach and new voice may ruffle feathers, reinvigorate the drive, set in a system to play within and all of that. And believe me, I understand that these things will all be welcome additions post-Gallant. But, this isn’t high school hockey. This is the NHL. These guys need to stop being mental midgets upstairs, and if they have a bad game or a stupid turnover, they desperately need to learn to roll with the punches on their own and not let one thing swallow up an entire game. As good as all 3 are, and believe me I know there are others I’m excluding here, but as good as all 3 are and as much as they can all win you games by themselves, they can also cost you a few by having themselves essentially crumble into dust with one issue.

Edited May 17, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Br4d]

Panarin, Zib and Fox count for more than a third of the cap.  If those 3 guys can't lead by example if nothing else then you have nothing.

 

The reason you have to find a deal for Panarin is that there have to be consequences for the collapse against the Devils that extend beyond the coach because the next coach is going to be just as handicapped by having a third+ of the cap occupied by those guys.

 

You need to clear out a vet and you need to do it in a way that says "you cannot suck in the playoffs on this team and have any certainty you will be here next season NMC or no."

[Pete]

5 hours ago, Br4d said:

Panarin, Zib and Fox count for more than a third of the cap.  If those 3 guys can't lead by example if nothing else then you have nothing.

 

The reason you have to find a deal for Panarin is that there have to be consequences for the collapse against the Devils that extend beyond the coach because the next coach is going to be just as handicapped by having a third+ of the cap occupied by those guys.

 

You need to clear out a vet and you need to do it in a way that says "you cannot suck in the playoffs on this team and have any certainty you will be here next season NMC or no."

It's amazing that you keep harping on one player, when really you could have written this post about Trouba and still been right. 

 

But you have your target and you're going to keep harping on it for months. 

 

They're not trading Panarin. It doesn't make sense for the team on the ice or fiscally. Time to move on. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

You just need to plug in a new coach with a different system and approach who can actually help these guys in-game and on the ice and see what happens. You make a few small tweaks and run it back.

 

This is a very talented and capable team. Just need the right guy

[Pete]

1 minute ago, RangersIn7 said:

You just need to plug in a new coach with a different system and approach who can actually help these guys in-game and on the ice and see what happens. You make a few small tweaks and run it back.

 

This is a very talented and capable team. Just need the right guy

Agree, a lot of these comments around the mental makeup of the team are just wild to me. 

[RJWantsTheCup]

Players could be looking at the tablets after their shift to see what happened because of a lack of coaching.   Without any guidance they could be searching for answers themselves.  

[RangersIn7]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

Agree, a lot of these comments around the mental makeup of the team are just wild to me. 

It’s just upset over what’s a disastrous end to the season. So people are picking apart everything.

 

But you have to start with the coaching. We all knew and saw Gallant’s shortcomings as a coach, and we all knew his MO and the fact that he tends to bump heads with the front office and not last too long in places as a result. It should come as no surprise that it’s happened here now as well. 
 

The roster isn’t majorly flawed. And it’s amongst the most talented in the league.

They just aren’t managed and deployed the right way and the lack of tactical adjustments and a seeming unwillingness to do anything but roll 4 lines and seldom play matchups hurt them. 
 

Thats what concerned me the most was Gallant…. NO MATCHUPS!

 

I don’t know that you can do that in this day and age. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by RangersIn7

[Br4d]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

It's amazing that you keep harping on one player, when really you could have written this post about Trouba and still been right. 

 

But you have your target and you're going to keep harping on it for months. 

 

They're not trading Panarin. It doesn't make sense for the team on the ice or fiscally. Time to move on. 

 

I'm not going to move on until I see value in keeping Panarin and that value is not there right now.

 

Panarin is a soft player who vanishes if the game gets chippy.  It's like he doesn't want to be on the ice when that stuff is going on.

 

That 8 minutes at the end of game 2 where the officials were sorting everything out by sending half the benches to the locker room?  That was the last time we saw Panarin do anything useful.  When the game gets like that he's checked out.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Br4d