Should the Rangers Consider Trading K'Andre Miller?

[Keirik]

34 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

If you're big and white and grinding on people at 13 odds are pretty good you have some other kids parents pissed at you.

 

If you're big and black and doing that in a mostly white scholastic system odds are you have a perpetual complaint going against you.

Where are you getting this from and where in the world are you trying to take this conversation to? 

[RangersIn7]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Sure, entirely possible, but I don't really see why we're trying to eDiagnose him through our television screens. Hell, I'm still waiting on that McDonagh "mean streak" to develop. Like you said, some guys are just gentle giants.

See: Rathje, Mike

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

He's not developing. He's learning. By your logic, they shouldn't have anyone on the team under 25.

 

You're still dodging that on a team full of defenseman who can't defend in their own zone (sans Lindgren), you're singling out Miller simply because you want to keep Chytil.

 

They will miss Miller much more than Chytil, now and later. This team needs defensemen who can beat the forecheck with their legs and the pass. Their list of defensemen who don't go boards and out is currently:

• Fox
• Miller

You can't replace his offense, but you can work with him on his defense.

 

I said no such thing. I just said this on the previous page:

 

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That's just one of a multitude of indirect benefits. I'm willing to sell Miller primarily to improve the blue line defensively. He's got some good offensive tools, but I just don't see any strides being made defensively. If anything, I think he's gone backwards there, which means he's not learning. As a converted forward, there's a real risk that defensive positioning simply just won't click with him. The team being so offensively talented up front (which is a great thing) needs a more stable, reliable approach on the blue line.

 

That's not a new thought either. I've been saying this kind of thing about Miller for a while now, so I feel like you're just trolling me.

 

I mentioned originally that a discussion about Miller should be in a separate thread because there's a lot of layers to it. I've also said elsewhere that they cannot dump upwards of $30M on their top 4 defensemen in a league that is driven primarily by forward talent. We seem to be in agreement that defensive success at a macro team level is largely about system and coaching, yet here we are talking about dumping money into another individual defenseman like it's a solution. The franchise should be putting an overwhelming lion's share of money into forward. If they do trade Chytil, his cap is better served by being re-invested into the forward group.

 

They also don't need Miller's offense on the blue line. Offensive depth on the blue line doesn't win 'ships. It's team defense and offensive depth at forward that does.

 

For the record, I don't even expect the Rangers to trade Miller, but they don't always do the right thing either - clearly.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I said no such thing. I just said this on the previous page:

 

 

That's not a new thought either. I've been saying this kind of thing about Miller for a while now, so I feel like you're just trolling me.

I know what you said, it's just hard to believe.

 

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I mentioned originally that a discussion about Miller should be in a separate thread because there's a lot of layers to it. I've also said elsewhere that they cannot dump upwards of $30M on their top 4 defensemen in a league that is driven primarily by forward talent. We seem to be in agreement that defensive success at a macro team level is largely about system and coaching, yet here we are talking about dumping money into another individual defenseman like it's a solution. The franchise should be putting an overwhelming lion's share of money into forward. If they do trade Chytil, his cap is better served by being re-invested into the forward group.

They can when the third pair makes $2M combined, which is totally doable.

 

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They also don't need Miller's offense on the blue line. Offensive depth on the blue line doesn't win 'ships. It's team defense and offensive depth at forward that does.

I don't see it that way and I don't think anyone in the NHL does. The points are what's going to get him paid, but the ability to beat the forecheck and move the puck up the ice to the forwards is something every team needs. It's very hard to generate offense when you're going off the boards and out all the time.

 

The reigning Stanley Cup champs had a defense so good they almost put 5D on PP2 when they had some injuries. Tampa has Hedman, Serachev, and McD, now tell me they don't miss McD at all there. It's absolutely part of it.

 

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For the record, I don't even expect the Rangers to trade Miller, but they don't always do the right thing either - clearly.

Good to know you feel your opinion is the only "right decision".

[BrooksBurner]

30 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't see it that way and I don't think anyone in the NHL does. The points are what's going to get him paid, but the ability to beat the forecheck and move the puck up the ice to the forwards is something every team needs. It's very hard to generate offense when you're going off the boards and out all the time.

 

You're right. The points are going to get him paid, cause it certainly won't be for his piss poor defensive positioning that's for sure. It sounds like you might be confusing getting beat by the forecheck versus beating the forecheck when it comes to Miller. He's getting caught flat footed, making bad pinches, and experiencing headless chicken syndrome in his own zone an awful lot.

 

30 minutes ago, Pete said:

The reigning Stanley Cup champs had a defense so good they almost put 5D on PP2 when they had some injuries. Tampa has Hedman, Serachev, and McD, now tell me they don't miss McD at all there. It's absolutely part of it.

 

Tampa is spending $22M on their entire defensive corps this year. NYR is almost spending $22M on their top 3, and that's with Lindgren at a bargain rate. Tampa traded McDonagh's $6.5M and signed Cole to replace at $3M, so even if you consider they kept McDonagh instead of Cole, they would have been spending ~$25.5M on their entire defense. They've got big Sergachev and Cernak raises incoming next year, where they will be back to spending ~$25M on their defense. If they kept McDonagh, that number inflates to $28.5M and it would cost them a top 6 forward. It seems they have an internal figure for how much to spend on defense without breaking the bank, and it's not $32M.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Scott]

2 hours ago, Keirik said:

Where are you getting this from and where in the world are you trying to take this conversation to? 

[Valriera]

I would trade miller because he's going to bring a lot more in a return than Chytil will while being of lesser value to the team.

 

To me, absolute value is not what we should be looking at. Our team is stacked on D. We don't need ANOTHER defenseman making bank, even though he might be a better overall player than Chytil. 

 

We absolutely need a 2/3c making 2/3c money if it's not Chytil. Also, we have one of those already -it's free to acquire. So you do that because it's cheaper

[Cash or Czech]

Still unsure what we're trading Miller away for. We don't have money for another big acquisition and our issue is defense.

[torontonyr]

Trade Trochek.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

You're right. The points are going to get him paid, cause it certainly won't be for his piss poor defensive positioning that's for sure. It sounds like you might be confusing getting beat by the forecheck versus beating the forecheck when it comes to Miller. He's getting caught flat footed, making bad pinches, and experiencing headless chicken syndrome in his own zone an awful lot.

Nah, I'm not confused. I used a reference you're unfamiliar with. Miller can get the puck out of his zone quickly with his legs and his passes, beating oncoming forecheckers. There's no one besides Fox who does it better.

 

I'm going to ignore any comments you make about Miller in the D zone, because anything you say about him can be applied to every defenseman not named Lindgren. I made my point, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

 

Quote

 

 

Tampa is spending $22M on their entire defensive corps this year. NYR is almost spending $22M on their top 3, and that's with Lindgren at a bargain rate. Tampa traded McDonagh's $6.5M and signed Cole to replace at $3M, so even if you consider they kept McDonagh instead of Cole, they would have been spending ~$25.5M on their entire defense. They've got big Sergachev and Cernak raises incoming next year, where they will be back to spending ~$25M on their defense. If they kept McDonagh, that number inflates to $28.5M and it would cost them a top 6 forward. It seems they have an internal figure for how much to spend on defense without breaking the bank, and it's not $32M.

None of this changes what I said.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, torontonyr said:

Trade Trochek.

Would.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Pete

[Art20c]

Miller will be RFA without arbitration rights. So, unless he’s offered a qualifier from other team, he ain’t going nowhere. He is ny rangers property no matter what they offer him as an extension. Once that extension is near the end, it might make sense to trade him depending on his further development and potential asking price from his camp. At that point he might become a causality of a salary cap. But before that I don’t see any reason to trade him. He is and will be relatively cheap for next couple of years.  

[BrooksBurner]

45 minutes ago, Pete said:

Nah, I'm not confused. I used a reference you're unfamiliar with. Miller can get the puck out of his zone quickly with his legs and his passes, beating oncoming forecheckers. There's no one besides Fox who does it better.

 

I'm going to ignore any comments you make about Miller in the D zone, because anything you say about him can be applied to every defenseman not named Lindgren. I made my point, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

 

None of this changes what I said.

You’re making a pretty great argument against yourself here. Agree 100% that Fox and Trouba could be better in the DZ. They also aren’t going anywhere, so Miller is the odd man out on the blue line to help get better in the DZ. You can hope he “learns” basic positioning at 24, but that’s hope-ium. Get someone who knows what he’s doing instead.

You used Tampa as an example of why you can spend $30M on top 4 D and $32M on defense. I showed they have not spent $32M even if McDonagh were on their roster. It might not change what you said, but it does make what you said wrong.

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

You’re making a pretty great argument against yourself here. Agree 100% that Fox and Trouba could be better in the DZ. They also aren’t going anywhere, so Miller is the odd man out on the blue line to help get better in the DZ. You can hope he “learns” basic positioning at 24, but that’s hope-ium. Get someone who knows what he’s doing instead.

 

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You used Tampa as an example of why you can spend $30M on top 4 D and $32M on defense. I showed they have not spent $32M even if McDonagh were on their roster. It might not change what you said, but it does make what you said wrong.

Survey says NOPE. I told you they regret not spending on the D. They wish they still had McD on the ice.

 

And look, while percent cap roster construction can be an argument, it can't be the argument. Of all the players there are to pay, one had the best season given the circumstances at their position. Call me when Chytil doubles last year's career output. You like to diminish offensive contribution because it helps your argument. But, it matters. And in a world where GG teams don't like defense, Miller is more valuable. Not less.

[Bugg]

Think a lot of this is coaching, or lack thereof. You see the flashes of Mille's high end offensive talent. Would like to think his size is something he can learn to use more effectively in his own end. But there are big guys who simply don't play all that big. Willie Huber comes to mind; big and offensively gifted, but was always soft. Grant you the stick check over the body makes you nuts BUT.....

 

Back to coaching; is there a defensive system here at all? Hard to fault a player when there's no real direction. Saw it tonight; with a 2 goal lead, NOBODY appeared to give the team any direction, like gain the zone, dump the puck, hang back, take a man. Looked like total panic, as if the Caps had a PP all of the 3rd period. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Bugg

[The Dude]

13 hours ago, Pete said:

Miller is a 40 point defenseman who gets no PP time. People don't realize how rare that is.

 

Miller can be taught to defend. You may be able to teach Chytil not to be completely useless when not scoring goals, but can't teach him to not get hurt.

 

This team has choices to make. You can't pay everyone and they can't pay Chytil much more than $4M. Nor should they. 

 

Miller as an asset has much more value than Chytil. Miller has been playing defense for 5 years, not 15 like many of his peers. He's just scratching the surface and is no worse defensively than anyone not named Lindgren.

 

Simply put, Miller shortcomings can be coached out. Chytils... Not so much. 

Not to nitpick,  but Schneider is pretty good defensively.  Sadly he's been paired with complete dog shit. Honestly he looked better with Jones, Hajek or Harpur. 

 

I like the overall potential of Schneider more than I do Miller. I think it comes down to who do you want to keep down the road.  Miller or Schneider? If Schneider keeps developing, he too will have to be paid decent money.  It won't be on his next contract but it should be soon. If they tie Miller up for over 5 for 5, I get nervous that Schneider would just have to go. I don't know what the cap is going to look like at that time, but all these proposed bridge deals for Kakko, Lafrenière, Chytil and Miller will be expired and they all will likely need significant raises. 

 

I like Miller and can appreciate how good he actually is offensively, but we have seen that sometimes you actually cant teach a player to be better defensively. It's his 3rd season man. This is pretty much what he is. And I don't have a huge problem with that. But, you can't keep them all and he would bring a pretty large return. It's definitely something that should be thought about. Nothing wrong with discussing it. 

[The Dude]

9 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Skjei stunk defensively. He would dazzle with a strong end to end rush at times. It got him that initial large contract with the Rangers. Let’s not repeat that mistake with Miller.

I think Skjei got 5X5. I think I'll take that for Miller, warts and all. THEN he becomes an even bigger asset. Even if the D side never improves,  that's a good rate for a 40 point D man. He'll always be tradeable. 

 

Miller 5X5

Chytil 4X4

And I have no idea what Kakko and Lafrenière warrant.  Probably somewhere in the mid 3s to 4 for 3 or 4 years.  

[Sod16]

A lot of this comes down to exactly what you are getting for him.  If you could get a 5th or 6th overall for him, you might even be able to sign a Tarasenko with the cap savings.  Miller for a stud prospect on an entry level contract plus Tarasenko.  I'd sure do that.  From the standpoint of an opposing GM, a 6th overall yields a player who will only 50-50 be as good as Miller, so someone might take that deal.  Sure, you have to pay Miller more than the entry level guy, but the latter is not likely to have impact for a few years, anyway.  Miller for a mid first rounder?  No.

 

I definitely do not advocate putting him on the block and getting what you can for him.  It would have to be the right deal, a pretty rich one.

 

We're only talking about this, as opposed to trading LaF or Chytil, because Miller would bring significantly more.

[Pete]

7 hours ago, The Dude said:

Not to nitpick,  but Schneider is pretty good defensively.  Sadly he's been paired with complete dog shit. Honestly he looked better with Jones, Hajek or Harpur. 

 

I like the overall potential of Schneider more than I do Miller. I think it comes down to who do you want to keep down the road.  Miller or Schneider? If Schneider keeps developing, he too will have to be paid decent money.  It won't be on his next contract but it should be soon. If they tie Miller up for over 5 for 5, I get nervous that Schneider would just have to go. I don't know what the cap is going to look like at that time, but all these proposed bridge deals for Kakko, Lafrenière, Chytil and Miller will be expired and they all will likely need significant raises. 

 

I like Miller and can appreciate how good he actually is offensively, but we have seen that sometimes you actually cant teach a player to be better defensively. It's his 3rd season man. This is pretty much what he is. And I don't have a huge problem with that. But, you can't keep them all and he would bring a pretty large return. It's definitely something that should be thought about. Nothing wrong with discussing it. 

It's his 3rd season and he is what he is? Not at all, especially for a defenseman. 

 

Schneider's defensive metrics are awful. Much worse than Miller's, and for all the criticism Miller gets his metrics are very good. 

 

Schneider plays right and Miller left so it's not a conversation. 

 

[BrooksBurner]

10 hours ago, The Dude said:

I think Skjei got 5X5. I think I'll take that for Miller, warts and all. THEN he becomes an even bigger asset. Even if the D side never improves,  that's a good rate for a 40 point D man. He'll always be tradeable. 

 

Miller 5X5

Chytil 4X4

And I have no idea what Kakko and Lafrenière warrant.  Probably somewhere in the mid 3s to 4 for 3 or 4 years.  

If the trade offers aren’t good enough for Miller this summer, I’d be going the cheapest 1-2 year bridge possible.

[BrooksBurner]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

It's his 3rd season and he is what he is? Not at all, especially for a defenseman. 

 

Schneider's defensive metrics are awful. Much worse than Miller's, and for all the criticism Miller gets his metrics are very good. 

 

Schneider plays right and Miller left so it's not a conversation. 

 

I don’t follow the Schneider/Miller overlap either and I’ve seen it a few times now. Schneider is the heir apparent to Trouba, and he’ll be cheap pretty much until Trouba’s contract ends. He’s not switching sides so it’s moot.

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

I don’t follow the Schneider/Miller overlap either and I’ve seen it a few times now. Schneider is the heir apparent to Trouba, and he’ll be cheap pretty much until Trouba’s contract ends. He’s not switching sides so it’s moot.

 

That's kinda the way I see it too.  I actually like both of them.  I know we can't keep everyone, but I think they're both going to improve.  K' has the higher ceiling in my book.  I haven't really looked at any of Schneider's metrics numbers. 

 

I didn't realize they were all that bad.  I actually feel pretty confident when he's on the ice.

 

Man, I must be missing something!!  LOL

[siddious]

32 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

That's kinda the way I see it too.  I actually like both of them.  I know we can't keep everyone, but I think they're both going to improve.  K' has the higher ceiling in my book.  I haven't really looked at any of Schneider's metrics numbers. 

 

I didn't realize they were all that bad.  I actually feel pretty confident when he's on the ice.

 

Man, I must be missing something!!  LOL

All you need to know is that he’s played with Hajek lundqvist jones mikkola and harpur and tinordi most of the season. He’s been fine IMO. 

[Pete]

39 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

That's kinda the way I see it too.  I actually like both of them.  I know we can't keep everyone, but I think they're both going to improve.  K' has the higher ceiling in my book.  I haven't really looked at any of Schneider's metrics numbers. 

 

I didn't realize they were all that bad.  I actually feel pretty confident when he's on the ice.

 

Man, I must be missing something!!  LOL

 

6 minutes ago, siddious said:

All you need to know is that he’s played with Hajek lundqvist jones mikkola and harpur and tinordi most of the season. He’s been fine IMO. 

Yes, and to add to @siddious, he's normally on the ice with the 3rd and 4th line who aren't that good defensively. Goodrow's defensive stats are awful. Only Vesey and Kakko could be considered good defensively. Their role should be to keep the other team pinned in their own zone on the forecheck, they are not a shutdown or checking line.

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, siddious said:

All you need to know is that he’s played with Hajek lundqvist jones mikkola and harpur and tinordi most of the season. He’s been fine IMO. 

 

It's this pretty much. Schneider pairings at 5v5:

 

w/ Harpur.  : 308 TOI, 47 GF%, 42 xGF%, 1.94 GA/60, 2.38 xGA/60

w/ Jones    : 159 TOI, 44 GF%, 50 xGF%, 1.89 GA/60, 2.28 xGA/60

w/ Hajek    : 140 TOI, 55 GF%, 37 xGF%, 1.71 GA/60, 2.71 xGA/60

w/ Miller    : 112 TOI,  73 GF%, 49 xGF%, 1.61 GA/60, 2.82 xGA/60

w/ Stinkola: 110 TOI, 60 GF%, 43 xGF%, 2.17 GA/60, 3.08 xGA/60

 

For comparison of what a great pair looks like:

 

Fox w/ Lindgren: 813 TOI, 62 GF%, 57 xGF%, 1.77 GA/60, 2.28 xGA/60

 

In theory, the Schneider-Jones pairing was the best one. The actual GF% is low, probably because they were a pairing early in the season when the team simply couldn't buy a goal. Also both goalies stunk, especially Halak who was brutal for the first couple of months. They still had the lowest expected goals against rate and the highest expected goal differential rate on this list. What a shock it is that a stay-at-home defenseman and a puck-moving defenseman work well together. But Gallant would rather have size at all costs because he's an asshole.

Edited March 15, 2023 by BrooksBurner