Should the Rangers Consider Trading K'Andre Miller?

[Pete]

43 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Well, I’m sorry you can’t see why there can be a connection between 33 points in 68 vs 34 points in 68

And I'm sorry that you're cherry picking a stat and not using the complete context but it's not surprising. 

 

You can go find someone else to take your little pot shots at. I'm not interested in debating two players who are not comparable and situations that are not comparable because people can't get off the ADA bandwagon. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Pete

[Long live the King]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Well, I’m sorry you can’t see why there can be a connection between 33 points in 68 vs 34 points in 68

 

Because it's not about the points.  It's about the roles the players were given.

[Keirik]

37 minutes ago, Pete said:

And I'm sorry that you're cherry picking a stat and not using the complete context but it's not surprising. 

 

You can go find someone else to take your little pot shots at. I'm not interested in debating two players who are not comparable and situations that are not comparable because people can't get off the ADA bandwagon. 

Sweet. Great. We both took enough pot shots. Now, I’ll go back to having the conversation and you can join in or not. Fine by me either way. Enjoy your day. 

[Keirik]

Just now, Long live the King said:

 

Because it's not about the points.  It's about the roles the players were given.

That’s fair. But in the end, both produced at near similar rates while at even strength. Context is hard because there is more to it than zone starts. If we want to use zone starts as evidence for anything I think we need a deeper dive to see if that zone start actually produced offensive production. The debate isn’t which coach implemented a better strategy. Hell, I don’t even care to discuss ADA specifically outside of just understanding a few things that I believe are important.

 

1. Miller does currently produces at a 40-50 point pace

 

2. if we want to keep a defenseman that produces at a. 40-50 point pace we need to take away from another area because of the cap. This leads to a couple of issues

      A. It’s tying up a heck of a lot of cap space on D.

      B. It’s taking Millers defensive woes and hoping they can be fixed even though I won’t hold my breath. Most NHLers at the very least know defensive assignments. Miller doesn’t. 
      C. There never will be a point where Miller gets significant pp minutes as long as Fox is here. While that’s fine since he produces at EV, is it cap space well spent paying a D to produce offense at the sacrifice of defense here? 

[Long live the King]

18 minutes ago, Keirik said:

That’s fair. But in the end, both produced at near similar rates while at even strength. Context is hard because there is more to it than zone starts. If we want to use zone starts as evidence for anything I think we need a deeper dive to see if that zone start actually produced offensive production. The debate isn’t which coach implemented a better strategy. Hell, I don’t even care to discuss ADA specifically outside of just understanding a few things that I believe are important.

 

1. Miller does currently produces at a 40-50 point pace

 

2. if we want to keep a defenseman that produces at a. 40-50 point pace we need to take away from another area because of the cap. This leads to a couple of issues

      A. It’s tying up a heck of a lot of cap space on D.

      B. It’s taking Millers defensive woes and hoping they can be fixed even though I won’t hold my breath. Most NHLers at the very least know defensive assignments. Miller doesn’t. 
      C. There never will be a point where Miller gets significant pp minutes as long as Fox is here. While that’s fine since he produces at EV, is it cap space well spent paying a D to produce offense at the sacrifice of defense here? 

 

B is the issue.  Because we say it about every dman outside of Lindgren.  Because there is no structure. 

 

All comparisons should be to Skjei.  Who also had over 30 EV point seasons.  We hated his defense.  CAR gave up a 1st for him and has no issue paying him over $5M AAV with their internal cap and giving him big minutes.  Because they know how to use him.  They also let ADA walk instead of paying him after putting up 51 points in 64 games. 

[SaveByRichter35]

Did Miller play C or W prior to being moved back?  If it was wing, which side was it?  Lastly, why was he moved back to D?

Edited March 24, 2023 by SaveByRichter35

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

B is the issue.  Because we say it about every dman outside of Lindgren.  Because there is no structure. 

 

All comparisons should be to Skjei.  Who also had over 30 EV point seasons.  We hated his defense.  CAR gave up a 1st for him and has no issue paying him over $5M AAV with their internal cap and giving him big minutes.  Because they know how to use him.  They also let ADA walk instead of paying him after putting up 51 points in 64 games. 

Fair, but I believe the biggest issue with Skjei was a regression after signing that contract rather than just being o really terrible at D. Carolina had ADA at 1m. They wouldn't pay Hamilton the year before. I just think they were going a different dire Rion rather than having too much of a gripe. They weren't giving him what Philly did. 

 

But anyway....

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

B is the issue.  Because we say it about every dman outside of Lindgren.  Because there is no structure. 

 

All comparisons should be to Skjei.  Who also had over 30 EV point seasons.  We hated his defense.  CAR gave up a 1st for him and has no issue paying him over $5M AAV with their internal cap and giving him big minutes.  Because they know how to use him.  They also let ADA walk instead of paying him after putting up 51 points in 64 games. 

Holy shit I was just coming to post this. 

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Did Miller play C or W prior to being moved back?  If it was wing, which side was it?  Lastly, why was he moved back to D?

I thought itbwas wing but I'm not sure. He moved back to D becsuse his high school coach needed another D and asked him to in his senior year I believe. 

[Long live the King]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Holy shit I was just coming to post this. 

 

[Long live the King]

2 hours ago, Keirik said:

Fair, but I believe the biggest issue with Skjei was a regression after signing that contract rather than just being o really terrible at D. Carolina had ADA at 1m. They wouldn't pay Hamilton the year before. I just think they were going a different dire Rion rather than having too much of a gripe. They weren't giving him what Philly did. 

 

But anyway....

 

Was it regression from Skjei?  The whole team fell apart in 17-18.  They sent the letter and AV got canned.  Quinn was no better.  And while GG has gotten results, its only because of Panarin, Zib, Kreider, and Shesty.  Not because of defensive structure.  The dmen have been winging it for years.

[Keirik]

19 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Was it regression from Skjei?  The whole team fell apart in 17-18.  They sent the letter and AV got canned.  Quinn was no better.  And while GG has gotten results, its only because of Panarin, Zib, Kreider, and Shesty.  Not because of defensive structure.  The dmen have been winging it for years.

It was regression yeah. 100%. He had a nearly 40 point rookie season at 22 years old with Calder votes to a down year when the letter came out where management looked at it as a lost year trading guys with no future here. Skjei wasn’t.  He was then rewarded with his current contract as an rfa with arb rights to buy future years as a foundation piece here. He wasn’t rewarded with that contract with the idea of trading him at a young age. In fact, when Trouba was traded for, he was paired immediately with his good friend Brady Skjei. The plan was for them to be part of the future. Things changed though. 
 

look, you can make the comparison between Miller and Skjei as well but I’m not sure what that proves outside of there are other guys as well that are comparable. I never said ADA was a sole comparison. I used him because he reminds me as the most lost in his own end when compared to Miller. I’m not sure why that’s so much of a problem. 

[Br4d]

12 hours ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Did Miller play C or W prior to being moved back?  If it was wing, which side was it?  Lastly, why was he moved back to D?

I believe it was C and he was asked to move to D late in his HS career.

 

Usually when somebody is asked to move to D in HS it is because their skating is a bit below the other players competing for spots.   That said I have no idea why Miller was moved to D.  Given what we've seen out of him they must have had some very good Centers ahead of him or some piss poor defensemen on that team.

[Pete]

33 minutes ago, Br4d said:

Usually when somebody is asked to move to D in HS it is because their skating is a bit below the other players competing for spots.

I'm curious where you're getting this from. The best skaters (not to be confused with fastest) are usually defenseman because there's much more transition, pivoting, and edgework invovled. Some players are also just better when the play is in front of them and they can see it develop.

[Br4d]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I'm curious where you're getting this from. The best skaters (not to be confused with fastest) are usually defenseman because there's much more transition, pivoting, and edgework invovled. Some players are also just better when the play is in front of them and they can see it develop.

 

Centers do the most skating of any player on the ice.  Defensemen tend to do the least outside of goalies.

 

If you see a high school Center moved to Defense the first you think about is probably overall motor.  The second is whether he has the speed to cover 200 feet of ice consistently.

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Centers do the most skating of any player on the ice.  Defensemen tend to do the least outside of goalies.

 

 

Has nothing to do with what I said.

Quote

If you see a high school Center moved to Defense the first you think about is probably overall motor.  The second is whether he has the speed to cover 200 feet of ice consistently.

None of this applies to Miller.

[Albatrosss]

24 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Centers do the most skating of any player on the ice.  Defensemen tend to do the least outside of goalies.

 

If you see a high school Center moved to Defense the first you think about is probably overall motor.  The second is whether he has the speed to cover 200 feet of ice consistently.

or maybe they just suck on offense

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I'm curious where you're getting this from. The best skaters (not to be confused with fastest) are usually defenseman because there's much more transition, pivoting, and edgework invovled. Some players are also just better when the play is in front of them and they can see it develop.

I gotta agree here. Defensemen usually are the best skaters at higher levels. High school, men’s leagues, etc have nothing to do with the conversation. 
 

I believe Miller was asked because they needed a D. Not sure how this translates to an assumption of skating ability. 

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Keirik said:

I gotta agree here. Defensemen usually are the best skaters at higher levels. High school, men’s leagues, etc have nothing to do with the conversation. 
 

I believe Miller was asked because they needed a D. Not sure how this translates to an assumption of skating ability. 

I also look at alot off good centers who weren't good skaters. Brad Richards comes to mind.

[SaveByRichter35]

Ok so if he was a C then I guess my idea of moving him back up to the forward group won't work.  I wonder how he was on face offs...

[The Dude]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:51 PM, Sod16 said:

Just curious, what do people think Miller brings in a trade (pre-signing)?

Top 5 pick in the draft plus a roster player or 2. 

[Keirik]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

I also look at alot off good centers who weren't good skaters. Brad Richards comes to mind.

Yeah there are quite a few. Brian Boyle, Richards, Dubinsky, et Al. I wouldn’t consider any fluid out there. There’s a heck of a lot more footwork on D and transitions. A bad skater on defense gets exposed pretty quickly. Trouba comes to mind. 

[Sod16]

6 hours ago, The Dude said:

Top 5 pick in the draft plus a roster player or 2. 

Overly optimistic I think.  I'd say No. 5-6 pick alone.  That's the equivalent of a No. 3-4 in an average draft.