Should the Rangers Consider Trading K'Andre Miller?

[The Dude]

43 minutes ago, Br4d said:

How many of those "hits" are just Miller using his large frame to box an opponent out on the boards?

 

He has a way of making contact that gets the job done but definitely does not leave the opponent regretting the contact.

I don't even see much of that. That's what I'm looking for. More of that.  We don't need him to punish anyone. Just make contact. Use your body. A little. 

[BrooksBurner]

11 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Meh. Just like Lafrenière is 2nd on the team in hits for forwards. 

 

Not buying it. 

 

Not buying that either. Anyone who watches the games knows Miller is a pussy.

[Pete]

23 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Meh. Just like Lafrenière is 2nd on the team in hits for forwards. 

 

Not buying it. 

Doesn't matter if you buy it, it is what it is. 

[Albatrosss]

The official hit stats are way off. They had Kreider with 2 hits tonight. Kreider had at least 5 solid hits that we all saw. We can all agree that the official NHL hit stats guy is a blind internet troll. 

[Dem]

On 3/15/2023 at 9:07 PM, Arty said:

K needs to beat the team bus with a sledgehammer

"Why are you doing that to the bus?' "To make it look mean!"

[Ozzy]

9 hours ago, CCCP said:

The official hit stats are way off. They had Kreider with 2 hits tonight. Kreider had at least 5 solid hits that we all saw. We can all agree that the official NHL hit stats guy is a blind internet troll. 

 

So am I, but I have a home here!!  LOL

 

Where the hell you been, dude!! 

[Pete]

12 hours ago, CCCP said:

The official hit stats are way off. They had Kreider with 2 hits tonight. Kreider had at least 5 solid hits that we all saw. We can all agree that the official NHL hit stats guy is a blind internet troll. 

Great, that just means Miller has way more actual hits than measured hits!

Edited March 17, 2023 by Pete

[CBrowningPI]

Miller should never be on the PP because he cannot keep the puck in the O zone like Trouba and Fox. He still has yet to learn  when pinching is a good idea. He has ALOT of work to do to be defensively sound. How much longer a leash is needed I can't say but he could be a perfect bargaining chip for the Rangers.

Edited March 17, 2023 by CBrowningPI

[Pete]

36 minutes ago, CBrowningPI said:

Miller should never be on the PP because he cannot keep the puck in the O zone like Trouba and Fox. He still has yet to learn  when pinching is a good idea. He has ALOT of work to do to be defensively sound. How much longer a leash is needed I can't say but he could be a perfect bargaining chip for the Rangers.

Yes, we should never put a 40+ ES defenseman on the PP. Makes perfect sense.

 

I'm so tired of hearing about how bad he is on defense and how he isn't physical with a whopping ZERO set of data points as backup.

[Pete]

Here's the data, boxcars and fancies.

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&stdoi=oi&rate=y&team=NYR&pos=D&loc=B&toi=0&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

 

Someone please post the data that says Miller is pointedly worse defensively than anyone else, and then show the data that supports the argument that swapping Miller and Lindgren wouldn't bring that data back to the middle.

[The Dude]

19 hours ago, Pete said:

Here's the data, boxcars and fancies.

 

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&stdoi=oi&rate=y&team=NYR&pos=D&loc=B&toi=0&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

 

Someone please post the data that says Miller is pointedly worse defensively than anyone else, and then show the data that supports the argument that swapping Miller and Lindgren wouldn't bring that data back to the middle.

 

You provided the link to the answer to your own question. 

 

The 2nd half of your request can't be done. For all we know Trouba looks like shit because he's paired with Miller. Trouba didn't look all too bad when Miller was suspended. Miller with Fox would possibly be a disaster. 

 

Anyway, this link shows a few things.

 

Miller seems to average the most icetime of the bunch 

 

He has the worst GA/60 for the regulars besides Mikkola, who I firmly believe is the worst D man they've had in years, next to Nemeth. 

 

He's up there with the worst if not the worst in HDC/60 and HDGA/69.

 

While they all kinda don't look great in most categories, the eye test and these little tidbits of stats kinda show he's not doing so hot. It's really not that debatable. Is he the worst in the league? No. Worst on the team? No. Least best defensively of the top 4?  Yeah. I'd say so. 

 

Trouba was really good before coming to the Rangers to be paired with Hajek and then Miller.

 

I never really dug the pairing. But the offensive numbers have really taken off and it's hard to say or do anything else with the top 4.

 

Pairing 2 offensive minded D men in Miller and Fox together, whom aren't the best on the D side, probably isn't going to work. Since you think Trouba is the problem with Miller's game,  I don't see what Fox would do to stabilize Miller in any way. 

 

Lindgren with Trouba though? I mean, I think that would strengthen Troubas game big time. 

 

An interesting pair would be Miller with Schneider though. But that isn't going to happen unless Trouba is out. 

 

Would coaching and a system fix all of this? I guess. But stick waiving and poke checking is a problem that gets embedded and doesn't go away. I think, this is what he is. 

 

 

 

 

[Pete]

44 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 

You provided the link to the answer to your own question. 

But you didn't answer it.

 

Quote

The 2nd half of your request can't be done. For all we know Trouba looks like shit because he's paired with Miller. Trouba didn't look all too bad when Miller was suspended. Miller with Fox would possibly be a disaster. 

Trouba wasn't impressive before before Miller got here.

 

Quote

 

Anyway, this link shows a few things.

Miller seems to average the most icetime of the bunch 

 

At ES, by :40

 

Quote

He has the worst GA/60 for the regulars besides Mikkola, who I firmly believe is the worst D man they've had in years, next to Nemeth. He's up there with the worst if not the worst in HDC/60 and HDGA/69.

Wrong. Behind Trouba, who he's coincidentally paired with. Like I said, show it to me with Fox and Trouba flipped.

 

Quote

While they all kinda don't look great in most categories, the eye test and these little tidbits of stats kinda show he's not doing so hot. It's really not that debatable. Is he the worst in the league? No. Worst on the team? No. Least best defensively of the top 4?  Yeah. I'd say so. 

Well the stats and the eye test say that it's Trouba who's the worst of the top 4.

 

Quote

 

Trouba was really good before coming to the Rangers to be paired with Hajek and then Miller.

 

I never really dug the pairing. But the offensive numbers have really taken off and it's hard to say or do anything else with the top 4.

 

Pairing 2 offensive minded D men in Miller and Fox together, whom aren't the best on the D side, probably isn't going to work. Since you think Trouba is the problem with Miller's game,  I don't see what Fox would do to stabilize Miller in any way. 

 

Lindgren with Trouba though? I mean, I think that would strengthen Troubas game big time. 

 

An interesting pair would be Miller with Schneider though. But that isn't going to happen unless Trouba is out. 

 

Would coaching and a system fix all of this? I guess. But stick waiving and poke checking is a problem that gets embedded and doesn't go away. I think, this is what he is. 

This is all your opinion which you're entitled to, but there's no data to support it. Especially he "stick waving and poke checking" nonsense.

 

Again, book keeping shittiness doesn't leave Miller with TWICE the hits Lindgren has. Books are kept by the home team, so even away teams see something you don't.

 

I trust them.

[Bugg]

2 hours ago, The Dude said:

 

 

 

Would coaching and a system fix all of this? I guess. But stick waiving and poke checking is a problem that gets embedded and doesn't go away. I think, this is what he is. 

 

 

 

 

Not screaming 'FIRE GALLANT!'. but there's no sense this team has a clue in it's own end late in games. Seen game after game they let teams take over and turn the game into a shooting gallery. When it's Vezina Igor, they survive, but Just Real Good Igor, gets dicey. Happened v s. Pens. Last 10 minutes before the ENG looked like a Pens PP. Miller was not alone in having no plan how to get the puck nor what to do with it one he or ay Ranger got it. 

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Like I said, show it to me with Fox and Trouba flipped.

 

So.... I just got out of the DeLorean. Sorry for the late response. I set the time circuits to the wrong time for my return. 

 

Anyway,  when I went back in time and had to hire the mob to press Quinn AND Gallant to play Miller with Fox for the last 3 years. The results were amazing. You were right man. WOW. Miller was a defensive force as well as an offensive one. Unfortunately Fox didn't win the Norris because of it. But Miller did!!!

 

Also unfortunate, is that Trouba still stunk like he did in Winnipeg-years prior, (which of course set him up to earn him a 7 X 8 million dollar contract that the Rangers gave him, because thats how it works.  Suck so you can get paid amongst the tops at your position.....) despite playing with Lindgren, whom all of a sudden became a soft turnstile . 

 

So in asking for something that can't be proven, I used a time machine to test you're theory. I applaud you for being correct. 

 

IF Miller played with Fox, instead of Trouba.  He WOULD  be good defensively. You're right. 

 

Sadly, I had to make a few trips back in time to reverse everything back to the way it is now. The space time continuum was completely screwed up, so I had to fix it.

 

I'm also now typing this on my neurolink technology superphone that only rich people can afford.  I used my sports almanac to place some bets. I'm now rich beyond all dreams possible and Miller is still baby shit soft on defense. 

 

 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

So.... I just got out of the DeLorean. Sorry for the late response. I set the time circuits to the wrong time for my return. 

 

Anyway,  when I went back in time and had to hire the mob to press Quinn AND Gallant to play Miller with Fox for the last 3 years. The results were amazing. You were right man. WOW. Miller was a defensive force as well as an offensive one. Unfortunately Fox didn't win the Norris because of it. But Miller did!!!

 

Also unfortunate, is that Trouba still stunk like he did in Winnipeg-years prior, (which of course set him up to earn him a 7 X 8 million dollar contract that the Rangers gave him, because thats how it works.  Suck so you can get paid amongst the tops at your position.....) despite playing with Lindgren, whom all of a sudden became a soft turnstile . 

 

So in asking for something that can't be proven, I used a time machine to test you're theory. I applaud you for being correct. 

 

IF Miller played with Fox, instead of Trouba.  He WOULD  be good defensively. You're right. 

 

Sadly, I had to make a few trips back in time to reverse everything back to the way it is now. The space time continuum was completely screwed up, so I had to fix it.

 

I'm also now typing this on my neurolink technology superphone that only rich people can afford.  I used my sports almanac to place some bets. I'm now rich beyond all dreams possible and Miller is still baby shit soft on defense. 

 

 

IF I read this post. But I didn’t. And I still love you. 

[SaveByRichter35]

22 hours ago, Pete said:

IF I read this post. But I didn’t. And I still love you. 

[Sharpshooter]

No.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Trade him now.  We might get McJesus for him tonight.  

[Keirik]

Best game of his career. Still wish one fucked Guentzel up Saturday night though. 

[Pete]

Just making haters look silly r/n. 

[Ozzy]

I guess we can close the book on this thread too now, eh?  LOL

 

Put this one with the "Trade Panarin" thread on the scrap heap! 

 

Fucking kid showed some pizazz last night.  Yeah, it was against two shitty teams, but that's what you do against teams like that....you plunge their face into the ice in a drubbing, and rack up some points!

[BrooksBurner]

Woah woah woah, not so fast @Ozzy ! It’s never been about offense with this kid. It’s about defense, and putting up points in two laughers only reconfirms what we already knew about him offensively. It’s also being done with an absolutely stacked offensive group, and it’s driving up his cost to keep and trade value simultaneously.

[Ozzy]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Woah woah woah, not so fast @Ozzy ! It’s never been about offense with this kid. It’s about defense, and putting up points in two laughers only reconfirms what we already knew about him offensively. It’s also being done with an absolutely stacked offensive group, and it’s driving up his cost to keep and trade value simultaneously.

 

I think he's a little young to be counted out defensively, RMC.  This kid has a knack for being able to use his reach to "disarm" shots.  Granted, he's not as physical as I'd like him to be, but that's also not a terrible thing in this day and age of the game.

 

His defensive play, as much as he's been under the microscope on our forum, has suffered at times, no doubt.  I simply can't blame that all on a guy who's barely 23 years old.  As a defenseman, I'm willing to give him more time to develop, and under this regime, I still feel there's a lack of "how do I improve?". 

 

I'm in the boat of, "Teach this kid, and he's going to be a Norris contender".  I'm just saying, if he had a guy like a Lidstrom teaching him how and what to do back there, he'd be capable of much more than what we're seeing right now....especially defensively.

 

This kid falls at the feet of the coaching staff.  He's got ALL the tools of a Leetch, Lidstrom, Housely, and also Fox....he's also a converted winger, so he most likely understands the offensive part of the game flow better.  If we get this kid a defensive tutor, like a Lidstrom, he'd be godlike back there!

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

I think he's a little young to be counted out defensively, RMC.  This kid has a knack for being able to use his reach to "disarm" shots.  Granted, he's not as physical as I'd like him to be, but that's also not a terrible thing in this day and age of the game.

 

His defensive play, as much as he's been under the microscope on our forum, has suffered at times, no doubt.  I simply can't blame that all on a guy who's barely 23 years old.  As a defenseman, I'm willing to give him more time to develop, and under this regime, I still feel there's a lack of "how do I improve?". 

 

I'm in the boat of, "Teach this kid, and he's going to be a Norris contender".  I'm just saying, if he had a guy like a Lidstrom teaching him how and what to do back there, he'd be capable of much more than what we're seeing right now....especially defensively.

 

This kid falls at the feet of the coaching staff.  He's got ALL the tools of a Leetch, Lidstrom, Housely, and also Fox....he's also a converted winger, so he most likely understands the offensive part of the game flow better.  If we get this kid a defensive tutor, like a Lidstrom, he'd be godlike back there!

All valid points for sure, and I don’t disagree with much if any of it. I critique him defensively, but I have never counted him out learning defensively at all during his career. The Rangers are operating under a clear window right now though and they have to make some choices on how to maximize it.

 

In the short term, I’m interested to see how he does defensively as the ice shrinks and the talent and forecheck on the other side improves significantly. I suspect we’ll see some major flaws again, and it might cost us dearly, but I do hope I’m very wrong on that. It might get chalked up as “growing pains”, which could very well be true, but it would be tough to take at this stage the team is in.

 

I also think this will be a massive barometer for how they handle his contract talks this summer, but there’s no question the 40-50 point season he is having is going to crush any idea of a low ball bridge from happening. @LindG1000 floated 2 years $3.75 per. I would bet my house that’s not happening. Start at Sergachev’s 3 yr bridge at $4.8M and go up from there is what it looks like IMO.

[Ozzy]

16 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

All valid points for sure, and I don’t disagree with much if any of it. I critique him defensively, but I have never counted him out learning defensively at all during his career. The Rangers are operating under a clear window right now though and they have to make some choices on how to maximize it.

 

In the short term, I’m interested to see how he does defensively as the ice shrinks and the talent and forecheck on the other side improves significantly. I suspect we’ll see some major flaws again, and it might cost us dearly, but I do hope I’m very wrong on that. It might get chalked up as “growing pains”, which could very well be true, but it would be tough to take at this stage the team is in.

 

I also think this will be a massive barometer for how they handle his contract talks this summer, but there’s no question the 40-50 point season he is having is going to crush any idea of a low ball bridge from happening. @LindG1000 floated 2 years $3.75 per. I would bet my house that’s not happening. Start at Sergachev’s 3 yr bridge at $4.8M and go up from there is what it looks like IMO.

 

Yup, I think we agree pretty much.  This week we'll see him exposed to teams with a ferocious forecheck, and he's going to have to make plays simply to get the puck out of the zone.  He's a pretty damn good skater, and he should be able to use his size to make those plays, instead of "hand grenade" it behind the net to no one, or cough it up to a defender.

 

I'm curious to see how he handles these games as we approach the playoffs.  I also wish they had someone that could be a Benoit Allaire for our defenseman.

 

It really is a flaw with most of the defensive squad, I think.  I've been calling it a lack of a "system".  I think they simply just don't know where to go with it sometimes!

 

As far as his next contract, yeah...I have no idea what the hell we're gonna do with that one.  I for one, if I have to make my choice over him or Chytil...I'd keep him for sure.  Chytil is going to be really good, but we're kinda hitched to Trocheck for the long haul here, and there's no replacing Zibby!  He's the fucking MAN!  I love the Zibber!

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ozzy