Barry Trotz: Yay or Nay?

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Jdog99 said:

I want to see the Rangers that came storming out of the gate the first few games, looking like they were going to drop 5 a game this season.

Look for them at a rink near you for the first five games of every season, where every other team is still trying to figure their shit out. 

[fletch]

Based on last year's playoff run, I think Gallant gets the whole year, unless around the all-star break the Rangers are in danger of missing the playoffs (5th in Metro) and obviously underperforming, or if he loses the locker room (which we can't know as outsiders).

 

You're getting a while bunch of regression to the norm (ex. Kreider).  Shesterkin isn't having a Vezina season so far, and isn't covering up as many issues in the defensive end as he was last year (and has been letting in more softies).  You can fault effort from skaters, but bringing in a drill sergeant type has a short shelf life, especially with today's athlete.  See Tortorella's short shelf life versus someone like Cooper.

[Pete]

Just now, fletch said:

Based on last year's playoff run, I think Gallant gets the whole year, unless around the all-star break the Rangers are in danger of missing the playoffs (5th in Metro) and obviously underperforming, or if he loses the locker room (which we can't know as outsiders).

 

You're getting a while bunch of regression to the norm (ex. Kreider).  Shesterkin isn't having a Vezina season so far, and isn't covering up as many issues in the defensive end as he was last year (and has been letting in more softies).  You can fault effort from skaters, but bringing in a drill sergeant type has a short shelf life, especially with today's athlete.  See Tortorella's short shelf life versus someone like Cooper.

What would Tort's shelf life be given Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov, Vazzy...

 

What would Cooper's, given Nick Foligno, Boone Jenner, Seth Jones, Bobrovsky?

[josh]

Ah, the old high from Pete defending Torts posts. 
 

 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, josh said:

Ah, the old high from Pete defending Torts posts. 
 

 

Dude keeps getting hired.

 

Dude's teams keep overachieving.

[josh]

33 minutes ago, Pete said:

Dude keeps getting hired.

 

Dude's teams keep overachieving.

Teams didn’t do worse after getting rid of him 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, josh said:

Teams didn’t do worse after getting rid of him 

Correct, because of all he taught them while he was there. 

[siddious]

I remembered the game last night and I’ve re-thought my stance. Someone change my vote to yes. 

[Richter35]

First post.

While I'm not against a coaching change, how about a players only meeting called by our new captain. Show some leadership and right the ship.

 

[fletch]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Dude keeps getting hired.

 

Dude's teams keep overachieving.

 

 

You forgot all the steps.

 

Dude keeps getting hired.

Dude's teams keep overachieving.

Dude's team gets tired of being ground down.

Dude gets fired.

 

1 hour ago, Pete said:

What would Tort's shelf life be given Stamkos, Hedman, Kucherov, Vazzy...

 

What would Cooper's, given Nick Foligno, Boone Jenner, Seth Jones, Bobrovsky?

 

It's a result driven business.  You win, you keep your job.  Obviously it's easier to win with the Lightning lineup, but Tortorella would wear out his welcome more quickly than Cooper.  Tortorella was never going to last 20 years at one place and get the gold watch, but the successful coaches with staying power don't constantly wear out their players.  Below, Tortorella, followed by Scotty Bowman for comparison.  Bowman was never going to get that gold watch either.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/tortojo99c.html

Coaching Record

 

				Regular Season								Playoffs
Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	W	L	T	OL	PTS	PTS%	Finish	G	W	L	T	W-L%	Notes
1999-00	41	NYR	NHL	4	0	3	1	0	1	.125	4th
2000-01	42	TBL	NHL	43	12	27	1	3	28	.326	5th
2001-02	43	TBL	NHL	82	27	40	11	4	69	.421	3rd
2002-03	44	TBL	NHL	82	36	25	16	5	93	.567	1st	11	5	6	0	.455
2003-04	45	TBL	NHL	82	46	22	8	6	106	.646	1st	23	16	7	0	.696	Stanley Cup Champions
2005-06	47	TBL	NHL	82	43	33		6	92	.561	2nd	5	1	4	0	.200
2006-07	48	TBL	NHL	82	44	33		5	93	.567	2nd	6	2	4	0	.333
2007-08	49	TBL	NHL	82	31	42		9	71	.433	5th
2008-09	50	NYR	NHL	21	12	7		2	26	.619	4th	7	3	4		.429
2009-10	51	NYR	NHL	82	38	33		11	87	.530	4th
2010-11	52	NYR	NHL	82	44	33		5	93	.567	3rd	5	1	4		.200
2011-12	53	NYR	NHL	82	51	24		7	109	.665	1st	20	10	10		.500
2012-13	54	NYR	NHL	48	26	18		4	56	.583	2nd	12	5	7		.417
2013-14	55	VAN	NHL	82	36	35		11	83	.506	5th
2015-16	57	CBJ	NHL	75	34	33		8	76	.507	8th	0	0	0
2016-17	58	CBJ	NHL	82	50	24		8	108	.659	3rd	5	1	4		.200
2017-18	59	CBJ	NHL	82	45	30		7	97	.591	4th	6	2	4		.333
2018-19	60	CBJ	NHL	82	47	31		4	98	.598	5th	10	6	4		.600
2019-20	61	CBJ	NHL	70	33	22		15	81	.579	4th	10	4	6		.400
2020-21	62	CBJ	NHL	56	18	26		12	48	.429	7th	0	0	0
2022-23	64	PHI	NHL	12	7	3		2	16	.667	4th	0	0	0

 

 

Coaching Record

 

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				Regular Season								Playoffs
Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	W	L	T	OL	PTS	PTS%	Finish	G	W	L	T	W-L%	Notes
1967-68	34	STL	NHL	58	23	21	14		60	.517	3rd	18	8	10	0	.444
1968-69	35	STL	NHL	76	37	25	14		88	.579	1st	12	8	4	0	.667
1969-70	36	STL	NHL	76	37	27	12		86	.566	1st	16	8	8	0	.500
1970-71	37	STL	NHL	28	13	10	5		31	.554	2nd	6	2	4	0	.333
1971-72	38	MTL	NHL	78	46	16	16		108	.692	3rd	6	2	4	0	.333
1972-73	39	MTL	NHL	78	52	10	16		120	.769	1st	17	12	5	0	.706	Stanley Cup Champions
1973-74	40	MTL	NHL	78	45	24	9		99	.635	2nd	6	2	4	0	.333
1974-75	41	MTL	NHL	80	47	14	19		113	.706	1st	11	6	5	0	.545
1975-76	42	MTL	NHL	80	58	11	11		127	.794	1st	13	12	1	0	.923	Stanley Cup Champions
1976-77	43	MTL	NHL	80	60	8	12		132	.825	1st	14	12	2	0	.857	Stanley Cup Champions
1977-78	44	MTL	NHL	80	59	10	11		129	.806	1st	15	12	3	0	.800	Stanley Cup Champions
1978-79	45	MTL	NHL	80	52	17	11		115	.719	1st	16	12	4	0	.750	Stanley Cup Champions
1979-80	46	BUF	NHL	80	47	17	16		110	.688	1st	14	9	5	0	.643
1981-82	48	BUF	NHL	35	18	10	7		43	.614	3rd	4	1	3	0	.250
1982-83	49	BUF	NHL	80	38	29	13		89	.556	3rd	10	6	4	0	.600
1983-84	50	BUF	NHL	80	48	25	7		103	.644	2nd	3	0	3	0	.000
1984-85	51	BUF	NHL	80	38	28	14		90	.563	3rd	5	2	3	0	.400
1985-86	52	BUF	NHL	37	18	18	1		37	.500	5th
1986-87	53	BUF	NHL	12	3	7	2		8	.333	5th
1991-92	58	PIT	NHL	80	39	32	9		87	.544	3rd	21	16	5	0	.762	Stanley Cup Champions
1992-93	59	PIT	NHL	84	56	21	7		119	.708	1st	12	7	5	0	.583
1993-94	60	DET	NHL	84	46	30	8		100	.595	1st	7	3	4	0	.429
1994-95	61	DET	NHL	48	33	11	4		70	.729	1st	18	12	6	0	.667	Western Conference Champions
1995-96	62	DET	NHL	82	62	13	7		131	.799	1st	19	10	9	0	.526
1996-97	63	DET	NHL	82	38	26	18		94	.573	2nd	20	16	4	0	.800	Stanley Cup Champions
1997-98	64	DET	NHL	82	44	23	15		103	.628	2nd	22	16	6	0	.727	Stanley Cup Champions
1998-99	65	DET	NHL	77	39	31	7		85	.552	1st	10	6	4	0	.600
1999-00	66	DET	NHL	82	48	22	10	2	108	.659	2nd	9	5	4	0	.556
2000-01	67	DET	NHL	82	49	20	9	4	111	.677	1st	6	2	4	0	.333
2001-02	68	DET	NHL	82	51	17	10	4	116	.707	1st	23	16	7	0

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, fletch said:

 

 

You forgot all the steps.

 

Dude keeps getting hired.

Dude's teams keep overachieving.

Dude's team gets tired of being ground down.

Dude gets fired.

 

 

It's a result driven business.  You win, you keep your job.  Obviously it's easier to win with the Lightning lineup, but Tortorella would wear out his welcome more quickly than Cooper.  Tortorella was never going to last 20 years at one place and get the gold watch, but the successful coaches with staying power don't constantly wear out their players.  Below, Tortorella, followed by Scotty Bowman for comparison.  Bowman was never going to get that gold watch either.

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/tortojo99c.html

Coaching Record

 

 

				Regular Season								Playoffs
Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	W	L	T	OL	PTS	PTS%	Finish	G	W	L	T	W-L%	Notes
1999-00	41	NYR	NHL	4	0	3	1	0	1	.125	4th
2000-01	42	TBL	NHL	43	12	27	1	3	28	.326	5th
2001-02	43	TBL	NHL	82	27	40	11	4	69	.421	3rd
2002-03	44	TBL	NHL	82	36	25	16	5	93	.567	1st	11	5	6	0	.455
2003-04	45	TBL	NHL	82	46	22	8	6	106	.646	1st	23	16	7	0	.696	Stanley Cup Champions
2005-06	47	TBL	NHL	82	43	33		6	92	.561	2nd	5	1	4	0	.200
2006-07	48	TBL	NHL	82	44	33		5	93	.567	2nd	6	2	4	0	.333
2007-08	49	TBL	NHL	82	31	42		9	71	.433	5th
2008-09	50	NYR	NHL	21	12	7		2	26	.619	4th	7	3	4		.429
2009-10	51	NYR	NHL	82	38	33		11	87	.530	4th
2010-11	52	NYR	NHL	82	44	33		5	93	.567	3rd	5	1	4		.200
2011-12	53	NYR	NHL	82	51	24		7	109	.665	1st	20	10	10		.500
2012-13	54	NYR	NHL	48	26	18		4	56	.583	2nd	12	5	7		.417
2013-14	55	VAN	NHL	82	36	35		11	83	.506	5th
2015-16	57	CBJ	NHL	75	34	33		8	76	.507	8th	0	0	0
2016-17	58	CBJ	NHL	82	50	24		8	108	.659	3rd	5	1	4		.200
2017-18	59	CBJ	NHL	82	45	30		7	97	.591	4th	6	2	4		.333
2018-19	60	CBJ	NHL	82	47	31		4	98	.598	5th	10	6	4		.600
2019-20	61	CBJ	NHL	70	33	22		15	81	.579	4th	10	4	6		.400
2020-21	62	CBJ	NHL	56	18	26		12	48	.429	7th	0	0	0
2022-23	64	PHI	NHL	12	7	3		2	16	.667	4th	0	0	0

 

 

Coaching Record

 

• Share & Export
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				Regular Season								Playoffs
Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	W	L	T	OL	PTS	PTS%	Finish	G	W	L	T	W-L%	Notes
1967-68	34	STL	NHL	58	23	21	14		60	.517	3rd	18	8	10	0	.444
1968-69	35	STL	NHL	76	37	25	14		88	.579	1st	12	8	4	0	.667
1969-70	36	STL	NHL	76	37	27	12		86	.566	1st	16	8	8	0	.500
1970-71	37	STL	NHL	28	13	10	5		31	.554	2nd	6	2	4	0	.333
1971-72	38	MTL	NHL	78	46	16	16		108	.692	3rd	6	2	4	0	.333
1972-73	39	MTL	NHL	78	52	10	16		120	.769	1st	17	12	5	0	.706	Stanley Cup Champions
1973-74	40	MTL	NHL	78	45	24	9		99	.635	2nd	6	2	4	0	.333
1974-75	41	MTL	NHL	80	47	14	19		113	.706	1st	11	6	5	0	.545
1975-76	42	MTL	NHL	80	58	11	11		127	.794	1st	13	12	1	0	.923	Stanley Cup Champions
1976-77	43	MTL	NHL	80	60	8	12		132	.825	1st	14	12	2	0	.857	Stanley Cup Champions
1977-78	44	MTL	NHL	80	59	10	11		129	.806	1st	15	12	3	0	.800	Stanley Cup Champions
1978-79	45	MTL	NHL	80	52	17	11		115	.719	1st	16	12	4	0	.750	Stanley Cup Champions
1979-80	46	BUF	NHL	80	47	17	16		110	.688	1st	14	9	5	0	.643
1981-82	48	BUF	NHL	35	18	10	7		43	.614	3rd	4	1	3	0	.250
1982-83	49	BUF	NHL	80	38	29	13		89	.556	3rd	10	6	4	0	.600
1983-84	50	BUF	NHL	80	48	25	7		103	.644	2nd	3	0	3	0	.000
1984-85	51	BUF	NHL	80	38	28	14		90	.563	3rd	5	2	3	0	.400
1985-86	52	BUF	NHL	37	18	18	1		37	.500	5th
1986-87	53	BUF	NHL	12	3	7	2		8	.333	5th
1991-92	58	PIT	NHL	80	39	32	9		87	.544	3rd	21	16	5	0	.762	Stanley Cup Champions
1992-93	59	PIT	NHL	84	56	21	7		119	.708	1st	12	7	5	0	.583
1993-94	60	DET	NHL	84	46	30	8		100	.595	1st	7	3	4	0	.429
1994-95	61	DET	NHL	48	33	11	4		70	.729	1st	18	12	6	0	.667	Western Conference Champions
1995-96	62	DET	NHL	82	62	13	7		131	.799	1st	19	10	9	0	.526
1996-97	63	DET	NHL	82	38	26	18		94	.573	2nd	20	16	4	0	.800	Stanley Cup Champions
1997-98	64	DET	NHL	82	44	23	15		103	.628	2nd	22	16	6	0	.727	Stanley Cup Champions
1998-99	65	DET	NHL	77	39	31	7		85	.552	1st	10	6	4	0	.600
1999-00	66	DET	NHL	82	48	22	10	2	108	.659	2nd	9	5	4	0	.556
2000-01	67	DET	NHL	82	49	20	9	4	111	.677	1st	6	2	4	0	.333
2001-02	68	DET	NHL	82	51	17	10	4	116	.707	1st	23	16	7	0

Not really clear on where you're standing. 

 

Seems to me most coaches don't last past 5 years. Rangers have tried "no system" for about that. May be time to try structure. 

[fletch]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

Not really clear on where you're standing. 

 

Seems to me most coaches don't last past 5 years. Rangers have tried "no system" for about that. May be time to try structure. 

I’m for giving Gallant rest of year based on last years playoff run unless team falls apart completely.  I see structure but ineffective play, particularly in the defensive zone.  At same point when multiple coaches are seeing the same results, it’s more likely to be a roster issue than a coaching issue.  If defensemen aren’t working hard to back check, some coaches might healthy scratch, others might air in the press, others might address privately.  But if the player has the same issue with multiple coaches is that a player, coach, or gm issue?

[The Dude]

I'd wait for Laviolette to get fired or walk after this season as a FA. 

[Br4d]

GG's not getting the heave-ho this season.  What happens if they make a move and nothing changes?

 

The build is all screwed up is what happens and Drury is on thin ice.

[cupalife]

5 hours ago, Pete said:

Not really clear on where you're standing. 

 

Seems to me most coaches don't last past 5 years. Rangers have tried "no system" for about that. May be time to try structure. 

yes please

[Gravesy]

Agree that Trotz would bring exactly what this team has needed since AV walked through the door.

Guys a phenomenal coach and we'd be lucky to have him. 

My one worry, and it's not insignificant, is that I can hardly think of a forward group that is a worse fit for what Trotz wants to do and has had success with. If you look at his really good teams, they all had skilled guys in the top 6 who were capable of playing a heavy, physical and structured game when needed. I don't think the Rangers have a single guy on the roster who fits the bill except, I guess, maybe Kreider at a push? Lafreniere could be that guy in theory.  

So while I'd be all aboard a Trotz hire I'd be a bit worried about whether he could get a tune out of the forward group as currently constructed.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Gravesy

[Br4d]

The problem with the Rangers right now is that they're a construct of two different GM's and the cap got squeezed in the transition.

 

They don't have good consistency up front because too many guys are drafts of the last regime and unfortunately they don't meld particularly well with the big contract decisions that regime made.  Lots of talent up front but it is a loose amalgamation that does not gel into a stronger whole.

 

The defense has a ton of talent but it is your typical assemblage of Ranger blueline talent, better in the offensive zone and transition than in front of their own net.

 

Overall the cap is unbalanced left to right and back to front.

 

Changing coaches here would likely just lead to a GM change in the near future and who wants to go through that again?

[jsm7302]

43 minutes ago, Br4d said:

The problem with the Rangers right now is that they're a construct of two different GM's and the cap got squeezed in the transition.

 

They don't have good consistency up front because too many guys are drafts of the last regime and unfortunately they don't meld particularly well with the big contract decisions that regime made.  Lots of talent up front but it is a loose amalgamation that does not gel into a stronger whole.

 

The defense has a ton of talent but it is your typical assemblage of Ranger blueline talent, better in the offensive zone and transition than in front of their own net.

 

Overall the cap is unbalanced left to right and back to front.

 

Changing coaches here would likely just lead to a GM change in the near future and who wants to go through that again?

Drury was a part of those decisions. He wasn't an external hire. Although I agree with our defensive deficiencies, I see it as a systems issue as opposed to a personnel issue. I like our roster construction especially our forwards. We have a way of getting hot and putting a team on it's heels which this org hasn't been able to do for a while. Sustaining is the issue. A coach change will give a chance for new systems to take hold.

[Rangers]

I like GG because of his personality, but he has no system, seems like he differs everything to his assistant coaches.

I feel like he needs a team that is stacked to win the cup in order for him to win the cup.

 

I think Trots wold be better here.

[Keirik]

2 minutes ago, Rangers said:

I like GG because of his personality, but he has no system, seems like he differs everything to his assistant coaches.

I feel like he needs a team that is stacked to win the cup in order for him to win the cup.

 

I think Trots wold be better here.

Are we forgetting that Gallant took an expansion team to the cup finals? Certainly not a normal expansion team but not a stacked team by any means. 

[Rangers]

2 minutes ago, Keirik said:

Are we forgetting that Gallant took an expansion team to the cup finals? Certainly not a normal expansion team but not a stacked team by any means. 

I think it was his luck that year.

 

 Last year Rangers overachieved somewhat during the season, and then we added few players at the end of the year to make the team stronger.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Rangers

[Keirik]

3 minutes ago, Rangers said:

I think it was his luck that year.

 

 Last year Rangers overachieved somewhat during the season, and then we added few players at the end of the year to make the team stronger.

Maybe. But a trip to the finals with an expansion team and game 6 of the semi finals with two different teams doesn’t really strike me as luck. The biggest issue plaguing Gallant is his year 3 as a coach. He’s fine right now. 

[Albatrosss]

Alright, we can keep him

[Sharpshooter]

I think it was some luck, but you can’t totally disregard his work overall. Vegas fans were still missing him after he was let go. Another factor was not every expansion team can get a future Hall of Fame goaltender in the draft.

[Keirik]

14 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

I think it was some luck, but you can’t totally disregard his work overall. Vegas fans were still missing him after he was let go. Another factor was not every expansion team can get a future Hall of Fame goaltender in the draft.

Cant forget, Fleury only played half the year in his first. Eggs year due to injury.  Al old Subban played 22 games that year. Gallant was doing something right lol