2021 Training Camp Thread

[shestYORKin]

Edited October 7, 2021 by shestYORKin

[siddious]

No one said anything about bailing on Miller. Sometimes playing at a lower level can help build your game back up. We always knew Miller needed some seasoning. 

[Long live the King]

8 minutes ago, shestYORKin said:

I mean, he’s learning a new system. but all the sudden suggesting that he’s clueless as a defender is ignoring the bulk of a pretty awesome rookie season in light of some shitty preseason games. 

Miller was drafted as a raw, super athletic d prospect.  He had a great start to the year, but struggled for the last 20 games or so.  Now he's struggling in the preseason.  There's nothing wrong with letting him play a few months with zero pressure in Hartford.  Is rawness and inexperience is only going to get exposed more and more as teams get more tape on him.   

Edited October 7, 2021 by Long live the King

[shestYORKin]

who’s the last all rookie team player you can remember anyone talking about sending down before their next season started? ask Miller if that would feel like people bailing on him. 

the weird part is most everyone I’ve seen suggesting this would rather Jones (who just got sent down) in his place. makes zero sense. he’s even less experienced and has far inferior physical qualities. but hey, solid preseason I guess. 

[shestYORKin]

5 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

but struggled for the last 20 games or so.  

that’s a stretch. he had like 5 or 6 bad games in the back half. nothing crazy, just a rookie going through the learning process. 

[Long live the King]

All-rookie team is a nice nod, but hardly something to put a lot of stock in.  Here's the rookie D from last year.  There's only 5 guys that played in 50 or more games.  Miller was +14 in the first 33 games and -5 in the last 20.  Feel free to look up more advanced stats.  There's no harm in sending him down with specific things to work on.  That's literally what Hartford is for.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Long live the King

[Drew a Penalty]

Michael Del Zotto was an All-Rookie Team defender.

Miller has a ton of potential, but he's taking a beating in some of the areas that are supposed to be his strong suits. Take his gap control on the rush for instance. He's boxing out incoming forwards but giving them the room to eventually beat him wide and get around him. He's far too overconfident in his reach that he's overextending himself and not actually breaking up plays because he has no leverage. He should be stripping pucks with his reach or closing in on those forwards and smothering them. He's letting players get by him to make a pass, drive to the net, or take the puck behind the net. That might've flown under Quinn but it's not a particularly helpful form of defense. It also puts Trouba, an already slow player, in a precarious position if Miller gets beat. That pairing is going to have its difficulties given how much both struggle to transition.

[shestYORKin]

Del Zotto, dang

hey if Miller slumps hard I’m sure Gallant will manage the situation. sophomore slumps are a thing. and if that means he gets some time to tweak things in Hartford then so be it. but this talk track of sending him down before the season starts in favor of Jones (or even Schneider whom I fucking love) is just silly. 

the upside here is if this is the best we’ve got for scapegoats right now we’re doing alright to say the least. 

[Tomas Sandstrom]

After this convo...I'm definitely picking Miller to score the Rangers first goal of the season!  LOL

Hopefully, unlike last season, it comes in Game 1...

[josh]

I'm one who said Miller was going to spent multiple seasons in Hartford developing. As mentioned by LLTK, he was so raw but shined in camp and earned his spot.

His season changed after the hit from Martin. 

Since then, he hasn't been able to put it together. I think he needs to go back to that simple game, focusing on defense. He seems to be over thinking and over committing, not letting his physical attributes take over, which has made him so successful. 

[The Dude]

10 hours ago, shestYORKin said:

I mean, he’s learning a new system. but all the sudden suggesting that he’s clueless as a defender is ignoring the bulk of a pretty awesome rookie season in light of some shitty preseason games. 

He tailed off big time after mid season. The guy is a raw talent that needs to be reigned in.  I was thinking he was going to regroup over the summer and come into camp to dominate pre season. He doesn't look good. 

The kid won't learn much from Reaves. Different positions. Unless you're suggesting there's some kind of connection due to the color of their skin. Miller is never going to be a fighter or an agitating type. Probably not even physical. Just not in him. He can be a shut down defender who should be able to skate with anyone. 

 

I see zero problem sending him to Hartford to gain confidence. I suggested Kakko and Lafreniere do the same, last season. 

Such moves need to be accepted and not thought of as punishment, by fans. These kids need a little more fine tuning. More icetime. When someone out plays a kid, it should be looked at as JUST THAT. You don't have to force them into a lineup. They have plenty of time to grow and learn. It's not a death sentence. 

Can't preach competition and then claim the numbers game over and over again. I'd think stuff like that makes players disgruntled and causes divide in a locker room. 

Jones had a much, much better camp and pre season than Miller.  Schneider had a better camp and pre season than Lundkvist. Why have camp at all if these jobs are handed out 4 months ago anyway? 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

4 hours ago, The Dude said:

Jones had a much, much better camp and pre season than Miller.  Schneider had a better camp and pre season than Lundkvist. Why have camp at all if these jobs are handed out 4 months ago anyway? 

You think a couple weeks and 2-3 pre season games should be more important than the last 2-3 years of development and play?

Schneider has played WHL and 2 AHL games while Lundkvist has been one of the best defenders in Sweden for a couple years now. I don't really care who looked better for 20 minutes against Devils AHL team.

Camp is for the players to get in shape and for borderline players to either take a spot or lose a spot on the team. Look at Gauthier. Everyone thought he would be gone, but now he looks to have a spot on the opening roster.

We knew this before last season ended, everyone was ready to see Lundkvist this season. But now because a couple new shiny toys had a couple good games against AHL competition we're gonna send him down? It doesn't really make sense. It's not like Lundkvist has struggled either, apart from the first game he's been really solid. Better defensively than both Jones and Schneider and he put up a few points and showed how good his shot can be.

Let Jones and Schneider be "The guys" in AHL playing 20+ minutes a night in all situations and let the guys that have played against pro's for years now (Miller and Lundkvist) play in the NHL.

[Pete]

34 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

You think a couple weeks and 2-3 pre season games should be more important than the last 2-3 years of development and play?

Schneider has played WHL and 2 AHL games while Lundkvist has been one of the best defenders in Sweden for a couple years now. I don't really care who looked better for 20 minutes against Devils AHL team.

Camp is for the players to get in shape and for borderline players to either take a spot or lose a spot on the team. Look at Gauthier. Everyone thought he would be gone, but now he looks to have a spot on the opening roster.

We knew this before last season ended, everyone was ready to see Lundkvist this season. But now because a couple new shiny toys had a couple good games against AHL competition we're gonna send him down? It doesn't really make sense. It's not like Lundkvist has struggled either, apart from the first game he's been really solid. Better defensively than both Jones and Schneider and he put up a few points and showed how good his shot can be.

Let Jones and Schneider be "The guys" in AHL playing 20+ minutes a night in all situations and let the guys that have played against pro's for years now (Miller and Lundkvist) play in the NHL.

[jsm7302]

1 hour ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

You think a couple weeks and 2-3 pre season games should be more important than the last 2-3 years of development and play?

Schneider has played WHL and 2 AHL games while Lundkvist has been one of the best defenders in Sweden for a couple years now. I don't really care who looked better for 20 minutes against Devils AHL team.

Camp is for the players to get in shape and for borderline players to either take a spot or lose a spot on the team. Look at Gauthier. Everyone thought he would be gone, but now he looks to have a spot on the opening roster.

We knew this before last season ended, everyone was ready to see Lundkvist this season. But now because a couple new shiny toys had a couple good games against AHL competition we're gonna send him down? It doesn't really make sense. It's not like Lundkvist has struggled either, apart from the first game he's been really solid. Better defensively than both Jones and Schneider and he put up a few points and showed how good his shot can be.

Let Jones and Schneider be "The guys" in AHL playing 20+ minutes a night in all situations and let the guys that have played against pro's for years now (Miller and Lundkvist) play in the NHL.

The voice of reason speaks. We only have so many spots, gotta let the development continue for all of those players and you identified the proper process for all of them to continue to move forward. Love it. This organization is in such a great position moving forward. For trades, for injuries, etc.

[Sharpshooter]

Yeah, it's sad how they lost their jobs, but Gorton and JD left this team in very good shape.

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

You think a couple weeks and 2-3 pre season games should be more important than the last 2-3 years of development and play?

Schneider has played WHL and 2 AHL games while Lundkvist has been one of the best defenders in Sweden for a couple years now. I don't really care who looked better for 20 minutes against Devils AHL team.

Camp is for the players to get in shape and for borderline players to either take a spot or lose a spot on the team. Look at Gauthier. Everyone thought he would be gone, but now he looks to have a spot on the opening roster.

We knew this before last season ended, everyone was ready to see Lundkvist this season. But now because a couple new shiny toys had a couple good games against AHL competition we're gonna send him down? It doesn't really make sense. It's not like Lundkvist has struggled either, apart from the first game he's been really solid. Better defensively than both Jones and Schneider and he put up a few points and showed how good his shot can be.

Let Jones and Schneider be "The guys" in AHL playing 20+ minutes a night in all situations and let the guys that have played against pro's for years now (Miller and Lundkvist) play in the NHL.

Well... Jones played in the NHL last season.  Looked fine. Lundkvist didn't. The SHL is a much different league. We aren't talking about a player with size who dominated both sides of the puck like Hedman here. Nevermind that that leagues top scorer this past season was former Ranger, Marek Hrivík.  So... tell me again about the SHL vs a mixed NHL pre season roster...

How are players supposed to fight for what the coach calls "open spots on the roster", when the decision is already made? Jones was rushed in here and signed. Why do that and waste a ELC year by giving him NHL minutes in a season that was meaningless? Everyone here said it was to get him experience and accustomed to the pro game... Well.. He looked pretty good. Still does. 

Look, I get that Lundkvist is considered a top tier prospect. But so are the other two I'm talking about. He didn't do very well in pre season. The AHL is not a death sentence. This type of player should adapt very quickly down there and be knocking on the door soon enough. I'd think more time developing on the smaller rink with less pressure would be better for him right now. He looked physically outmatched and didn't do much that stood out offensively.  Don't forget.  He's going to be getting 3rd pairing minutes here and 2nd PP time. He'd be playing in every situation in Hartford.  That isn't going to be the case in Ny.

I'm not saying hes not going to be good. But when the coach says players need to win jobs, but just goes with what the layed out plan was to begin with, just gets to me.  Gallant did say they knew what the roster was months ago, but did suggest that there was a spot or 2 on D that needed to be earned.  To me the 2 players I'm talking about should be atleast one of the spots in question... Which to me then leads to Miller. 

He hasn't been good.  Not since the all-star break. So, his NHL experience you speak of is kinda not a good example. He struggled and he needs work. 

Maybe the pressure of being in the top 4 is too much for him? Again. Nothing wrong with going to the AHL.

In your opinion,  WHEN IS a good time to send a prospect down to the minors? These guys skipped the development process that most players have to go through. A guy like Miller especially.  That luster of his potential VS the competition to join the roster in camp last season, is a bit different than the competition of now. Last year he had to beat Hajek  (whom may have been injured) and Bitetto.  The competition is a bit better and a bit more integral to the teams future this season.

To me, RIGHT NOW (this can change), Jones fits better with Trouba. Almost anyone would.  They've looked bad since last season and I think both would benefit from a split. Problem is, you can't put Miller with Lundkvist.. Well,  you could... But it seems like they won't. Signing Nemeth to a decent contract kind prohibits that. Really locks him into a job here. Can he be pushed up to top 4 minutes? I honestly know nothing about the guy. Didn't understand why people were so happy about the signing.

I'll ask again, because it's really something that bothers me in discussions like this.  WHEN do people think it's an appropriate time to send down a prospect that has struggled after already skipping said process?  

 

 

 

[Cash or Czech]

K'Andre Miller also made the team almost out of necessity last season. If he didn't, Jack Johnson was going to be playing way more minutes, as would Hajek. He was good enough and showed a lot of promise early. His quality definitely dropped off as the season went on. It was a grueling season like none we've ever seen before, but the fact remains he looked more like a 6/7 than a 4th defenseman by the end at best.

We have the ability to send him down and let him develop, or change things up with the pairings. "If it ain't broke" only works if it ain't broke for the entire team. While Lindgren and Fox work great together, IMO Fox would work with any defenseman and Lindgren could make up for Trouba's shakiness. Swapping them so K'Andre plays with Fox to see if that sparks better overall performance for the team might be an interesting way forward. Just my $.02.

[LindG1000]

8 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Well... Jones played in the NHL last season.  Looked fine. Lundkvist didn't. The SHL is a much different league. We aren't talking about a player with size who dominated both sides of the puck like Hedman here. Nevermind that that leagues top scorer this past season was former Ranger, Marek Hrivík.  So... tell me again about the SHL vs a mixed NHL pre season roster...

How are players supposed to fight for what the coach calls "open spots on the roster", when the decision is already made? Jones was rushed in here and signed. Why do that and waste a ELC year by giving him NHL minutes in a season that was meaningless? Everyone here said it was to get him experience and accustomed to the pro game... Well.. He looked pretty good. Still does. 

Look, I get that Lundkvist is considered a top tier prospect. But so are the other two I'm talking about. He didn't do very well in pre season. The AHL is not a death sentence. This type of player should adapt very quickly down there and be knocking on the door soon enough. I'd think more time developing on the smaller rink with less pressure would be better for him right now. He looked physically outmatched and didn't do much that stood out offensively.  Don't forget.  He's going to be getting 3rd pairing minutes here and 2nd PP time. He'd be playing in every situation in Hartford.  That isn't going to be the case in Ny.

I'm not saying hes not going to be good. But when the coach says players need to win jobs, but just goes with what the layed out plan was to begin with, just gets to me.  Gallant did say they knew what the roster was months ago, but did suggest that there was a spot or 2 on D that needed to be earned.  To me the 2 players I'm talking about should be atleast one of the spots in question... Which to me then leads to Miller. 

He hasn't been good.  Not since the all-star break. So, his NHL experience you speak of is kinda not a good example. He struggled and he needs work. 

Maybe the pressure of being in the top 4 is too much for him? Again. Nothing wrong with going to the AHL.

In your opinion,  WHEN IS a good time to send a prospect down to the minors? These guys skipped the development process that most players have to go through. A guy like Miller especially.  That luster of his potential VS the competition to join the roster in camp last season, is a bit different than the competition of now. Last year he had to beat Hajek  (whom may have been injured) and Bitetto.  The competition is a bit better and a bit more integral to the teams future this season.

To me, RIGHT NOW (this can change), Jones fits better with Trouba. Almost anyone would.  They've looked bad since last season and I think both would benefit from a split. Problem is, you can't put Miller with Lundkvist.. Well,  you could... But it seems like they won't. Signing Nemeth to a decent contract kind prohibits that. Really locks him into a job here. Can he be pushed up to top 4 minutes? I honestly know nothing about the guy. Didn't understand why people were so happy about the signing.

I'll ask again, because it's really something that bothers me in discussions like this.  WHEN do people think it's an appropriate time to send down a prospect that has struggled after already skipping said process?  

 

 

 

Can you explain how Lundkvist didn't do well in the preseason? I'm not understanding how - if I recall properly since stats are hard to find - four assists and not on the ice for a single even strength goal against (and none against in that atrocious Devils game), strong puck possession numbers?

 

Like, were we watching the same thing?

[shestYORKin]

6 hours ago, The Dude said:

The kid won't learn much from Reaves. Different positions. Unless you're suggesting there's some kind of connection due to the color of their skin. Miller is never going to be a fighter or an agitating type. Probably not even physical. Just not in him. 

there’s so much bad take here that we’ll just have to see how well it ages. 

Miller’s already shown more amp, like the 2nd or 3rd game when Shesty got snowed and he immediately engaged—with Reaves at his side. 

last year was a total shitshow. hardly gonna blame a rookie for struggling some through a million distractions. and now a whole new coaching staff and system to adjust to. this is absolutely what it means to “be a pro” and not something that we need to hide him from.

and anyway, as far as his play, with all this dissecting it should be obvious that our AHL pair have also outplayed Trouba this preseason. and instead of overreacting he’s being sized up for captain. it’s almost like there’s a big picture here that’s kind of important. 

classic disconnect in perspective between fandom and inside the team. 

[Albatrosss]

1 hour ago, G1000 said:

Can you explain how Lundkvist didn't do well in the preseason? I'm not understanding how - if I recall properly since stats are hard to find - four assists and not on the ice for a single even strength goal against (and none against in that atrocious Devils game), strong puck possession numbers?

 

Like, were we watching the same thing?

he made a bad short pass in the defensive zone which became a turnover and the devils scored in the last game vs the devils.  So he was on the ice for at least one goal against. 

just sayin'

[Sod16]

I only saw 2-3 minutes of the last game.  Enough to see Miller look ineffectual on a Devils' goal.

[The Dude]

4 hours ago, G1000 said:

Can you explain how Lundkvist didn't do well in the preseason? I'm not understanding how - if I recall properly since stats are hard to find - four assists and not on the ice for a single even strength goal against (and none against in that atrocious Devils game), strong puck possession numbers?

 

Like, were we watching the same thing?

I guess we were. He was soft, easy to knock off the puck, had exactly ONE HIT this preseason.  3 assists not 4,  - 1 against the devils in a 7-2 win, in which he had zero points. He looks even smaller than his bio suggests. Skating doesn't look all that special. Not especially comfortable looking carrying the puck. Good at getting his shot off, but that's all I get from his game so far. Doesn't see the ice as good as Fox or DeAngelo did.

 

I don't really see a world where the Rangers even need him Asa RH Dman. He's not taking Fox's job. Doubt he pushes Trouba. Can he contribute from the 3rd pair and 2nd PP unit? Will he want to be behind everyone for very long? I think they need to develop Jones and Miller,  so they can deal Lundkvist for max return.  Likely for a center.  It's either Schneider or Lundkvist. Right now the team needs a Schneider moving forward. 

[siddious]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

I guess we were. He was soft, easy to knock off the puck, had exactly ONE HIT this preseason.  3 assists not 4,  - 1 against the devils in a 7-2 win, in which he had zero points. He looks even smaller than his bio suggests. Skating doesn't look all that special. Not especially comfortable looking carrying the puck. Good at getting his shot off, but that's all I get from his game so far. Doesn't see the ice as good as Fox or DeAngelo did.

 

I don't really see a world where the Rangers even need him Asa RH Dman. He's not taking Fox's job. Doubt he pushes Trouba. Can he contribute from the 3rd pair and 2nd PP unit? Will he want to be behind everyone for very long? I think they need to develop Jones and Miller,  so they can deal Lundkvist for max return.  Likely for a center.  It's either Schneider or Lundkvist. Right now the team needs a Schneider moving forward. 

By all accounts he is the Rangers top prospect. You saw him in 3 pre-season games. I think you are rushing to judgement here a bit. Let him get comfortable, he might not have lit it up but he didnt look out of place either. I think it would be irresponsible not to give him your top prospect a chance. 

I will grant you that he looks tiny. 

[Long live the King]

 

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

Kreider skating with 4th liners?