Report Rangers Interested in Eichel?

[josh]

I'm at the point where I really think we're better served starting to ask about Hertl, Dvorak, William Karlsson - a few guys a tier or two down from Eichel that make more sense and aren't in a huge game of dickchicken. If we're going to make a move like this, Eichel isn't the only game in town and it's high time Drury reminds Adams that's the case.

 

But those guys are what we already have. You listed different versions of Chytil, Zibanejad and Strome. That's not changing the homo-ness of the team.

[Long live the King]

I'm at the point where I really think we're better served starting to ask about Hertl, Dvorak, William Karlsson - a few guys a tier or two down from Eichel that make more sense and aren't in a huge game of dickchicken. If we're going to make a move like this, Eichel isn't the only game in town and it's high time Drury reminds Adams that's the case.

 

If we're in the playoffs keep Strome as a rental, if not trade him at the deadline.

 

Philly is gonna suck again. Sign Giroux or Couturier next summer.

[josh]

Probably better off staying away from any contract, or anyone due for a contract, until they see how this team plays. They made a lot of changes. Let's see how the cards fall before any more bets.

[Ozzy]

Probably better off staying away from any contract, or anyone due for a contract, until they see how this team plays. They made a lot of changes. Let's see how the cards fall before any more bets.

 

I'm on board with this, Josh. Let's see what we have and how these kids go this year before we go tearing into what we've built so far.

 

We may just already have what we need....patience with some development may pay the biggest dividends yet.

[Patrick Bateman]

The Sabres organization is in absolute shambles. The Pegulas might be the spawn of Satan if you are a Buffalo sports fan.

 

THey have mismanaged the Eichel scenario from day 1. Adams is at the point where he needs to decide if saving face is more important than getting the best deal possible before camp. Ego and pride can be a real bitch.

 

Now they're threatening to move the Bills to Austin, lol

[Gravesy]

Given that he's still symptomatic, per the doctor he wishes to perform the surgery, who, as a result, would suggest Eichel get the surgery.

 

You should also listen to the podcast interview with the doctor. It's extremely informative and straight from the mouth of a medical professional — not beat writers, journalists, or front office members with axes to grind.

 

I did listen to it. It’s informative, I guess, but it’s also given by the surgeon who’s

a) part of Eichel’s team and

b) the surgeon who is going to perform the actual surgery on him

 

It’s hardly surprising he’s talking up his preferred method and it’s also blatantly obvious it’s a part of the “free Eichel campaign”. Let’s not pretend he doesn’t have an agenda here. Now, I’m not saying he’s wrong. I’m not an expert. But literally every surgeon who works with NHL and NFL teams on herniated discs would presumably tell you that he is, and explain why a fusion or conservative rehab is better with an equal amount of conviction. I don’t really buy into the idea that they’re all antiquated old fools opposed to medical advancement and living in the past. That seems pretty unlikely, given that professional sports teams rarely get their medical advice from dollar shop type establishments.

 

So yeah, I still think this situation is pretty muddled and difficult to fully grasp. It would be really interesting to hear a surgeon on the other side of the argument. More than anything I’d like to understand what the Sabres plan is, because that’s even more of a mind bender than the surgery part.

[BlairBettsBlocksEverything]

I did listen to it. It’s informative, I guess, but it’s also given by the surgeon who’s

a) part of Eichel’s team and

b) the surgeon who is going to perform the actual surgery on him

 

It’s hardly surprising he’s talking up his preferred method and it’s also blatantly obvious it’s a part of the “free Eichel campaign”. Let’s not pretend he doesn’t have an agenda here. Now, I’m not saying he’s wrong. I’m not an expert. But literally every surgeon who works with NHL and NFL teams on herniated discs would presumably tell you that he is, and explain why a fusion or conservative rehab is better with an equal amount of conviction. I don’t really buy into the idea that they’re all antiquated old fools opposed to medical advancement and living in the past. That seems pretty unlikely, given that professional sports teams rarely get their medical advice from dollar shop type establishments.

 

So yeah, I still think this situation is pretty muddled and difficult to fully grasp. It would be really interesting to hear a surgeon on the other side of the argument. More than anything I’d like to understand what the Sabres plan is, because that’s even more of a mind bender than the surgery part.

 

of course there is an agenda there. I don't think anyone assumes that sportsnet just happened to get that interview. It's clear that this was part of Eichel's camp's PR strategy.

 

With that said though, this isn't some random doctor, without any backing from the medical community, promoting an unknown procedure. Just because he looks to benefit from performing this surgery doesn't mean he isn't right

[Gravesy]

of course there is an agenda there. I don't think anyone assumes that sportsnet just happened to get that interview. It's clear that this was part of Eichel's camp's PR strategy.

 

With that said though, this isn't some random doctor, without any backing from the medical community, promoting an unknown procedure. Just because he looks to benefit from performing this surgery doesn't mean he isn't right

No, but the fact he is contradicted by every surgeon who has dealt with herniated discs with NFL and NHL players certainly suggests there are two sides to this story.

I mean, according to him, this is a procedure that

- has been around since 2000

- significantly reduces down time

- significantly reduces the risk of needing a 2nd surgery

 

That sounds like a fucking no brainer. And if it was such a no brainer, it seems incredible that not one NFL or NHL team have chosen this route over the last 20+ years. It seems wise to assume there’s another side of this argument.

 

Again, I’m not saying he’s wrong. I’m in advertising ffs, I have no knowledge on the topic. But the fact he’s seemingly alone on this hill makes me at least dubious that it’s as straight forward as he lays it out, and it seems like it’s a thinly veiled attempt at smearing the Sabres. Which is totally unnecessary, given they’re perfectly capable of doing that themselves.

[josh]

It's a commercial.

[Pete]

I did listen to it. It’s informative, I guess, but it’s also given by the surgeon who’s

a) part of Eichel’s team and

b) the surgeon who is going to perform the actual surgery on him

 

It’s hardly surprising he’s talking up his preferred method and it’s also blatantly obvious it’s a part of the “free Eichel campaign”. Let’s not pretend he doesn’t have an agenda here. Now, I’m not saying he’s wrong. I’m not an expert. But literally every surgeon who works with NHL and NFL teams on herniated discs would presumably tell you that he is, and explain why a fusion or conservative rehab is better with an equal amount of conviction. I don’t really buy into the idea that they’re all antiquated old fools opposed to medical advancement and living in the past. That seems pretty unlikely, given that professional sports teams rarely get their medical advice from dollar shop type establishments.

 

So yeah, I still think this situation is pretty muddled and difficult to fully grasp. It would be really interesting to hear a surgeon on the other side of the argument. More than anything I’d like to understand what the Sabres plan is, because that’s even more of a mind bender than the surgery part.

 

The nuance here is that it's not the surgery that's on trial. The surgeon even said, if Eichel wanted fusion, he'd perform that procedure. What's on trial is why the Sabres get to make that choice and not Eichel. The doctor is simply stating the obvious, the team isn't looking out for what Eichel's life is going to be like in 10, 20 years (and we already know this to be true in sports). His point is that this procedure is better for Eichel the person, and his long-term health, and Buffalo is really only worried about his health for the life of the contract.

[Phil]

The nuance here is that it's not the surgery that's on trial. The surgeon even said, if Eichel wanted fusion, he'd perform that procedure. What's on trial is why the Sabres get to make that choice and not Eichel. The doctor is simply stating the obvious, the team isn't looking out for what Eichel's life is going to be like in 10, 20 years (and we already know this to be true in sports). His point is that this procedure is better for Eichel the person, and his long-term health, and Buffalo is really only worried about his health for the life of the contract.

 

Correct. Especially given the risk of the need for additional fusions every ten years, which occurs in, I believe he said 25% of cases. That may not seem like a lot, but it's a significant number when you're talking about neck surgery.

[Pete]

Correct. Especially given the risk of the need for additional fusions every ten years, which occurs in, I believe he said 25% of cases. That may not seem like a lot, but it's a significant number when you're talking about neck surgery.

 

25%, and exponential. So one fusion gets you another herniation, and then another fusion, and then 25% chance of needing another fusion.

 

My main takeaway is "this has never been done to an NHL player is a BS excuse to use while the Sabres look to offload him and make the surgery and post-surgery concerns someone else's problem.

[Gravesy]

The nuance here is that it's not the surgery that's on trial. The surgeon even said, if Eichel wanted fusion, he'd perform that procedure. What's on trial is why the Sabres get to make that choice and not Eichel. The doctor is simply stating the obvious, the team isn't looking out for what Eichel's life is going to be like in 10, 20 years (and we already know this to be true in sports). His point is that this procedure is better for Eichel the person, and his long-term health, and Buffalo is really only worried about his health for the life of the contract.

 

It isn’t?

The premise of the interview is that Eichel and his camp prefers disc replacement whereas the Sabres want a fusion. The entire interview is the doctor arguing for his method.

The fact Eichel doesn’t get to decide is regulated by the CBA, I can’t see how that’s on trial unless this is about changing the writing, which doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

Again, I find it a bit strange to buy every word this guy says at face value when you know there’s a significant agenda here. And, again, if it’s that black and white it seems improbable that nobody else connected to pro football and hockey have gone this route.

It’s obviously possible he’s correct. But I can’t help but think this is exactly the reaction they were going for.

[Phil]

You don't have to take him at his word, but his word is valid, even if he has an agenda (to push the Sabres to accept disc replacement).

 

The case he laid out seemed pretty logical to me, and I've got no dog in this race. I don't care which route Eichel opts for. It's his health. But if it were me, I'd almost certainly be getting the disc replacement, not fusion, simply because of the risk that fusion brings for exponential additional fusion surgeries it can require. That's the kind of compound risk assessment I'm not willing to go for, so I can entirely understand why Eichel wouldn't want to, either. It's also clear that, given he's still symptomatic, rest is not working.

[josh]

If Eichel cared about the surgery, he could have taken the team to arbitration under the NHL rules, or even the NYS Workers Compensation injury laws.

[Gravesy]

It seems perfectly logical. And really straight forward.

Which begs the question why it’s not more common. How many herniated discs in the NFL since 2000? I would love to hear what all these medical teams and surgeons who advise fusion has to say.

[Pete]

It isn’t?

The premise of the interview is that Eichel and his camp prefers disc replacement whereas the Sabres want a fusion. The entire interview is the doctor arguing for his method.

The fact Eichel doesn’t get to decide is regulated by the CBA, I can’t see how that’s on trial unless this is about changing the writing, which doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

Again, I find it a bit strange to buy every word this guy says at face value when you know there’s a significant agenda here. And, again, if it’s that black and white it seems improbable that nobody else connected to pro football and hockey have gone this route.

It’s obviously possible he’s correct. But I can’t help but think this is exactly the reaction they were going for.

 

I didn't listen to the end of the podcast, but I listened to the entire interview with the doctor. His entire closing comment was around Eichel being able to decide his medical care as it relates to the rest of his life, and that's a basic human right.

 

Understood and agreed on the CBA stuff, but it wouldn't be the first nugget of the CBA that needs to be re-looked at because the advantage is heavily to the team. Put it this way, I'd re-look at this CBA item before LTIR.

[BrooksBurner]

It seems perfectly logical. And really straight forward.

Which begs the question why it’s not more common. How many herniated discs in the NFL since 2000? I would love to hear what all these medical teams and surgeons who advise fusion has to say.

 

IIRC the surgeon in the interview made a mention he wasn't as keen on disc replacement for NFL players because of the type of contact, which is lowering the head and driving into players. He talked about how hockey physicality was more the head whipping back and forth or side to side, rather than a downward motion from the top of the head.

[Long live the King]

I didn't listen to the end of the podcast, but I listened to the entire interview with the doctor. His entire closing comment was around Eichel being able to decide his medical care as it relates to the rest of his life, and that's a basic human right.

 

Understood and agreed on the CBA stuff, but it wouldn't be the first nugget of the CBA that needs to be re-looked at because the advantage is heavily to the team. Put it this way, I'd re-look at this CBA item before LTIR.

 

Eichel can decide his own medical care, however if his decision goes against the team doctor's advice then the team doesn't have to pay him the $50 million dollars remaining on his contract and the team should still own his rights until he would have been a UFA.

[Gravesy]

IIRC the surgeon in the interview made a mention he wasn't as keen on disc replacement for NFL players because of the type of contact, which is lowering the head and driving into players. He talked about how hockey physicality was more the head whipping back and forth or side to side, rather than a downward motion from the top of the head.

 

I heard that and thought it was a pretty weak explanation. Sure, if you’re a 300 pound nose tackle. Definitely not the case for wide receivers, cornerbacks, safeties etc. Also, not “him” but “they” iirc.

[Pete]

Eichel can decide his own medical care, however if his decision goes against the team doctor's advice then the team doesn't have to pay him the $50 million dollars remaining on his contract and the team should still own his rights until he would have been a UFA.

 

Is that what's in the CBA?

[Pete]

I heard that and thought it was a pretty weak explanation. Sure, if you’re a 300 pound nose tackle. Definitely not the case for wide receivers, cornerbacks, safeties etc. Also, not “him” but “they” iirc.

 

Do you feel that "never been don on an NHL player" is a weak excuse? When it's been performed on hockey players in other leagues?

[Gravesy]

I didn't listen to the end of the podcast, but I listened to the entire interview with the doctor. His entire closing comment was around Eichel being able to decide his medical care as it relates to the rest of his life, and that's a basic human right.

 

Understood and agreed on the CBA stuff, but it wouldn't be the first nugget of the CBA that needs to be re-looked at because the advantage is heavily to the team. Put it this way, I'd re-look at this CBA item before LTIR.

 

Yeah, before the interview starts Friedman lays the table. He explains that the situation is the Sabres wants a fusion, Eichel and his people wants disc replacement.

Look, I don’t necessarily disagree re the CBA but he knew that when he signed a contract regulated by that document.

[Pete]

Yeah, before the interview starts Friedman lays the table. He explains that the situation is the Sabres wants a fusion, Eichel and his people wants disc replacement.

Look, I don’t necessarily disagree re the CBA but he knew that when he signed a contract regulated by that document.

 

True. I don't think anyone considers not being able to have a career-threatening injury given the best possible care when they sign though haha.

 

The thing I keep coming back to is that I haven't heard from Buffalo a good reason for fusion. Their reasoning amounts to "No NHL player has had it"...OK, players in other leagues and sport have had it...

[Gravesy]

Do you feel that "never been don on an NHL player" is a weak excuse? When it's been performed on hockey players in other leagues?

Yes, at face value, but I’d like to know why that is before I have on opinion on it. Seems strange if it’s “for no particular reason” given this alternative has been around for 20 years. And he doesn’t exactly provide a full dossier when Friedman asks him to provide details on who and in which leagues. “Uhhh some high school players, collegiate level”.

 

Look I’m not trying to say this guy is a snake oil peddling quack, but there are some pretty significant questions imo.