J.T. Miller: Requiem for a Captain Who Never Was

[Puck Head]

Yea, I'm not sure how anyone can say he wasn't working here, or didn't work out. Good players get traded all the time.

 

It's a classic case of if people didn't like the player, they never will. What's comical to me are the people who rag Miller praise Kreider, and Miller is already a more complete player than Krieder is.

 

Miller is not a more complete player (thiscoming from someone who likes miller).

 

And kind of hypocritical for you to say that the way you?ve ridden Kreider this whole time yet prosper Miller.

 

Since trade they each has the exact amount of points, and i think we can agree Kreider doesn?t have near the talent around him

 

 

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[Pete]

I mean, JT Miller has never scored more than 25 goals at any level, any time, anywhere, but sure let's pencil him in for 40 goals and 90 points next year. Seems pretty smart.

 

 

I am pretty sick of Namestnikov already, though tbh and if it was a one for one deal on Miller, that's was really dumb.

 

But who cares? Who said 40 goals and 90 points? That's what I love about the sensationalism. Let's just make stuff up, rather than focus on the fact that he was a P/G player in the OHL, and the last 2 seasons in the AHL...Or the fact that 30 goals isn't entirely out of the question...Before it's all said and done I would not be surprised at all if he had a few 30g/70pt campaigns before crashing down to earth because he plays a hard game. Similar to Mike Richards.

[Long live the King]

guy scores 22 goals each of the last three years puts up 50+ plus points each of those seasons and yet he’s only producing because of his line mates now? All before he’s 25.

 

If the rangers put into a memo the exact type of young player they are hoping to rebuild around it would to a tee describe miller. Oh wait they did that. Miller has plenty of holes in his game anybody who disagrees with that is not honest. But who doesn’t? He won’t be a superstar but he’s going to be a fixure on a nhl top 6. He’s already been that on good ranger teams and now on a good tampa team.

 

Even with lesser talent he put up mid 50 point totals and 20 plus goals HERE. That’s the worst you expect from him. His best years are ahead of him. His floor was already pretty good his ceiling is what 30/80?

 

Namestnikov is a fine player he’s just not close to miller. His career numbers and play tell any honest person that. If miller was a huge problem locker room wise then fine. That can be the only logical reason. To argue the two players is not reasonable and their production says that

 

Their career numbers from their draft up to the trade are actually very similar, though Names battled a sophomore slump...

 

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]

[tr]

[td][/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Miller[/td]

[td]Names[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2011-2012[/td]

[td]OHL[/td]

[td]61: 25+37=62[/td]

[td]63: 22+49=71[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2012-2013[/td]

[td]AHL[/td]

[td]42: 8+15=23[/td]

[td]44: 7+14=21[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td][/td]

[td]NHL[/td]

[td]26: 2+2=4[/td]

[td]0[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2013-2014[/td]

[td]AHL[/td]

[td]41: 15+27=42[/td]

[td]56: 19+29=48[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td][/td]

[td]NHL[/td]

[td]30: 3+3=6[/td]

[td]4: 0+0=0[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2014-2015[/td]

[td]AHL[/td]

[td]18: 6+9=15[/td]

[td]34: 14+21=35[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td][/td]

[td]NHL[/td]

[td]58: 10+13=23[/td]

[td]43: 9+7=16[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2015-2016[/td]

[td]NHL[/td]

[td]82: 22+21=43[/td]

[td]80: 14+21=35[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2016-2017[/td]

[td]NHL[/td]

[td]82: 22+34=56[/td]

[td]74: 10+18=28[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2017-2018[/td]

[td]NHL[/td]

[td]63: 13+27=40[/td]

[td]66: 20+24=44[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

[NYRangers723]

Miller is not a more complete player (thiscoming from someone who likes miller).

 

And kind of hypocritical for you to say that the way you’ve ridden Kreider this whole time yet prosper Miller.

 

Since trade they each has the exact amount of points, and i think we can agree Kreider doesn’t have near the talent around him

 

 

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Fair Point. Also coming back from a blood clot and still producing is pretty decent lol

[Long live the King]

But who cares? Who said 40 goals and 90 points? That's what I love about the sensationalism. Let's just make stuff up, rather than focus on the fact that he was a P/G player in the OHL, and the last 2 seasons in the AHL...Or the fact that 30 goals isn't entirely out of the question...Before it's all said and done I would not be surprised at all if he had a few 30g/70pt campaigns before crashing down to earth because he plays a hard game. Similar to Mike Richards.

 

See the above chart. Again all those things apply to Names...

[Long live the King]

I'm not sure why you keep making excuses for Names when Spooner was in the exact same position and came here on fire, even if he's recently cooled off.

 

I'm not making excuses for him. That's just the way it is. Names was playing on Tampa's top line, top PP, and averaging the 4th most even strength TOI among their forwards. Safe to say he feel he was a key part of the team and their success. Spooner was a 4th liner that also got decent PP time. The trade had a negative impact on Names' play. Names most likely took the trade really hard. Spooner came here with something to prove. Again these 20 post-deadline games don't mean all that much. They'll all have a summer to process it and we'll see what happens next year.

[Pete]

Miller is not a more complete player (thiscoming from someone who likes miller).

 

And kind of hypocritical for you to say that the way you’ve ridden Kreider this whole time yet prosper Miller.

 

Since trade they each has the exact amount of points, and i think we can agree Kreider doesn’t have near the talent around him

 

 

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Miller is def more well rounded than Krieder and it's not even close, IMO.

 

One player is playing to his potential and the other isn't. That's why I ride Kreider.

 

Stamkos and Zib have the same amount of points in March. File that under "who cares", same as "who cares than Miller and Kreider have the same amount of points."

[Pete]

I'm not making excuses for him. That's just the way it is. Names was playing on Tampa's top line, top PP, and averaging the 4th most even strength TOI among their forwards. Safe to say he feel he was a key part of the team and their success. Spooner was a 4th liner that also got decent PP time. The trade had a negative impact on Names' play. Names most likely took the trade really hard. Spooner came here with something to prove. Again these 20 post-deadline games don't mean all that much. They'll all have a summer to process it and we'll see what happens next year.

 

Whether or not the mean much doesn't matter. It's all we have to talk about right now. Should we just not talk about anything until next year? I mean you don't have to if you don't want to. Makes for a boring summer.

[Pete]

See the above chart. Again all those things apply to Names...

 

No they don't LOL. Miller has outscored Names in the NHL and Names wasn't even close until he was playing with Stamkos and Kooch.

 

Also, Spooner wasn't a 4th liner getting 15 mins a game. He went from a first place team to a dog, same as Names. This is just excuses. He could have come here with everything to proove that Spooner did, plus he's playing for a contract...And he's shown squat. That's not a good look.

 

I'm not buying that it was a Miller for Names trade, but if it was, agree with Dunny...It was a stupid one.

[Long live the King]

Whether or not the mean much doesn't matter. It's all we have to talk about right now. Should we just not talk about anything until next year? I mean you don't have to if you don't want to. Makes for a boring summer.

 

Uhhhh, we are talking about it. Brassard had 11 points in 13 games after he got traded here. Then followed it up with 12 points in 12 playoff games. He was also 25 at the time. Look at the contract Smith earn after his post-deadline performance last year. All I'm saying is these post-deadline stats need to be taken with a grain of salt, and it's way premature to grade the trade.

[Puck Head]

Miller is def more well rounded than Krieder and it's not even close, IMO.

 

One player is playing to his potential and the other isn't. That's why I ride Kreider.

 

Stamkos and Zib have the same amount of points in March. File that under "who cares", same as "who cares than Miller and Kreider have the same amount of points."

 

Not even close....this is where you lose me.

And yes, Zib, Fast, are equal to Stamkos and Kuch.

 

Good point

 

 

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[Pete]

Uhhhh, we are talking about it. Brassard had 11 points in 13 games after he got traded here. Then followed it up with 12 points in 12 playoff games. He was also 25 at the time. Look at the contract Smith earn after his post-deadline performance last year. All I'm saying is these post-deadline stats need to be taken with a grain of salt, and it's way premature to grade the trade.

 

No one is grading the trade. We're comparing the performance of the players post trade. One is playing well, the other is not.

 

You want to point to linemates, but Miller is doing more than Names was with Names old linemates. Names is doing less with Miller's old teammates and played himself to the 4th line. Those things cannot be disputed.

 

Now, you can look for reasons why, but all the reasons you're giving for Names sucking can be applied to Spooner who came here and went on a tear. So maybe Names lacks intangibles. Who knows. Either way, he's not doing much to earn himself a spot even on this piss-poor team.

[Pete]

Not even close....this is where you lose me.

And yes, Zib, Fast, are equal to Stamkos and Kuch.

 

Good point

 

 

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This is where you lose me, because that's not what I said. Good try.

[Long live the King]

No they don't LOL. Miller has outscored Names in the NHL and Names wasn't even close until he was playing with Stamkos and Kooch.

 

Also, Spooner wasn't a 4th liner getting 15 mins a game. He went from a first place team to a dog, same as Names. This is just excuses. He could have come here with everything to proove that Spooner did, plus he's playing for a contract...And he's shown squat. That's not a good look.

I'm not buying that it was a Miller for Names trade, but if it was, agree with Dunny...It was a stupid one.

 

Spooner was 10th in even-strength TOI among Boston's forwards. He was also 10th in shifts/game. He only came close to 15 mins because he got PP time. And I'm not saying it is a good look for Names. It's not an excuse, it's just what's happening. Hopefully he'll get over it during the off-season.

[Pete]

Spooner was 10th in even-strength TOI among Boston's forwards. He was also 10th in shifts/game. He only came close to 15 mins because he got PP time. And I'm not saying it is a good look for Names. It's not an excuse, it's just what's happening. Hopefully he'll get over it during the off-season.

 

That doesn't make him a 4th liner. It just means he didn't PK. His most frequent linemates were Krejci and Debrusk.

[Puck Head]

This is where you lose me, because that's not what I said. Good try.

 

You?ve mentioned many times how great miller is because of his performance since leaving the Rangers.

 

Offensively Kreider has matched him on a much lesser team.

 

But do tell what aspects make Miller. More complete player.

Physical ?

Defensive awareness ?

Character ?

Turnovers ?

 

Just list them out

 

 

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[Pete]

You’ve mentioned many times how great miller is because of his performance since leaving the Rangers.

 

Offensively Kreider has matched him on a much lesser team.

 

But do tell what aspects make Miller. More complete player.

Physical ?

Defensive awareness ?

Character ?

Turnovers ?

 

Just list them out

 

 

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I haven't called Miller a "great" player even one time.

[Long live the King]

No one is grading the trade. We're comparing the performance of the players post trade. One is playing well, the other is not.

 

You want to point to linemates, but Miller is doing more than Names was with Names old linemates. Names is doing less with Miller's old teammates and played himself to the 4th line. Those things cannot be disputed.

 

Now, you can look for reasons why, but all the reasons you're giving for Names sucking can be applied to Spooner who came here and went on a tear. So maybe Names lacks intangibles. Who knows. Either way, he's not doing much to earn himself a spot even on this piss-poor team.

 

Yes one is playing well one is not. But these 20 games don't define either's career to date or their future. If there is ever a time to use the phrase in a vacuum, it for post-deadline performance. I just don't see the point to keep harping on JT's stats with Tampa and ragging on Names.

[Pete]

Yes one is playing well one is not. But these 20 games don't define either's career to date or their future. If there is ever a time to use the phrase in a vacuum, it for post-deadline performance. I just don't see the point to keep harping on JT's stats with Tampa and ragging on Names.

 

The only thing Names is doing is making himself cheap on his next deal, wherever that may be.

 

I'm not sure how you can say post-deadline deals are "in a vacuum". There are plenty of players who get dealt at the deadline and kill it, and then keep killing it. Probably just as many as those who light it up and then fall flat the next season.

 

But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Long live the King]

The only thing Names is doing is making himself cheap on his next deal, wherever that may be.

 

I'm not sure how you can say post-deadline deals are "in a vacuum". There are plenty of players who get dealt at the deadline and kill it, and then keep killing it. Probably just as many as those who light it up and then fall flat the next season.

 

But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

Because there is no other way to replicate the emotional aspect of being traded form loser to winner and vice versa at the deadline, and those emotions will not be there at the start of next season, A. And 2, who are some of these plenty of players?

[The Dude]

Names is definitely playing himself out of NY. I wonder what they can get for him in trade as a RFA. Wish they flipped him at the deadline, but I guess it was a last minute decision.

 

I think Miller has less pressure on him to be perfect or that all around perfect player that AV demands from his top 9. I think he has a longer leash and is obviously playing with elite talent. Everything is being done to let him succeed, by letting him play his game, instead of trying to force him into a role that he isn't going to accel at. Hes an offensively gifted guy who does his best work when he uses his speed to generate offense.

 

I don't think of him as a two way forward, and thats what was demanded of him here. It seems the defensive side comes before the offense here. Cant take chances, cant make mistakes. Tampas offense has always been high paced and has always generated lots of shots. Lesser/more average players like Tyler Johnson who play small, are allowed free reign with Tampa, and he generates a decent amount of offense.

 

JT is getting to do what he should have been allowed to do, which is playing his game on an offense first minded team. Thats how I see it anyway. Good for him. Bad for AV.

[Pete]

Because there is no other way to replicate the emotional aspect of being traded form loser to winner and vice versa at the deadline, and those emotions will not be there at the start of next season, A. And 2, who are some of these plenty of players?

 

Honestly I don't even know what you're arguing anymore, so I'm going to bow out.

[Long live the King]

Sure, I guess that's easier than finding examples to back up your statement.

[Pete]

Sure, I guess that's easier than finding examples to back up your statement.

 

I think if you're saying that players are never successful the season after being traded at the deadline, that's not even something that deserves a response...But I have no idea id that's what you're saying, because I don't understand what you're debating anymore. So I'm not wasting my time.

[Long live the King]

I'm saying lots of guys have great numbers following deadline trades, and then return to their average numbers the following year. I'm not saying it was a good or bad trade. I'm not saying one player is better than the other (JT v. Names). All I'm saying is this handful of games doesn't really tell us anything about either player, and there are a million different variables that have on impact on players traded at the deadline.