Pete Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I'm saying lots of guys have great numbers following deadline trades, and then return to their average numbers the following year. I'm not saying it was a good or bad trade. I'm not saying one player is better than the other (JT v. Names). All I'm saying is this handful of games doesn't really tell us anything about either player, and there are a million different variables that have on impact on players traded at the deadline. OK, and I don't think I've disagreed with any of that...So what are are we arguing? I'm not debating that it's a small sample size, I'm just acknowledging that one player is playing better than the other. If I said to you "Wow, it's pretty sunny out today", it's like you're response would be "Who cares, it could rain tomorrow..." OK, it could. So should we just not mention the sun because the weather might be different later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I haven't been intending to say anything other than that. Maybe we're arguing for the sake of arguing because arguing is fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I'm saying lots of guys have great numbers following deadline trades, and then return to their average numbers the following year. I'm not saying it was a good or bad trade. I'm not saying one player is better than the other (JT v. Names). All I'm saying is this handful of games doesn't really tell us anything about either player, and there are a million different variables that have on impact on players traded at the deadline. With that being said Names is a RFA, with half a season worth of stats from this year and how ever many games in years past that he played with Stamkos to boost his bargaining. Do the Rangers want to pay up, when its very uncertain what he can do without elite talent? And if they don't, who does? Whats he worth to another team? A 3rd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I haven't been intending to say anything other than that. Maybe we're arguing for the sake of arguing because arguing is fun? :rofl: Maybe. :repped: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 You’ve mentioned many times how great miller is because of his performance since leaving the Rangers. Offensively Kreider has matched him on a much lesser team. But do tell what aspects make Miller. More complete player. Physical ? Defensive awareness ? Character ? Turnovers ? Just list them out Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Still waiting for this list. Miller is a rather poor defensive player. He is more naturally talented as a puck handler and a better passer. That's about all I see that he has on Kreider. Everything else Kreider is better at. Defensive awareness, physicality going to the front of the net, speed, stretching the defense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 And I’m saying that miller was the better player before the trade too. Namestnikov has never really produced squat without playing with kuch and Stamkos, miller has. Also Namestnikov maybe broken up about being traded but he’s on a contract year with everything to prove. Mainly that he’s more than a guy who benefitted from playing with elite players. Fact is he’s come to a great situation for his career here. Plenty of cap room and plenty of high quality ice time for those who raise their play. In Tampa he was never getting paid and he was never going to be a core player. Here it’s right there for him. So yes he maybe upset about being traded but this is not a proven veteran who only cares about the cup. This is a guy still trying to find his place in the nhl. After 20 games here what is he? How in the world do the rangers sign him to anything but a one year deal? Miller for all that he is and isn’t put those numbers up riding shotgun to no one. Now he’s playing with a coach who wants him and linemates that make him better not the other way around. And his production is spiking. So now the rangers may trade a first for a 23 year old who can join the core, well isn’t that miller just one year older? The whole thing makes zero sense. I have no problem with Namestnikov he should be given time. I just don’t understand how reading miller helps the rebuild. We can all hope we get a forward that puts up 20 goals and 50 points annually with our top pick and that is years from now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puck Head Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Still waiting for this list. Miller is a rather poor defensive player. He is more naturally talented as a puck handler and a better passer. That's about all I see that he has on Kreider. Everything else Kreider is better at. Defensive awareness, physicality going to the front of the net, speed, stretching the defense... JT does have much better hands for sure, along with Vision. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 JT does have much better hands for sure, along with Vision. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Without question those two traits are where he is far better. Kreider has stone hands sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Miller is a better defensive player than Kreider... there's a reason why Miller was killing penalties for this team and Kreider never has. Kreider is a one-trick pony. He's got speed. He's got size he rarely uses and a shot we rarely see. So if you're not going to utilize those tools, you might as well not have them. The reason why I say Miller is a better player than Kreider is because Kreider rarely uses the tools that he has, and Miller always does. They both make boneheaded plays, but how often do you say I wish I had seen Miller skate more, or use his size more, or use his shot more? Never. Kreider always leaves you wanting more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 The only reason I find myself saying that about Kreider is because he could be an absolute star if he ever put it all together. He can completely dominate and ruin the game when he’s at his best. Miller doesn’t have the ceiling of Kreider. I think people are always caught up in what Kreider could be and it leaves them wanting more. If you fairly say what he is, it’s a pretty good player, who at points in the season and even the playoffs can be a matchup nightmare and an unstoppable player. He’s also a guy that at points in the season is going to disappear for stretches. His talents though of size and speed is unmatched league wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Miller is a better defensive player than Kreider... there's a reason why Miller was killing penalties for this team and Kreider never has. Kreider is a one-trick pony. He's got speed. He's got size he rarely uses and a shot we rarely see. So if you're not going to utilize those tools, you might as well not have them. The reason why I say Miller is a better player than Kreider is because Kreider rarely uses the tools that he has, and Miller always does. They both make boneheaded plays, but how often do you say I wish I had seen Miller skate more, or use his size more, or use his shot more? Never. Kreider always leaves you wanting more. Purely objective that Miller is better defensively, and something I would disagree with. I've seen Miller turn the puck over countless times in his own zone and the NZ, and this kind of play was extended in the playoffs. That isn't just hearsay either...look at each player's giveaway totals and their Corsi stats/possession metrics. JT Miller's has been utterly terrible for the past 2 years. The Rangers simply didn't want to tie any kind of long term money based on his production, and I can't blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodka Drunkenski Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 I don?t think anyone is blaming them for trading him, they?re questioning the return. Again, it?s still way early to judge this trade but early on, Miller has shown more potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Purely objective that Miller is better defensively, and something I would disagree with. I've seen Miller turn the puck over countless times in his own zone and the NZ, and this kind of play was extended in the playoffs. That isn't just hearsay either...look at each player's giveaway totals and their Corsi stats/possession metrics. JT Miller's has been utterly terrible for the past 2 years. The Rangers simply didn't want to tie any kind of long term money based on his production, and I can't blame them. Yea, talk about speculation lol... Saying a player isn't good defensively because they give the puck away is silly. Why wouldn't you look at TKA or Blocks? Seems arbitrary. Anyway, there's a reason Miller would turn pucks over more. He's a creative player who carries the puck more than Kreider. If Krieder has the puck on his stick for more than 2 seconds, he's doing something wrong. FYI Grabner, Hayes and Fast have worse AS than either Krieder or Miller...Are they bad defensive players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Yea, talk about speculation lol... Saying a player isn't good defensively because they give the puck away is silly. Why wouldn't you look at TKA or Blocks? Seems arbitrary. Anyway, there's a reason Miller would turn pucks over more. He's a creative player who carries the puck more than Kreider. If Krieder has the puck on his stick for more than 2 seconds, he's doing something wrong. FYI Grabner, Hayes and Fast have worse AS than either Krieder or Miller...Are they bad defensive players? Just this season, Miller has given the puck away as much as Kreider has the past two years combined. Be objective. And yes, consistently turning the puck over in your own zone and neutral zone trying to be fancy makes you a poor overall defensive player and a rather careless player. Thought that was pretty much a given. Lucky for Miller, he won't be asked to do too much or play much defense on his new team, and we can pretend his offensive production playing with two likely hall of fame forwards would have happened here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 Just this season, Miller has given the puck away as much as Kreider has the past two years combined. Be objective. And yes, consistently turning the puck over in your own zone and neutral zone trying to be fancy makes you a poor overall defensive player and a rather careless player. Thought that was pretty much a given. Lucky for Miller, he won't be asked to do too much or play much defense on his new team, and we can pretend his offensive production playing with two likely hall of fame forwards would have happened here. I have no desire to be objective when the person I'm debating with has no desire to be, doesn't understand the difference between "defense" and "high risk play", and is only interested in hyperbole and putting words in people's mouths. G'Night, homie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted April 3, 2018 Share Posted April 3, 2018 LOUD NOISES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I have no desire to be objective when the person I'm debating with has no desire to be, doesn't understand the difference between "defense" and "high risk play", and is only interested in hyperbole and putting words in people's mouths. G'Night, homie. This was a debate? You raised no points and provided no backing material why JT Miller is a better player and defender than Kreider. It's cool. I accept your resignation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 J.T. miller put up 20 plus goals and 50 plus points here with this without hall of fame anything around him. He did it all the while being moved from position to position, line to line, even in av’s doghouse. I will not defend his defensive play. But the guy put up numbers here at 22 and 23 years of age. By no means is he a finished product either is Namestnikov. They are both still kids. The difference here is that Namestnikov has never done shit without those Hall of famers on his line. It doesn’t mean he won’t but he has more to prove than miller. Thus far his play has only raised more questions while miller is benefiting in his new situation. All the while many here pretend miller was shit here and didn’t produce. Yet they love Mza whose numbers at 30 mirror miller at 23. And no mza is not a good defensive player either. Why do people think millers career is already defined? I don’t get it. And what’s more if he goes on to play great it will only be because of what’s around him. Convenient. Fact is he showed major potential here and while never reaching it, he was still what top 3 in production amount forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 This was a debate? You raised no points and provided no backing material why JT Miller is a better player and defender than Kreider. It's cool. I accept your resignation.This post just proves why you should be ignored lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksBurner Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 This post just proves why you should be ignored lol. Zero substance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puck Head Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Who even brought up Kreider ?? And why? He has zero do to with any of this discussion Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillyb Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 This post just proves why you should be ignored lol. This post proves why you should be ignored lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillyb Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 J.T. miller put up 20 plus goals and 50 plus points here with this without hall of fame anything around him. He did it all the while being moved from position to position, line to line, even in av?s doghouse. I will not defend his defensive play. But the guy put up numbers here at 22 and 23 years of age. By no means is he a finished product either is Namestnikov. They are both still kids. The difference here is that Namestnikov has never done shit without those Hall of famers on his line. It doesn?t mean he won?t but he has more to prove than miller. Thus far his play has only raised more questions while miller is benefiting in his new situation. All the while many here pretend miller was shit here and didn?t produce. Yet they love Mza whose numbers at 30 mirror miller at 23. And no mza is not a good defensive player either. Why do people think millers career is already defined? I don?t get it. And what?s more if he goes on to play great it will only be because of what?s around him. Convenient. Fact is he showed major potential here and while never reaching it, he was still what top 3 in production amount forwards. Good points. Only thing I?d like to touch upon is Zucc?s defensive prowess. He?s been a back-checking force for this team for a few seasons and plays incredible defense even strength. I don?t think Miller?s surpassed Zucc?s defensive game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Miller doesn't even come close to zuc's defensive game. His backchecking, hustle, shot blocking and defensive IQ is above anyone on this team right now (maybe except Fast). Grabner and Nash was the only one close to those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 ;922761]This post proves why you should be ignored lol.This post proves you should eat more wings lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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