It's Time to Talk About Mika Zibanejad

[Br4d]

11 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Brother…. You’re missing the fact the most “1st line C’s” play with their teams best player at the wing.

 

Zib does not.

 

That hurts his ES production significantly.

 

This can’t be understated 

 

Well, GG tried to fix this last season after the trades by demoting CK to line 3.

 

It didn't work.

 

The other thing of course is that everybody seems to bomb out when playing with CK-MZ.  At what point do we ask whether it is the quality of the two players alongside the RW's that make them all bomb out?

Edited February 11 by Br4d

[Pete]

49 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Well, GG tried to fix this last season after the trades by demoting CK to line 3.

 

It didn't work.

 

The other thing of course is that everybody seems to bomb out when playing with CK-MZ.  At what point do we ask whether it is the quality of the two players alongside the RW's that make them all bomb out?

That's not accurate. He moved CK to L3 with Trochek earlier in the season when Tro showed zero chemistry with Panarin.

[RangersIn7]

2 hours ago, Br4d said:

 

Well, GG tried to fix this last season after the trades by demoting CK to line 3.

 

It didn't work.

 

The other thing of course is that everybody seems to bomb out when playing with CK-MZ.  At what point do we ask whether it is the quality of the two players alongside the RW's that make them all bomb out?

 

1 hour ago, Pete said:

That's not accurate. He moved CK to L3 with Trochek earlier in the season when Tro showed zero chemistry with Panarin.

Tro and CK worked.

 

He didn’t stick with it.

 

Mostly cause GG is a stubborn old fuck. 
 

As for RW with CK and Zib…. We saw Butch work there for 2 years.

 

Vatrano worked there in a smallish sample. And Tank was good there too.

 
 

You just need to get a good player, plug it in and leave it alone.

 

CK and Zib work well….

 Right now they need 3 things…

 

1) A good RW that’s can provide a spark and freshness and energy of some sort.

2) CK needs to skate and engage physically. Not glide.

3) Mika needs to shoot. 

[RangersIn7]

BTW….

 

I get the feeling that this team and it’s vets are playing measured hockey right now and “saving” it.

 

 

[RichieNextel305]

1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said:

BTW….

 

I get the feeling that this team and it’s vets are playing measured hockey right now and “saving” it.

 

 

They tried to do that last year. It didn’t work out at all because when they needed it in Game 7, it was no where to be found.

Edited February 11 by RichieNextel305

[BrooksBurner]

2 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

BTW….

 

I get the feeling that this team and it’s vets are playing measured hockey right now and “saving” it.

 

 

I don’t get that feeling at all. The feeling I get is that they still don’t know where to be on the ice more often than not, but due to their talent they can still outscore the opponent enough during the regular season to put together a solid enough record to appease most fans. Blowing two goal leads, giving up multiple goals against within a few minutes of each other with regularity, the mediocre underlying stats…are all signs of not playing as a cohesive unit in a system. Little to do with effort or saving it.

Edited February 11 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

They give up goals and bunches because it's Igor. Quick doesn't do that.

 

They know where to be on the ice, especially offensively. They get their chances, they just don't shoot when they should, especially Mika and Kreider. 

[RangersIn7]

31 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I don’t get that feeling at all. The feeling I get is that they still don’t know where to be on the ice more often than not, but due to their talent they can still outscore the opponent enough during the regular season to put together a solid enough record to appease most fans. Blowing two goal leads, giving up multiple goals against within a few minutes of each other with regularity, the mediocre underlying stats…are all signs of not playing as a cohesive unit in a system. Little to do with effort or saving it.

I disagree

 

I don’t believe that this group, all of which is pretty smart, under this coaching staff, doesn’t know these things.

 

Do I think we see lesser or developing guys get beat?

Yes.

Do I think that guys with deficiencies get beat? 

Yes.

Do I think they play on the heels and it results in some bad stuff for them?

Yes.

But they know what they’re supposed to do.

They just don’t always.

Cause it’s not a skin and blood game for them At various junctures in the regular season.

 

 

Maybe I’m wrong and if so, then I’m wrong. That doesn’t end the world if I am.

But I think they pick their engagement and spots where they amp up and go really hard.

And I also think Lavy knows this and not only does he understand the approach but agrees with it to at least some degree.

 

I’ll add that I think there is a problem with them playing some situational hockey that they not only don’t do enough but also fail to pay heed to.

 

Thats the issue. 
 

For example… vs Chicago the other night… 3-1 going into the 3rd.

While they had not been good through 2, they were still up by 2. 

That’s where everyone needs to just say fuck it… who cares… let’s park the bus…hang back… make it impossible for them to get back in this. We can all just gain the red line, dump it. 1 forechecker. 2 in the neutral zone. 2 deep behind them. And it’s all D in a boring 3rd period and we close out this game without event. No risky plays. No stupid penalties. Force easy shots on and easy saves for our goalie. And we go home with 2 points.

 

 

 

 

I think we all know that if they absolutely want to protect a 2-goal lead in the 3rd, they can. That’s an easy club to hit.

I just think that they aren’t gonna give you that unless it’s absolutely necessary. 
 

I think they (the core I mean) have learned some things over the last 2-3 seasons and it will show up in the playoffs.

 

I think they’re playing fast and loss because they know they’re talented and they know help is coming.

 

And these aren’t life altering games 

Edited February 11 by RangersIn7

[Pete]

1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said:

I disagree

 

I don’t believe that this group, all of which is pretty smart, under this coaching staff, doesn’t know these things.

 

Do I think we see lesser or developing guys get beat?

Yes.

Do I think that guys with deficiencies get beat? 

Yes.

Do I think they play on the heels and it results in some bad stuff for them?

Yes.

But they know what they’re supposed to do.

They just don’t always.

Cause it’s not a skin and blood game for them At various junctures in the regular season.

 

 

Maybe I’m wrong and if so, then I’m wrong. That doesn’t end the world if I am.

But I think they pick their engagement and spots where they amp up and go really hard.

And I also think Lavy knows this and not only does he understand the approach but agrees with it to at least some degree.

 

I’ll add that I think there is a problem with them playing some situational hockey that they not only don’t do enough but also fail to pay heed to.

 

Thats the issue. 
 

For example… vs Chicago the other night… 3-1 going into the 3rd.

While they had not been good through 2, they were still up by 2. 

That’s where everyone needs to just say fuck it… who cares… let’s park the bus…hang back… make it impossible for them to get back in this. We can all just gain the red line, dump it. 1 forechecker. 2 in the neutral zone. 2 deep behind them. And it’s all D in a boring 3rd period and we close out this game without event. No risky plays. No stupid penalties. Force easy shots on and easy saves for our goalie. And we go home with 2 points.

 

 

 

 

I think we all know that if they absolutely want to protect a 2-goal lead in the 3rd, they can. That’s an easy club to hit.

I just think that they aren’t gonna give you that unless it’s absolutely necessary. 
 

I think they (the core I mean) have learned some things over the last 2-3 seasons and it will show up in the playoffs.

 

I think they’re playing fast and loss because they know they’re talented and they know help is coming.

 

And these aren’t life altering games 

Laviolette said as much in today's presser. He said the defense is young and needs experience and seasoning. With every rep they will get better. 

 

People just don't realize how young this defense is. Their best defenseman is still only 25. Their steadiest defensive defenseman is only 27. 

 

People are saying 24-year-old defenseman are done learning and will never get any better. Shit makes me just shake my head. 

 

I learned a lot from giving up too early on Lafreniere. There were times where Zib looked like he couldn't handle the puck without having a nervous breakdown, and then he went on to 20 goals in 30 games to finish the season.

 

Players have bad stretches. Sometimes they all happen at once. The season is long and there are ebbs and flows and high points and low points.

 

This isn't football. Emotions can't ride on every win and loss. Players aren't done developing at 24 because they retire at 28. Sometimes I don't even understand why we want to trade for young players, because nobody seems to really want to be patient with the development of young players.

 

Everybody just needs to chill the fuck out because once Igor gets hot this team is going to be a force to be reckoned with.  

[RangersIn7]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

Laviolette said as much in today's presser. He said the defense is young and needs experience and seasoning. With every rep they will get better. 

 

People just don't realize how young this defense is. Their best defenseman is still only 25. Their steadiest defensive defenseman is only 27. 

 

People are saying 24-year-old defenseman are done learning and will never get any better. Shit makes me just shake my head. 

 

I learned a lot from giving up too early on Lafreniere. There were times where Zib looked like he couldn't handle the puck without having a nervous breakdown, and then he went on to 20 goals in 30 games to finish the season.

 

Players have bad stretches. Sometimes they all happen at once. The season is long and there are ebbs and flows and high points and low points.

 

This isn't football. Emotions can't ride on every win and loss. Players aren't done developing at 24 because they retire at 28. Sometimes I don't even understand why we want to trade for young players, because nobody seems to really want to be patient with the development of young players.

 

Everybody just needs to chill the fuck out because once Igor gets hot this team is going to be a force to be reckoned with.  

Thanks for saying as much and affirming the fact that I’m not crazy and that I’m not watching the Moon Landing and calling it ice hockey.

 

The roster age has gone up for sure.

 But we are still counting on big minutes from very young players.

 
 

Sandy Koufax was one of the first true bonus babies ever and had gifts from God that were evident to everyone at 18. It took him till 24-25 to harness them effectively… and then it took 2 more seasons till he was at his best.

 

Guy LaFleur, regardless of his stats, was absolutely lost for his first 3 seasons that Scotty Bowman almost traded him. Twice.

Chris Pronger got drafted 2 OVA and showed real promise as a rookie…

 

Then he backslid terribly in year 2, gained 20 pounds from beer and rich food and banging chicks…and guess what he did for a topper???

He got a DUI.

 

Plus he had a shitty attitude. And had no semblance of being a leader, much less a teammate. His skating was poor. He didn’t show physicality, and when he did, he took bad penalties, and he was an absolute turnover machine. 

 

 

Then he got traded to STL…for Brendan Shanahan no less… and it actually got worse. So did his attitude. 
 

He came into camp ridiculously out of shape. 

Literally had the worst cardio on the team… he was 21, BTW

It was so bad that Keenan had to threaten him with the minors or a trade.

He literally said to him, in front of the whole team one night…. “You’re playing like you’ve forgotten what hockey is! You fucking suck!” “

Do you know who I fucking traded for you? You should, cause he’s got 50 goals.”

 

And he improved some, but still struggled.

 

Within 18 months of that… He was their Captain and one of the best D in the league.

 

Then a year or so later… he won not only a Norris, but also an MVP. 

 

He was fucking lost at 19-21. Lost.

Looked like a crackhead out in front of a gas station. 

Then he became a HOF’er. 
 

 

Go fucking figure.

[RangersIn7]

Players that are really good. True players. That just want to play and live it and learn and view it as… “this is what I do and every day is an experience” always learn and improve.

And that’s not because of a lack of compete. It’s because they compete. No matter how relaxed they might seem. 

 

Laf is that player.

Miller is that player.

Chytil… and I hope he gets healthy again…is that player.

 

It just takes time.

Plus the right place.

And right people.

And right circumstances.

And right enough of everything.

 

And then who knows.

 

 

I once knew a man from Nantucket…

 

 

 
 

[Albatrosss]

6 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Players that are really good. True players. That just want to play and live it and learn and view it as… “this is what I do and every day is an experience” always learn and improve.

And that’s not because of a lack of compete. It’s because they compete. No matter how relaxed they might seem. 

 

Laf is that player.

Miller is that player.

Chytil… and I hope he gets healthy again…is that player.

 

It just takes time.

Plus the right place.

And right people.

And right circumstances.

And right enough of everything.

 

And then who knows.

 

 

I once knew a man from Nantucket…

 

 

 
 

Laf is that player

Miller?  Very skeptical. He hasnt shown any improvement defensively in 4 years.  And his offense isnt there either. The only attribute i see is his long stick. 

[BrooksBurner]

11 hours ago, Albatrosss said:

Laf is that player

Miller?  Very skeptical. He hasnt shown any improvement defensively in 4 years.  And his offense isnt there either. The only attribute i see is his long stick. 

 

[BrooksBurner]

17 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Players that are really good. True players. That just want to play and live it and learn and view it as… “this is what I do and every day is an experience” always learn and improve.

And that’s not because of a lack of compete. It’s because they compete. No matter how relaxed they might seem. 

 

Laf is that player.

Miller is that player.

Chytil… and I hope he gets healthy again…is that player.

 

It just takes time.

Plus the right place.

And right people.

And right circumstances.

And right enough of everything.

 

And then who knows.

 

 

I once knew a man from Nantucket…

 

 

 
 

 

Not a chance I'm throwing Miller in there with Laf in this discussion.

[Ozzy]

Dear Mika,

 

Shoot!

 

Your pal, Ozzy

[RangersIn7]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

Not a chance I'm throwing Miller in there with Laf in this discussion.

That’s fair I suppose. 
 

Though the exchange he had with Rantanen a few games back is encouraging.

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

That’s fair I suppose. 
 

Though the exchange he had with Rantanen a few games back is encouraging.

 

Not to me it wasn't. He was behind Rantanen who was on one knee and threw him backwards.

 

The fans turned a nothing burger into something because they overrate Miller in nearly every aspect of the game.

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Not to me it wasn't. He was behind Rantanen who was on one knee and threw him backwards.

 

The fans turned a nothing burger into something because they overrate Miller in nearly every aspect of the game.

You probably underrate Miller in every aspect of the game, to be fair. 

 

We have another guy here who's praising a reverse hit from Laffy as some type of generational maneuver we haven't seen since Peter Forsberg.

 

The truth always lies somewhere in the middle. Anybody who's claiming complete objectivity doesn't have any objectivity. 

[BreakawayMachine]

Mika really needs to get rid of those damn sideburns.

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

You probably underrate Miller in every aspect of the game, to be fair. 

 

We have another guy here who's praising a reverse hit from Laffy as some type of generational maneuver we haven't seen since Peter Forsberg.

 

The truth always lies somewhere in the middle. Anybody who's claiming complete objectivity doesn't have any objectivity. 

 

That's simply just not true. I give him plenty of recognition for his ability offensively, specifically on the rush, which he's shown less frequently this year than last, but it's still there and visible. I criticize him for a lack of defensive progress, and because of that I'm underrating every aspect of his game. This is what I'm talking about. Folks who overrate young players, typically based off the hope of potential rather than tangible results, can't take criticism about the warts without being overdramatic like you with me just now.

 

Rating players is a subjective exercise.

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

That's simply just not true. I give him plenty of recognition for his ability offensively, specifically on the rush, which he's shown less frequently this year than last, but it's still there and visible. I criticize him for a lack of defensive progress, and because of that I'm underrating every aspect of his game. This is what I'm talking about. Folks who overrate young players, typically based off the hope of potential rather than tangible results, can't take criticism about the warts without being overdramatic like you with me just now.

 

Rating players is a subjective exercise.

Maybe it's because you pretty exclusively speak critically of specific players, that we never really know if you see anything positive in their game because that's rarely expressed. That's what happens when you dwell in the negative. 

 

What you call hope of potential, many others see as obvious potential and upside. You want to judge based on tangible results, I guess that's one way to do it, but not necessarily for a young player who's got plenty to learn and plenty of upside.

 

Saying that a guy is done developing at 24... I don't think there's anyone who agrees with that. Especially for a defenseman who typically start hitting their stride defensively later than forwards hit their stride offensively. 

 

The fact that he is completely capable of putting up 40 points in this league with no power play time should not be almost completely discounted because he struggles at times defensively.

 

He gets talked about like a throw-in in trade scenarios, people talking about driving him to the airport, it's pretty fucking laughable. 

 

Edited February 12 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

Maybe it's because you pretty exclusively speak critically of specific players, that we never really know if you see anything positive in their game because that's rarely expressed. That's what happens when you dwell in the negative. 

 

What you call hope of potential, many others see as obvious potential and upside. You want to judge based on tangible results, I guess that's one way to do it, but not necessarily for a young player who's got plenty to learn and plenty of upside.

 

Saying that a guy is done developing at 24... I don't think there's anyone who agrees with that. Especially for a defenseman who typically start hitting their stride defensively later than forwards hit their stride offensively. 

 

The fact that he is completely capable of putting up 40 points in this league with no power play time should not be almost completely discounted because he struggles at times defensively.

 

He gets talked about like a throw-in in trade scenarios, people talking about driving him to the airport, it's pretty fucking laughable. 

 

 

It sounds to me like you're conflating a bunch of things I haven't said from others who are also critical of Miller, and painting a picture with one brush. Half of what you've said here is not my position.

 

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

It sounds to me like you're conflating a bunch of things I haven't said from others who are also critical of Miller, and painting a picture with one brush. Half of what you've said here is not my position.

 

Well, you've definitely said at least once that you'd drive him to the airport and you've definitely said he's not going to get much better than he is on D, and you definitely post more negatively than anything else regarding his game, disproportionately so, IMO.

 

All I'm saying is, if you're going for a vibe of being objective, that's not the vibe you're putting out there. 

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

Well, you've definitely said at least once that you'd drive him to the airport and you've definitely said he's not going to get much better than he is on D, and you definitely post more negatively than anything else regarding his game, disproportionately so, IMO.

 

All I'm saying is, if you're going for a vibe of being objective, that's not the vibe you're putting out there. 

 

LOL yeah I did say that, but to get a 23 year old center who has scored 60+ points twice already. I wasn't driving him to the airport because I thought he was worthless. I perceive that as terrific trade value.

 

You know what's funny, is if you search "airport" posts I've made, it's that one + a post I made in the summer of 2022. I said I'd drive Chytil to the airport if it were for PLD. I think you know Chytil was always one of the young players I saw real upside in even when noone else did, and I said it about him, so...

Edited February 12 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

LOL yeah I did say that, but to get a 23 year old center who has scored 60+ points twice already. I wasn't driving him to the airport because I thought he was worthless. I perceive that as terrific trade value.

 

You know what's funny, is if you search "airport" posts I've made, it's that one + a post I made in the summer of 2022. I said I'd drive Chytil to the airport if it were for PLD. I think you know Chytil was always one of the young players I saw real upside in even when noone else did, and I said it about him, so...

Ha, true ... I just saw that post.