GDT [RS #11] Rangers at Minnesota Wild — Zucc on This

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Br4d said:

 

The Rangers team speed is suspect at this point.  We're going to have tough games against the teams that skate very well like the Wild.  This has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with if you can't keep up you're going to be embarrassed now and then.

 

The other thing last night is the Rangers were chasing the puck in the defensive zone way too much.  It's like the new defensive pairings hadn't gotten their timing down and the forwards just had a rough night in the defensive zone.

 

Edit: just going to add that the Wheeler experiment needs to end soon.  Tough to do down a forward but he is so slow that he's a risk every time he's on the ice without regard to who the matchup is.  He's -4 now on a team that is +10 collectively and he's not even on the ice that much.

Agree on the D men chasing the puck. Disagree about Wheeler.  He was one of the few forwards who had decent opportunities.  Like Kakko, he isn't fitting on his line. Swap the 2. See what happens.  

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, phillyb said:

Hockey talk in a day old GDT? 

Fuck you guys. Tell me what Brendan Shannahan had for breakfast today. 

Janney's wife. 

[Br4d]

Just now, Pete said:

The only thing I disagree with is moving Bonino up. That guy is terrible and slow. 

 

Don't mind Vesey on the 1st line. Was trying to get some kind of use out of Wheeler. I don't see a world where he gets scratched. He got his first point with a really smart pass to Gustafsson. Maybe he can do something with that. 

 

Can Brodzinskl play RW on line 4?

 

Maybe Goodrow to C on line 3?

 

Wheeler is just too slow.  He's a matchup nightmare no matter who he is matched against because NHL players need a certain minimum speed that he no longer possesses.

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

Can Brodzinskl play RW on line 4?

 

Maybe Goodrow to C on line 3?

 

Wheeler is just too slow.  He's a matchup nightmare no matter who he is matched against because NHL players need a certain minimum speed that he no longer possesses.

I know. His top end straight ahead speed is just okay, but the stops and starts and changes of direction where he needs to accelerate coming out of it are where he struggles mightily. 

[Br4d]

Just now, Pete said:

I know. His top end straight ahead speed is just okay, but the stops and starts and changes of direction where he needs to accelerate coming out of it are where he struggles mightily. 

 

I think the one word description that best fits Wheeler's play right now is sluggish.

 

Even when he has momentum going for him the changes of direction are slow.

 

The one redeeming quality that he still has is an active stick but at the speed he moves he's often poking and slashing at air.

[The Dude]

5 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I could get on board with those line combinations until Chytil gets back but I don’t see them scratching Wheeler.  Pitlick will continue to be the 13th forward unless they use Goodrow at center and scratch Brodzinski.  
The D pairings are more of a concern while Fox is out.  
Whatever happened to untouchable in a trade Schneider?

Brodzinski had a stinker last night. I doubt we see hlhim again.  Goodrow to 3C. Pitlick stays in the lineup. Wheeler and Kakko swap spots. Kakko benefits the most from it. 

 

Cuylle-Goodrow-Kakko may be the mix of players that suites Kakko right now. As long as Goodrow shows up. He hasn’t yet this season.  He's been invisible. Maybe a move to C and a bit more icetime gets him going. 

 

If Wheeler does nothing with Zibanejad and Kreider,  well  it's no different than what they've gotten out of Kakko there. 

 

Sorry.  I'm anti Vesey on line 1 at the moment. Other options need to be looked at before that happens. Wheeler being one , and Goodrow the other. 

[Sod16]

Everything the Wild are the Devils are times three.  Blanch at the thought  Can't see how Wheeler lasts much longer, when it is obvious.

[Br4d]

One interesting thing about last night is that Laviolette got hot on the bench a couple of times.  Didn't see him shout at anybody but a couple of red-faced talking-to's where he wasn't very happy.

 

He was also animated during the timeout he called after the Wild tied it up.  Looking around the group with a red-face and some chin-wagging at high speed.

[Br4d]

13 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Sorry.  I'm anti Vesey on line 1 at the moment. Other options need to be looked at before that happens. Wheeler being one , and Goodrow the other. 

 

I think Vesey is better than Goodrow at this point.  He skates better and he plays better defense.  The only edge I think Goodrow has at this point is his willingness to mix it up if he thinks that needs doing.  That's not a plus on line 1 where the ref is going to do a pretty good job of sorting things out.

[RangersIn7]

The fast start and now sone guys being out forces their hand I think on being patient… but yeah.

 

Wheeler has been bad. And Kakko isn’t going. 
I don’t think it’s too much longer before you see a change 

[Bugg]

59 minutes ago, Br4d said:

One interesting thing about last night is that Laviolette got hot on the bench a couple of times.  Didn't see him shout at anybody but a couple of red-faced talking-to's where he wasn't very happy.

 

He was also animated during the timeout he called after the Wild tied it up.  Looking around the group with a red-face and some chin-wagging at high speed.

Timeout there was well-taken. How many times had Quinn or Gallant not done that to slow the other team's momentum? Simple common sense. 

[Br4d]

Just now, Bugg said:

Timeout there was well-taken. How many times had Quinn or Gallant not done that to slow the other team's momentum? Simple common sense. 

 

I was thinking right after the goal: time for a timeout to try to slow Minnesota's momentum and the TO got called right then.

[Bugg]

13 hours ago, BreakawayMachine said:

This team is just way too slow to compete long term. That OT was absolutely horrendous and they were skating complete circles around the Rangers for 2 minutes straight.

 

Also consider me completely off any Kakko support train. Dude is useless

The OT across the NHL has become 5 minutes of keepaway looking for a mismatch. Can't fault the Rangers for doing the same thing everyone else is doing. Would rather they play 5 on 5 for 10 minutes and have ties. But NHL won't do that.

[Scott]

True on the time out, but it did nothing.

 

Dude I couldn't disagree more. Wheeler has been soooo bad. While Vesey is far from a ideal choice to be moved up to play with Kredier and Mika, he's a much better option than Wheeler who should be worried about whether or not he's even handed a jersey before games at this point. Kakko is a lightning bolt compared to Wheeler at this point but  throwing a bigger anchor on that line I don't think helps at all. The whole Kakko continuing to stink up the ice is again essentially throwing away another opportunity that's been handed to him that wasn't earned isn't working out. He's continuing to prove he is who he is.

 

There's some gaps they're going to  desperately need to fill.  Hard to count on Chytil, and I don't think Brodzinski who's basically a lifetime AHL guy is part of the answer.

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, fletch said:

Thank you for clarification.  Given the Rangers history over the last few years, I doubt this is THE GAME that they learn to 'not take any opponent lightly, to play a full 60, to continue to do the little things and play smart hockey even when up early.'  If it is, awesome.  A common criticism of Gallant is that he failed to take in-game timeouts, and make strategic adjustments.  Laviolette took an in-game time-out to make in game adjustments, and the team still failed to work hard nor tighten things up in the defensive end.

 

I think it's better to look at this game as a point earned, a lost opportunity for a win, and a poor team performance.  I call BS that this is a 'learning experience' - it's a feel-good statement that sounds like a platitude. We've seen a bunch of games like this over the past few years with various coaching regimes. 

 

However, we can look at the recent stretch of games, and choose to see this as an aberration. With on-ice results, we can see progress and feel good about how the Rangers are doing this year, feel good about our chances of making the playoffs, and an opportunity for redemption and a deep playoff run.  Time will tell.  

What does the Rangers history over a few years and two other coaches have to do with now? Because they make mistakes that they made earlier? I'm not seeing any connection outside of trying to say that because they made this mistake in 2020, they can't learn under a different coaching staff in 2023. That seems way off. Players learn different systems, lessons on how to apply changes under different systems, and how to win and or flex in different ways many different times over their careers. They are also coming off a rudderless coach the year before and you clearly can see some of those bad habits still around from time to time, even in this 6 game streak. I think you're nitpicking the silliest thing and comment here. Your issue is that I'm saying they'll learn some things from this game? 

 

   Every team is a work in progress, and as I said, I imagine this isn't the last time they'll learn something about themselves as a team or mistakes they make in 23/24. Clearly management annd ownership  thought this team needed better coaching and a different direction, hence hiring a much more structured coach. Not just a better direction, but a hands on experienced coach that will teach players. 

[Br4d]

38 minutes ago, jsrangers said:

The whole Kakko continuing to stink up the ice is again essentially throwing away another opportunity that's been handed to him that wasn't earned isn't working out. He's continuing to prove he is who he is.

 

Kakko is a 3rd line checker.  It's what he is.  Nothing wrong with that but you need a more dynamic guy on line 1, somebody who can either consistently create chances for himself or work better with the dynamic players that tend to inhabit line 1.

 

I'm not sure Lafreniere is much more than that either but I'm almost certain that if you looked at them in isolation you'd see Lafreniere in positions of promise more often than Kakko is.

 

If I was Kakko I'd rebrand myself into a front of the net guy.  I'm not sure he has the hand-eye coordination for that but he is creating very few scoring chances for himself or others doing the bringing it out of the corner thing.  He doesn't have the quick step needed to get around others and turn those opportunities into scoring chances.

[The Dude]

19 minutes ago, jsrangers said:

True on the time out, but it did nothing.

 

Dude I couldn't disagree more. Wheeler has been soooo bad. While Vesey is far from a ideal choice to be moved up to play with Kredier and Mika, he's a much better option than Wheeler who should be worried about whether or not he's even handed a jersey before games at this point. Kakko is a lightning bolt compared to Wheeler at this point but  throwing a bigger anchor on that line I don't think helps at all. The whole Kakko continuing to stink up the ice is again essentially throwing away another opportunity that's been handed to him that wasn't earned isn't working out. He's continuing to prove he is who he is.

 

There's some gaps they're going to  desperately need to fill.  Hard to count on Chytil, and I don't think Brodzinski who's basically a lifetime AHL guy is part of the answer.

 

I don't think Kakko stinks. I think he just doesn't fit with those players as a combination. This didn't work well last year either (shows how metrics are not to be trusted as an end all be all).

 

It is probably going to be seen as a wasted opportunity, due to the perception that playing with the top forwards, resulted in nothing. I think he will do better with Trocheck (when Chytil is back)  That move should be coming soon. 

 

I think Wheeler has been pretty blah. I'm not going to sit here and say hes been good. But not a guy that is doing anything bad to hurt his line.

 

I think a simplified role as the 3rd wheel on the Zibanejad/Kreider love affair is a good spot for him. 20/93 don't require much from the RW except for defensive responsibility. Wheeler has that. So does Kakko. 

 

I'm more concerned with finding a spot that Kakko fits and can do his thing without deferring to 29/93. 

 

But with Wheeler vs Vesey..   You have a guy that has been a top 6 player his whole career.  And then you have a guy that is a 4th liner that barely stays in the lineup.

 

I think you give Wheeler the courtesy due to his overall career and even his most recent success from last season. He was brought in as the insurance policy. Well. It's time.

 

It's not even like Kakko was holding 20/93 back. They are kinda holding him back because he just doesn't fit with them. Maybe down the road (late in the season,  next year--) he will.

 

I don't think any player here is going to "improve" 20/93. I think the better offensive option is with the pedigree of Wheeler.

 

At worst the line continues down the path it will always be on.

At best it gets a proven offensive player going. Not sure what upside Vesey brings besides defensive responsibility,  which both Kakko and Wheeler have too. I see more possible upside in giving Wheeler the chance. 

 

But like they did with Lafrenière,  they need to find a spot for Kakko, to get him going and build that confidence. Lafrenière looks worlds better now. He's confident. There's less weight on his shoulders. Kakko needs that. He just needs to find his comfort zone. It's not with 20/93 and it's not with Panarin.

 

He is running out of excuses though. If he doesn't click with Trocheck. What's left to try? Can't pair him with Chytil, as he's a part of a solid line right now. 

 

I really expected more this year. It's not even close to where I thought he'd be. Lafrenière is where I expected Kakko to be and Kakko is where I expected Lafrenière to be. Glad one of them has it going on right now. 

 

Sorry for the long post

 

 

[fletch]

1 hour ago, Keirik said:

What does the Rangers history over a few years and two other coaches have to do with now? Because they make mistakes that they made earlier? I'm not seeing any connection outside of trying to say that because they made this mistake in 2020, they can't learn under a different coaching staff in 2023. That seems way off. Players learn different systems, lessons on how to apply changes under different systems, and how to win and or flex in different ways many different times over their careers. They are also coming off a rudderless coach the year before and you clearly can see some of those bad habits still around from time to time, even in this 6 game streak. I think you're nitpicking the silliest thing and comment here. Your issue is that I'm saying they'll learn some things from this game? 

 

   Every team is a work in progress, and as I said, I imagine this isn't the last time they'll learn something about themselves as a team or mistakes they make in 23/24. Clearly management annd ownership  thought this team needed better coaching and a different direction, hence hiring a much more structured coach. Not just a better direction, but a hands on experienced coach that will teach players. 

It's been a comfortable locker-room since Torts left.  Laviolette has a much better chance with young pros Laf, Kakko, etc to help mold them.  Kreider?  We've seen the same play from him regardless of the coach/system, with all the pros and cons.  He hasn't changed one bit throughout his career.  The Rangers got the 10 game bump of excitement getting to play for a new coach.  Now the grind of an 80+ game regular season sets in.  You can pencil them into a top 3 spot in the Metro, I'm fine with that.  I'll be watching the regular season for entertainment value, and hope that something changes come May/June.  Who cares where this team is in November?  

[Keirik]

10 minutes ago, fletch said:

It's been a comfortable locker-room since Torts left.  Laviolette has a much better chance with young pros Laf, Kakko, etc to help mold them.  Kreider?  We've seen the same play from him regardless of the coach/system, with all the pros and cons.  He hasn't changed one bit throughout his career.  The Rangers got the 10 game bump of excitement getting to play for a new coach.  Now the grind of an 80+ game regular season sets in.  You can pencil them into a top 3 spot in the Metro, I'm fine with that.  I'll be watching the regular season for entertainment value, and hope that something changes come May/June.  Who cares where this team is in November?  

   Well, kreider has changed through his career. I don't agree at all that a guy doesn't change. Even just from a goalscoring aspect, he's drastically changed his approach.  He does things now he didn't do even as recent as just before turning 30. But I see you cherry picking the most tenured guy in the organization on the roster. There are still plenty of people on this roster that will and can learn lessons from games, learn new systems,  adapt and adjust, etc.

 

   I feel like we are having two very different conversations here. I didn't say I cared where this team is in November, I said I think they'll learn a lesson from last nights game and hopefully when they find themselves in a similar situation, they learn from this experience. This hopefully helps in the bigger games come playoff push and allows them more success in the playoffs. They'll review the game, learn a thing or two hopefully, and hopefully find themselves better prepared when it really matters. 

[fletch]

2 minutes ago, Keirik said:

   Well, kreider has changed through his career. I don't agree at all that a guy doesn't change. Even just from a goalscoring aspect, he's drastically changed his approach.  He does things now he didn't do even as recent as just before turning 30. But I see you cherry picking the most tenured guy in the organization on the roster. There are still plenty of people on this roster that will and can learn lessons from games, learn new systems,  adapt and adjust, etc.

 

   I feel like we are having two very different conversations here. I didn't say I cared where this team is in November, I said I think they'll learn a lesson from last nights game and hopefully when they find themselves in a similar situation, they learn from this experience. This hopefully helps in the bigger games come playoff push and allows them more success in the playoffs. They'll review the game, learn a thing or two hopefully, and hopefully find themselves better prepared when it really matters. 

I appreciate the dialog, and your responses. I'm going to tap out because I don't want to rip any further into this team this afternoon.  Hopefully you are correct and this team will embrace Laviolette's system, the young players will develop, Shesterkin will have a solid post-season performance, and the Rangers will use the regular season to build a team that we haven't consistently seen, a credible Stanley Cup threat.

[Keirik]

2 hours ago, fletch said:

I appreciate the dialog, and your responses. I'm going to tap out because I don't want to rip any further into this team this afternoon.  Hopefully you are correct and this team will embrace Laviolette's system, the young players will develop, Shesterkin will have a solid post-season performance, and the Rangers will use the regular season to build a team that we haven't consistently seen, a credible Stanley Cup threat.

I certainly hope you aren't taking my replies in any rude or angry manner. I'm just explaining my opinion. I kind of agree that you do get a bit of a jump from a new coach sometimes but this is the first time the core group has had a real experienced X and O kind of coach that has won in this league post 04 lockout. Laviolette has a good amount to teach even the older guys. Maybe moreso for the younger guys but there is still a system for even vets to learn and some bad habits to learn to weed out. 

[Keirik]

9 hours ago, jsrangers said:

True on the time out, but it did nothing.

 

Dude I couldn't disagree more. Wheeler has been soooo bad. While Vesey is far from a ideal choice to be moved up to play with Kredier and Mika, he's a much better option than Wheeler who should be worried about whether or not he's even handed a jersey before games at this point. Kakko is a lightning bolt compared to Wheeler at this point but  throwing a bigger anchor on that line I don't think helps at all. The whole Kakko continuing to stink up the ice is again essentially throwing away another opportunity that's been handed to him that wasn't earned isn't working out. He's continuing to prove he is who he is.

 

There's some gaps they're going to  desperately need to fill.  Hard to count on Chytil, and I don't think Brodzinski who's basically a lifetime AHL guy is part of the answer.

Just addressing the timeout part. The timeout there is not just for that game. It's also for future reminders when the ice tilt happens like it did last night. Whatever was said may not have translated perfectly there, but it's the foundation for when something happens in the future. They've already been instructed. Laviolettes words will stick eventually and next time, it's more of a reminder rather than first in game instruction. Building blocks so to speak. 

[Scott]

Yeah hopefully there's something to take away from that effort last night. 

We've been incredibly lucky injury wise lately, especially the last 2 years. Let's see how this plays out still too early to definitively say one way or the other where we're going to land here. Some of the biggest challenges still are pretty prevalent. The next three games would seem to be winnable ones. Let's bank some more points.

Edited November 6, 2023 by jsrangers

[Br4d]

2 hours ago, jsrangers said:

Yeah hopefully there's something to take away from that effort last night. 

We've been incredibly lucky injury wise lastely, especially last 2 years. Let's see how this plays out still too early to definitively say one way or the other where we're going to land here. Some of the biggest challenges still are pretty prevalent. The next three games would seem to be winnable ones. Let's bank some more points.

 

We've been insanely lucky the last couple of years with injuries, with only Fox and Shesty missing a few games here and there.

 

We haven't had a prime contributor wiped out for the season in awhile.

[Albatrosss]

9 hours ago, Br4d said:

 

We've been insanely lucky the last couple of years with injuries, with only Fox and Shesty missing a few games here and there.

 

We haven't had a prime contributor wiped out for the season in awhile.

Wtf would you say that?  This is permaban worthy if we lose someone for the season