The Struggle Continues with Kaapo Kakko

[Br4d]

5 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

ES points

 

Kreider - 3

Zib - 3

Kakko - 2

 

Kakko‘s production isn’t a Kakko question right now. It’s a line 1 question. It’s not working.

 

This isn't a first line problem.  It's an every line but Panarin's line problem and really Panarin's line is doing well because Panarin has decided to shoot first and ask questions later.

 

Lines 1, 3 and 4 are MIA on the scoresheet at even strength.

 

The defensemen are scoring fairly well for defensemen.

[Cash or Czech]

So, when do we ring the alarms? 1 G, 1A in 11 GP. I understand he's playing with PP producers (5 of Zibanejad's and Kreider's points are from the PP, and 1 shorthanded each), but that's on pace for a 7-7-14 season over 82 games. 

 

Would a shift alongside Cuylle and Trocheck lead to better production alongside 'checking' players? I'm especially surprised given he's in a contract year.

[Valriera]

I’m not worried. Go ahead and underperform in a contract year. I’m happy with cheap Jesper fast with upside despite the disappointment that he should be better as a second overall. We need Jesper fast with upside too 

[RangersIn7]

8 minutes ago, Cash or Czech said:

So, when do we ring the alarms? 1 G, 1A in 11 GP. I understand he's playing with PP producers (5 of Zibanejad's and Kreider's points are from the PP, and 1 shorthanded each), but that's on pace for a 7-7-14 season over 82 games. 

 

Would a shift alongside Cuylle and Trocheck lead to better production alongside 'checking' players? I'm especially surprised given he's in a contract year.

If it continues much longer, I don’t think he stays on that line.

 

No idea what the timeline might be, but it can’t persist much longer. 

[Pete]

He's not hurting that line, but he's not helping it either. Zib and Kreider need a line mate to force the issue and put the puck on net. If they don't have one they'll be content to cycle all day long which is why their possession numbers are good but they're scoring numbers aren't. That's why Vatrano fit there. Volume shooter. 

[RangersIn7]

49 minutes ago, Pete said:

He's not hurting that line, but he's not helping it either. Zib and Kreider need a line mate to force the issue and put the puck on net. If they don't have one they'll be content to cycle all day long which is why their possession numbers are good but they're scoring numbers aren't. That's why Vatrano fit there. Volume shooter. 

No, he’s not killing them.

And his play isn’t awful… his production is.

 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

57 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

No, he’s not killing them.

And his play isn’t awful… his production is.

 

 

 

Any player who is slotted in the top 6 and not producing is killing the team.

 

His play and production is acceptable for a 3rd liner. That’s where he should be.

[RangersIn7]

2 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Any player who is slotted in the top 6 and not producing is killing the team.

 

His play and production is acceptable for a 3rd liner. That’s where he should be.

They’re 8-2-1.

 

Get your point.

It always sucks when a top-6 guy isn’t producing points.

 

But it’s not playing out that way in reality.

 

Guy needs to do more. Totally agree.

 

We are 11 games in. 

 

He isn’t working with Zib and CK. 
He likely won’t.

He isn’t shooting enough for them.

 

Something needs to happen.

Either a modification to his and their game or approach. Or a switch in personnel.

 

Change is coming though.

 

 

 

 

 

[siddious]

He’s got till game 15 until I start calling him Krappo Busto again.

[RangersIn7]

18 minutes ago, siddious said:

He’s got till game 15 until I start calling him Krappo Busto again.

I don’t think we go past game 15-20 before Lavvy shuffles the deck

 

Though Chytil’s injury complicates things some

Edited November 6, 2023 by RangersIn7

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, RangersIn7 said:

They’re 8-2-1.

 

Get your point.

It always sucks when a top-6 guy isn’t producing points.

 

But it’s not playing out that way in reality.

 

Guy needs to do more. Totally agree.

 

We are 11 games in. 

 

He isn’t working with Zib and CK. 
He likely won’t.

He isn’t shooting enough for them.

 

Something needs to happen.

Either a modification to his and their game or approach. Or a switch in personnel.

 

Change is coming though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right. So move him. Those two guys are top 6 players. Panarin didn't want to play with him in the past either. This reeks of a "Kakko isn't good enough for the top 6" problem. He hasn't done a single thing now or in the past to earn rope with two of the better players on the team, or anywhere in the top 6 for a team with Cup contending aspirations.

 

He's a 3rd liner right now and that's OK. Top 6 expectations should be flushed entirely (this is not the same as saying he can never be a top 6 player), so the org needs to start handling him as such. They need to stop telling him he's top 6, and he needs to start telling them he's top 6. It's that simple.

[RangersIn7]

34 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Right. So move him. Those two guys are top 6 players. Panarin didn't want to play with him in the past either. This reeks of a "Kakko isn't good enough for the top 6" problem. He hasn't done a single thing now or in the past to earn rope with two of the better players on the team, or anywhere in the top 6 for a team with Cup contending aspirations.

 

He's a 3rd liner right now and that's OK. Top 6 expectations should be flushed entirely (this is not the same as saying he can never be a top 6 player), so the org needs to start handling him as such. They need to stop telling him he's top 6, and he needs to start telling them he's top 6. It's that simple.

It’s coming if THEY don’t figure it out.

And I say they, because it’s that whole line not scoring at ES, as it’s not all on him.

 

We’ll see what happens.

 

[Br4d]

Kakko has been at his best on a fairly unpredictable line that sometimes was checking hard and sometimes was shooting from all angles.  Sometimes they were invisible as a group for long periods also.  That was the kid line.

 

However Lafreniere clearly was not at his best on that line.  He's not at his best in the corners the way Kakko is.  He needs more latitude than that to find the spots in the slot where he can make an impact off of his linemates play.  He's probably good behind the net on the right line and on either wing above the circles.

 

Probably the right move when Chytil gets back is to put Cuylle on his left and Kakko on his right and see if there's chemistry there.  You don't have to call that line 3 because the skill level is going to be somewhere between line 2 and line 3 level.

 

Leave Lafreniere and Panarin with Trocheck and see if there's something there.  Both Panarin and Trocheck will leave rebounds in front for him.

[RangersIn7]

It’s a bit ironic that we are where we are right now.

 

So many of us were high on Kakko and down on Laf…

 

Laf gets off to a fast start, looks great with Panarin and Chytil, really fits well, and while the stats aren’t overwhelming, he’s played very good hockey, has really improved his game and seems like he’s taken the step he needed to and maybe turned the corner. 
 

Kakko contrarily, seems to just be stuck in the mud right now. Doesn’t seem outright lost but he’s approaching that, really doesn’t fit with the guys he’s playing with, and just isn’t shooting the puck.

 

It’s not a point where you have to pull the ripcord… but they need to get him going, or at least get him to a point where he’s contributing in a meaningful and consistent manner. And that has to happen soon.

 

I do put some of it on Zib and CK.

They aren’t going at ES. 
With the amount if time that they have the puck and spend in the offensive zone, they don’t shoot it enough nor generate chances enough… and that’s collectively. 
You can have the puck all day long, but if you don’t put it on net, it’s not all that meaningful. 
 

Once they get everyone healthy again, I’d be surprised if their isn’t some shuffle at ES.

[Pete]

15 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

I do put some of it on Zib and CK.

They aren’t going at ES. 
With the amount if time that they have the puck and spend in the offensive zone, they don’t shoot it enough nor generate chances enough… and that’s collectively. 
You can have the puck all day long, but if you don’t put it on net, it’s not all that meaningful. 
 

Once they get everyone healthy again, I’d be surprised if their isn’t some shuffle at ES.

Agree with this (and the rest of the post, Lafreniere just riding a hot Panarin, it seems after 10 games). Curious as to why all the focus is on Kakko...his linemates are the stars. They need to get him going, not vice versa.

 

Also, nothing being suggested regarding changes feels like it will help the team, or the player. They need to be coached. 

[Keirik]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

Agree with this (and the rest of the post, Lafreniere just riding a hot Panarin, it seems after 10 games). Curious as to why all the focus is on Kakko...his linemates are the stars. They need to get him going, not vice versa.

 

Also, nothing being suggested regarding changes feels like it will help the team, or the player. They need to be coached. 

LaFreniere is just riding a hot Panarin? You don't see a noticeable difference in Lafrenieresxgame at all this year compared to any other year? Just looking for clarification here. 

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Keirik said:

LaFreniere is just riding a hot Panarin? You don't see a noticeable difference in Lafrenieresxgame at all this year compared to any other year? Just looking for clarification here. 

In fits and starts yes I see a difference, but it's not consistent. And being that consistency has been lingering issue, the fact that he's inconsistent shows me that not enough has changed.

 

He's not shooting and he has 1 assist. 

[Keirik]

Just now, Pete said:

In fits and starts yes I see a difference, but it's not consistent. And being that consistency has been lingering issue, the fact that he's inconsistent shows me that not enough has changed.

 

He's not shooting and he has 1 assist. 

I mean maybe, but you can also say he's not shooting that much and is third on the team in goals. I think he's leaps above what he's been in previous years. He's much much more engaged and looking to make a play rather than a passenger on a line. It's still a work in progress but he's trending in the right direction. 

[Pete]

1 minute ago, Keirik said:

I mean maybe, but you can also say he's not shooting that much and is third on the team in goals. I think he's leaps above what he's been in previous years. He's much much more engaged and looking to make a play rather than a passenger on a line. It's still a work in progress but he's trending in the right direction. 

I don't disagree with any of this, but Panarin is driving everything happening offensively on that line. I don't care if he's third on the team in goals, he's shooting 25%. That's not sustainable. Panarin has 40 shots and Laf has 15.

[Keirik]

15 minutes ago, Pete said:

I don't disagree with any of this, but Panarin is driving everything happening offensively on that line. I don't care if he's third on the team in goals, he's shooting 25%. That's not sustainable. Panarin has 40 shots and Laf has 15.

. Panarin is driving a heck of a lot. This is true. But the eye test shows Laf is so much more engaged this year. Just because Panarin is playing out of this world doesn't mean Laf isn't also improved himself.   He's making the most of his opportunities right now. I'm not sure how we are looking at that as a negative. 25% isn't sustainable but starting off the year exactly how we wished is great for a 22 year old that really needed it. At least one of them is seizing an opportunity. 

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Keirik said:

. Panarin is driving a heck of a lot. This is true. But the eye test shows Laf is so much more engaged this year. Just because Panarin is playing out of this world doesn't mean Laf isn't also improved himself.   He's making the most of his opportunities right now. I'm not sure how we are looking at that as a negative. 25% isn't sustainable but starting off the year exactly how we wished is great for a 22 year old that really needed it. At least one of them is seizing an opportunity. 

 I'm not going to turn this into another debate about  Lafreniere because I understand he has his apologists. 

 

My point is that if he were flipped with KK, he likely doesn't have the 4 goals and might even be closer to KKs 1G,1A stat line and what would everybody be saying? The player looks fine, the metrics look fine, but the production isn't there. And that's exactly what's being said about Kakko and I don't understand why he's the focal point when his line mates are not doing anything to drive anything at even strength either.

 

Lafreniere has the benefit of playing with Panarin. What are Zib and CK doing? 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Pete

[RangersIn7]

39 minutes ago, Pete said:

Agree with this (and the rest of the post, Lafreniere just riding a hot Panarin, it seems after 10 games). Curious as to why all the focus is on Kakko...his linemates are the stars. They need to get him going, not vice versa.

 

Also, nothing being suggested regarding changes feels like it will help the team, or the player. They need to be coached. 

I don’t think LaFreniere is simply riding a hot Panarin.

I think he’s looked good in his own right and the eye test plays that out in reality. And he seems a good complement there to me too.

They fit together right now.

 

Your opinion may vary, but I think he looks like a better and more evolved hockey player. And I think there is more coming.

How much more remains to be seen, but I’m pleased with the early returns.

 

Maybe you’re right… it’s early in a long season. So we will see. 
 

As for Kakko… yeah… I think Mika and CK need to do more at ES. 

As you said, those two are the established stars. It’s more on them then on him.

It’s weird cause they’re doing most of the right things and doing them pretty consistently, it’s not translating into production. 

But those two need to drive play more.

 

Right now, it’s like all 3 of them are passengers on that line. 
No one wants to take things over. 
Maybe they figure it out, but it’s not encouraging in terms of actual results and productivity.

 

Hard to bitch though when you’re 8-2-1

 

Lets all relax on some level and hope the coaches find a solution… They’re certainly capable of doing that.

[The Dude]

22 minutes ago, Keirik said:

I mean maybe, but you can also say he's not shooting that much and is third on the team in goals. I think he's leaps above what he's been in previous years. He's much much more engaged and looking to make a play rather than a passenger on a line. It's still a work in progress but he's trending in the right direction. 

I mostly agree with you here. BUT he's most certainly a passenger on the line. I don't mean that as an insult either. That's what his role is. He doesn't have to carry the puck. He doesn't have to make many decisions.  Just get open and anticipate the play. Use hockey sense. 

 

He's playing very well and I'm really happy with his play.  He's getting to where he needs to be on the ice. He's finding shooting lanes. He's going to the front of the net for tap ins. He's skating hard. You can see the effort. 

 

At times he does questionable things with the puck on zone entries,  but that is hopefully just brain farts and left over habits that will be filtered out of him. 

 

 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

I don’t think LaFreniere is simply riding a hot Panarin.

I think he’s looked good in his own right and the eye test plays that out in reality. And he seems a good complement there to me too.

They fit together right now.

 

Your opinion may vary, but I think he looks like a better and more evolved hockey player. And I think there is more coming.

How much more remains to be seen, but I’m pleased with the early returns.

 

Maybe you’re right… it’s early in a long season. So we will see. 
 

As for Kakko… yeah… I think Mika and CK need to do more at ES. 

As you said, those two are the established stars. It’s more on them then on him.

It’s weird cause they’re doing most of the right things and doing them pretty consistently, it’s not translating into production. 

But those two need to drive play more.

 

Right now, it’s like all 3 of them are passengers on that line. 
No one wants to take things over. 
Maybe they figure it out, but it’s not encouraging in terms of actual results and productivity.

 

Hard to bitch though when you’re 8-2-1

 

Lets all relax on some level and hope the coaches find a solution… They’re certainly capable of doing that.

I already replied to a lot of the points about Laf, so I'm not going to address that again, Panarin has 40 shots and Mika and CK have 30. Panarin has 20 more total shot attempts than Mika and 40 more than Krieder. 

 

They're just not shooting the puck enough. 

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

I already replied to a lot of the points about Laf, so I'm not going to address that again, Panarin has 40 shots and Mika and CK have 30. Panarin has 20 more total shot attempts than Mika and 40 more than Krieder. 

 

They're just not shooting the puck enough. 

 

Panarin is definitely getting shots to the net.  This has been a sticking point for me for the last 3 seasons.

 

When I watched that 2nd goal in Minny on Saturday, that was a guy that just fired away, and either was hoping to get it through for a rebound, or saw a spot up high and trusted his ability to beat him.  Either way, that's what gets second chances and rebounds.  I don't know how many rebound goals we have, but I'll bet tit's a relatively low number.

 

Kakko needs to shoot...period.  He makes a million moves to get a look and then passes the opportunity WAY TOO MUCH for my liking.  He has a fucking missile of a wrist shot and it's simply wasting away.

 

I love the kid to death, but I'm gonna go down to the glass next game, punch him in the damn helmet, and wake him the hell up!  LOL