The Struggle Continues with Kaapo Kakko

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I learn something every day.  Didn’t know Vesey has fans. 

Welcome to BSB. You must be new here.   

[RangersIn7]

11 hours ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

I learn something every day.  Didn’t know Vesey has fans. 

Are you not a fan of his, RJ?

[RJWantsTheCup]

29 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Are you not a fan of his, RJ?

I’m a Rangers fan so I route for all Rangers players but am I specifically a Vesey fan? Not so much, but he has made himself into a useful player this time around. 

[RangersIn7]

Just now, RJWantsTheCup said:

I’m a Rangers fan so I route for all Rangers players but am I specifically a Vesey fan? Not so much, but he has made himself into a useful player this time around. 

Right on

 

Yeah… I’m not Vesey fanboy #1 by any means… but no one can deny how good he’s been for them and what he’s done to evolve into the player he is now.

Guy was on a PTO last September, which isn’t too many steps north of possibly being done in the NHL. And yet here he is. 

[Ozzy]

22 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

Are you not a fan of his, RJ?

 

RJ is a fan of Hank...period!  He has to be! 

Actually we ALL have to be, because if you say anything even remotely negative about Hank you must immediately duck any any flying dishes, trays, glasses or punches very quickly!!!  LOL

[Albatrosss]

18 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

RJ is a fan of Hank...period!  He has to be! 

Actually we ALL have to be, because if you say anything even remotely negative about Hank you must immediately duck any any flying dishes, trays, glasses or punches very quickly!!!  LOL

So you’re saying that RJ is a violent person?

[RangersIn7]

23 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

RJ is a fan of Hank...period!  He has to be! 

Actually we ALL have to be, because if you say anything even remotely negative about Hank you must immediately duck any any flying dishes, trays, glasses or punches very quickly!!!  LOL

He ONCE wore a suit I thought was a little dated. 

[Ozzy]

17 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

So you’re saying that RJ is a violent person?

 

RJ is probably about the nicest dude ever.  ...but we always talk nice about Hank...He'll tell you why!     @RJWantsTheCup

 

11 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

He ONCE wore a suit I thought was a little dated. 

 

I got in trouble for saying that!!  I think I got a half-eaten wing thrown at me!  LOL

[RJWantsTheCup]

16 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

RJ is probably about the nicest dude ever.  ...but we always talk nice about Hank...He'll tell you why!     @RJWantsTheCup

 

 

I got in trouble for saying that!!  I think I got a half-eaten wing thrown at me!  LOL

My wife will castrate anyone who talks bad about Hank.

[Ozzy]

I only got a kick in the shins!!  ....good thing she knows me!!! 

[Br4d]

Three step process that becomes four way too often:

 

1.  Get to the corner and get the puck.   Check.

 

2.  Move it off the boards in traffic and towards the slot.  Check.

 

3.  Take a shot or make a pass into the slot.  One step too many.

 

4.  Cycle the puck back to the point.  Check.

 

What Kakko needs right now is a giant lightbulb to pop off in his head telling him that if he can do 1+2 consistently, which he seems able to do, 3 is the easy part and needs to happen a lot more often than 4.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a guy who was as good at getting the puck and so bad at doing something with it afterwards.  This has to be a speed of thought problem.

[BrooksBurner]

Here’s a thought:

 

Rangers should be looking at extending Kakko long term right now at a cap hit like Chytil’s. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a legitimate top 6, but there is a still a chance he elevates his game. I am willing to bet his floor is a quality mid 6 player throughout his career though. Drury should extend him just like he extended Chytil last year midseason. Same dealio. 4 years x $4.4M.

[Phil]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Here’s a thought:

 

Rangers should be looking at extending Kakko long term right now at a cap hit like Chytil’s. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a legitimate top 6, but there is a still a chance he elevates his game. I am willing to bet his floor is a quality mid 6 player throughout his career though. Drury should extend him just like he extended Chytil last year midseason. Same dealio. 4 years x $4.4M.

 

On paper, yes, but this is the Danger Zone thing Josh warned about for years, and he was right. When you start piling these types of contracts up, your cap room tends to evaporate really quickly. When the team is good, it doesn't bother you, but the moment they aren't, you quickly realize how difficult it makes the process of changing that.

[RangersIn7]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

On paper, yes, but this is the Danger Zone thing Josh warned about for years, and he was right. When you start piling these types of contracts up, your cap room tends to evaporate really quickly. When the team is good, it doesn't bother you, but the moment they aren't, you quickly realize how difficult it makes the process of changing that.

Can’t look at him just yet

Its early too and the numbers indicate good things, even if they aren’t scoring at ES

 

But I think something has been missed.

 

Lavvy is using them as the top line, but in a two-way manner.

 

Obviously he’s wanting more at ES, but he’s expecting them to play 200-foot hockey. Their deployment, role, expectations and responsibilities have changed.

Its an obvious change but I think it’s getting missed. 
He has the 2nd line to lean on offensively. 
 

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

On paper, yes, but this is the Danger Zone thing Josh warned about for years, and he was right. When you start piling these types of contracts up, your cap room tends to evaporate really quickly. When the team is good, it doesn't bother you, but the moment they aren't, you quickly realize how difficult it makes the process of changing that.

Agreed 100% on danger zone, but what cap hit amount and length that qualifies as danger zone is a gray area. I don’t think 4.4 qualifies when the cap is going to increase to over 90 million across the next two summers.

 

I also think the danger zone is more about signing players who have topped out their potential and giving them top dollar for what they provide. This is Trocheck, Strome, etc. That represents a situation where they either produce at their contract or underperform. Kakko’s age dictates a reasonable chance to outperform the contract and be, say, a $6M player at some point within the next 4 years. Now you save cap.

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Agreed 100% on danger zone, but what cap hit amount and length that qualifies as danger zone is a gray area. I don’t think 4.4 qualifies when the cap is going to increase to over 90 million across the next two summers.

 

I also think the danger zone is more about signing players who have topped out their potential and giving them top dollar for what they provide. This is Trocheck, Strome, etc. That represents a situation where they either produce at their contract or underperform. Kakko’s age dictates a reasonable chance to outperform the contract and be, say, a $6M player at some point within the next 4 years. Now you save cap.

 

Potentially, yes. But Kakko can still fall into the same trap. That's why danger zone deals are so ... dangerous. I agree, Kakko has more potential upside than Trocheck/Strome types, but all these deals require a baseline of production that I'm not sure any of us can argue in good faith that we're comfortable he'll meet. It's never been there. It may never be there. He's a really good, really responsible player, but upside isn't the same thing as production. It's a lot easier to shake off the idea of Kakko as a semi-permanent third-liner when he makes $2.2 million. When you double that, even with a rising cap, shit can get shaky fast.

 

It goes back to the potentiality/actuality thing that Jeff Marek always talks about. That really tends to come to a head when it comes time to make this kind of financial decision. It's risky.

 

The Sabres, for example, did exactly this with their defenseman Samuelsson. At the time, everyone went " this could really work out!" Then they had to pay Power, Dahlin, Thompson, and all the guys who actually produce, and now, if you ask fans, there's a boatload of buyers remorse. Not because he's a bad player, but because it's hard to justify the investment.

[Br4d]

Right now an extension for Kakko would be a guess.  Let him start producing first.

[Phil]

Again, he's a good, reliable player. He has some skills you can see every night. But it's never translated into real, tangible production. He has a career-high of 40 points and though he's gradually progressed every year he's been in the league, he's a career 33-point player. I'm just in no hurry at all to lock up a player like that. That's Joel Ward territory. Won't stop him from finding work, but I don't understand the hurry in wanting to marry this kind of player.

[RangersIn7]

13 minutes ago, Phil said:

Again, he's a good, reliable player. He has some skills you can see every night. But it's never translated into real, tangible production. He has a career-high of 40 points and though he's gradually progressed every year he's been in the league, he's a career 33-point player. I'm just in no hurry at all to lock up a player like that. That's Joel Ward territory. Won't stop him from finding work, but I don't understand the hurry in wanting to marry this kind of player.

Yeah

All true

 

But I think you also know he’s going to eventually progress into more than that..  and his version of “more than that” will be good and valuable, whatever version that is

 

Stop the black cloud stuff with them.

Not you directly.

But it’s there.

And it’s unwarranted 

Give them the extended look they need.

 

Itll be fine

 

Chytil

Miller

Kakko

Lafreniere

 

All good players with real upside.

 

Play it out.

Play them.

 

Theres an Alpha or two, there too.

 

We are in a good spot.

 

Playing just first 10% of games this year.

 

Be easy my brother 

 

 

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah

All true

 

But I think you also know he’s going to eventually progress into more than that..  and his version of “more than that” will be good and valuable, whatever version that is

 

Stop the black cloud stuff with them.

Not you directly.

But it’s there.

And it’s unwarranted 

Give them the extended look they need.

 

Itll be fine

 

Chytil

Miller

Kakko

Lafreniere

 

All good players with real upside.

 

Play it out.

Play them.

 

Theres an Alpha or two, there too.

 

We are in a good spot.

 

Playing just first 10% of games this year.

 

Be easy my brother 

 

 

 

I mean, do we? That's exactly my point. Kakko is still potentiality with little actuality. That works as long as the player is cheap. It's great for guys on ELCs, on prove-it one-year deals, and inexpensive second contracts. He's going into his third.

 

I'm fine playing it out to see if there's any there there. I'd much rather do that than rush into an extension now.

[RangersIn7]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

I mean, do we? That's exactly my point. Kakko is still potentiality with little actuality. That works as long as the player is cheap. It's great for guys on ELCs, on prove-it one-year deals, and inexpensive second contracts. He's going into his third.

 

I'm fine playing it out to see if there's any there there. I'd much rather do that than rush into an extension now.

Bet your life, no?

 

Logically, yes.

 

Hes going to continue to progress into a very good player.

It just hasn’t happened in the way and within the timeframe we’ve wanted.

 

But it’s clear that whatever he gets to will be good and worthwhile to have.

 

His improvement has been steady and significant. And easily observed.

 

And the Finns are actually the most reliable, fundamentally sound players. Which is why the seemingly always manage to win medals at tournaments.

Its not an accident.

 

Hes one of those guys.

 

His game is rounding into a very complete one.

Hes the kind of player that’s always a challenge to play against.

 

Dont back off 

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Bet your life, no?

 

Logically, yes.

 

Hes going to continue to progress into a very good player.

It just hasn’t happened in the way and within the timeframe we’ve wanted.

 

But it’s clear that whatever he gets to will be good and worthwhile to have.

 

His improvement has been steady and significant. And easily observed.

 

And the Finns are actually the most reliable, fundamentally sound players. Which is why the seemingly always manage to win medals at tournaments.

Its not an accident.

 

Hes one of those guys.

 

His game is rounding into a very complete one.

Hes the kind of player that’s always a challenge to play against.

 

Dont back off 

Steady? Yes.

Significant? No.

Easily-observed? Yes.

 

And that, right there, is why we fundamentally disagree on this. It completely explains away the divide between the wait and see crowd (me) and the invest in him now group (Brooks, maybe yourself). You have faith I don't.

 

I simply cannot get on board with a statement like "whatever he gets to will be good and worthwhile to have" because that depends entirely on the financial impact of the deal he signs.

 

I've no doubt that much of what you are saying is true, but I stop short of "so buy the dip."

[Br4d]

Kakko has most of the tools but not the confidence to enable them right now.

 

He's also missing a key tool in skating speed.  It's not clear to me that everything else he brings to the table is worth a lot minus the ability to get around the defender in space.

 

When he's controlling the puck in the offensive end he is doing that at a very controlled pace with no burst involved.  This is one of the reasons he has difficulty getting a shot off when he comes out of the corner.  There's no lane for him to the net and he cannot make one at the speed that he plays.

 

He's most effective right now in the corners in the defensive end.  When he gets the puck there is a lot of ice to pass too.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Br4d

[Albatrosss]

2 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Here’s a thought:

 

Rangers should be looking at extending Kakko long term right now at a cap hit like Chytil’s. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a legitimate top 6, but there is a still a chance he elevates his game. I am willing to bet his floor is a quality mid 6 player throughout his career though. Drury should extend him just like he extended Chytil last year midseason. Same dealio. 4 years x $4.4M.

interesting idea. If Kakko takes that, it means him and his agent do not believe he's going to grow and become a better player with better potential to earn more.  Basically he is who he is now.  That would be troublesome.  

[BrooksBurner]

20 minutes ago, Albatrosss said:

interesting idea. If Kakko takes that, it means him and his agent do not believe he's going to grow and become a better player with better potential to earn more.  Basically he is who he is now.  That would be troublesome.  

Does it though? Did Hughes lack confidence when he took 8, now that he’s worth 12+?

 

Guaranteed money has value, even if confidence is there.

Edited October 30, 2023 by BrooksBurner