The Struggle Continues with Kaapo Kakko

[Albatrosss]

3 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Does it though? Did Hughes lack confidence when he took 8, now that he’s worth 12+?

 

Guaranteed money has value, even if confidence is there.

Hughes is injury prone. He's small and could get sent to retirement any time by a Trouba like hit.  I have no confidence in Hughes surviving in the NHL long term.  Guaranteed money makes sense but Kakko's potential is not set in stone just yet

[RangersIn7]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

Steady? Yes.

Significant? No.

Easily-observed? Yes.

 

And that, right there, is why we fundamentally disagree on this. It completely explains away the divide between the wait and see crowd (me) and the invest in him now group (Brooks, maybe yourself). You have faith I don't.

 

I simply cannot get on board with a statement like "whatever he gets to will be good and worthwhile to have" because that depends entirely on the financial impact of the deal he signs.

 

I've no doubt that much of what you are saying is true, but I stop short of "so buy the dip."

Yeah.

But you’re hijacking it and overstating what I said.

At no point did I say sign him long-term. Nor did I say an outrageous amount… nor did I name term or amount.

 

I didn’t say or paint him as a “must have “ player. I simply said he’d have good value and be a worthwhile player to have around.

 

But it would all depend on the deal.

Thats obvious. 
 

And that could be wide-ranging.

I can share my thoughts on the details if you like. 

But I do believe you could find a deal with him long-term at the right price that we’d be ok with. In a few roles.

He may not be what we’d have liked or expect.

But he can still be significant, impactful, valuable, and versatile.

 

 

[The Dude]

7 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

Here’s a thought:

 

Rangers should be looking at extending Kakko long term right now at a cap hit like Chytil’s. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a legitimate top 6, but there is a still a chance he elevates his game. I am willing to bet his floor is a quality mid 6 player throughout his career though. Drury should extend him just like he extended Chytil last year midseason. Same dealio. 4 years x $4.4M.

3-4 X 3.5 is something I'd be comfortable with. 

 

I had a lot of confidence in him coming into this season. He looks to be in great shape and most of his game looks good. It's just that the kid doesn't shoot or find shooting lanes. 

 

Yes, yes, it's still early and the Rangers have given lesser talents longer opportunities. I'm really getting worried that he may not have it. Poor kid really could have used a stint in the AHL at some point.  Just to get the kinks out of this inability to get a shot off. 

 

Hopefully it just clicks. Lafrenière has been able to do it. He's found that comfort level. That confidence. 

 

I've said a bunch of times that I don't see Kakkos style meshing with the combo of Kreider and Zibanejad. I think Trocheck and Cuylle or Zibanejad and Cuylle can unlock the need to shoot more or be able to find the lanes he just isn't getting.  

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

I'm getting a bit worried. I haven't watched too much of the games so far this season, but 1+1 in 9 games, 18 point pace after 10% of the season is not good. I don't know how many times he's tried that forehand-backhand move he did on the breakaway last night, and it NEVER works. It's either that or deking into the goalie. He refuses to take a normal forehand shot like a normal player.

 

Hopefully he starts racking up some points when Zibanejad wakes up (at ES), but I'm starting to believe this is who he is. A responsible, middle-6, 40-ish point player.

[Br4d]

22 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

I'm getting a bit worried. I haven't watched too much of the games so far this season, but 1+1 in 9 games, 18 point pace after 10% of the season is not good. I don't know how many times he's tried that forehand-backhand move he did on the breakaway last night, and it NEVER works. It's either that or deking into the goalie. He refuses to take a normal forehand shot like a normal player.

 

Hopefully he starts racking up some points when Zibanejad wakes up (at ES), but I'm starting to believe this is who he is. A responsible, middle-6, 40-ish point player.

 

The problem is that his play style is mostly self-generation and it's tough to pick up points that way unless you're really talented. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

19 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

The problem is that his play style is mostly self-generation and it's tough to pick up points that way unless you're really talented. 

True, but it's worrisome that he's in his 5th season now and still haven't figured out how to be more productive.

 

And the most annoying thing is watching him do the same shit over and over again. Passing up a shooting opportunity in the slot or deking into the goalies pads are his most used moves. Both sucks and should be very easy to coach out of him.

[Br4d]

5 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

True, but it's worrisome that he's in his 5th season now and still haven't figured out how to be more productive.

 

And the most annoying thing is watching him do the same shit over and over again. Passing up a shooting opportunity in the slot or deking into the goalies pads are his most used moves. Both sucks and should be very easy to coach out of him.

 

He works hard.  He's like the anti-Laffy: always moving and rarely productive out of all the work.

 

I'm still not sold on either of them as top-6 at this point.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Just now, Br4d said:

 

He works hard.  He's like the anti-Laffy: always moving and rarely productive out of all the work.

 

I'm still not sold on either of them as top-6 at this point.

Yeah I feel like Laf gets rewarded every time he decided to show up, while Kakko always shows up, but rarely gets rewarded for it.

 

I like Kakko more than I probably should lol, but even I'm starting to run out of patience with him. Working hard and being responsible is all good, but if you can't produce at the same time it doesn't really help too much. Makes you a solid bottom 6 JAG.

[Br4d]

Laffy has the talent but maybe not the dedication and desire.

 

Kakko has the d&d but maybe not the talent.

 

Hopefully one of them works out as a top line player.

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, Br4d said:

Laffy has the talent but maybe not the dedication and desire.

 

Kakko has the d&d but maybe not the talent.

 

Hopefully one of them works out as a top line player.

He has the talent, just not the foot speed. Other players have been successful without it, he needs to figure out a way to be. 

[Br4d]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

He has the talent, just not the foot speed. Other players have been successful without it, he needs to figure out a way to be. 

 

He blows routine shots all the time.

 

It's not as pronounced as it was a couple of years ago but basically when he winds up with an open net he is 50/50 to miss the cage.

[Valriera]

Kakko has a completely different issue than lafreniere and that is confidence. The guy is untouchable on the boards and has absolutely no desire to go to the net. He’s a virgin. He will grow out of it eventually. It’s the only gap in his game and he is already Jesper fast with upside, who as we found out, is a very bad player to let go of. I know we all want things to complain about but Kappo Kakko is not one of them and neither is Laf at this point

[Pete]

36 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

He blows routine shots all the time.

 

It's not as pronounced as it was a couple of years ago but basically when he winds up with an open net he is 50/50 to miss the cage.

This is just not true. Look at the Extra Stats section. He gets his shot on that more than half the time, except for this season. 

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/k/kakkoka01.html

 

I don't know how you quantify this stuff.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Pete

[Br4d]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is just not true. Look at the Extra Stats section. He gets his shot on that more than half the time, except for this season. 

 

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/k/kakkoka01.html

 

I don't know how you quantify this stuff.

 

 

 

That doesn't show open shots missed.  It shows overall percentage of shots missed.

 

With Kakko it is like a given that if he has a wide open net it is 50/50 he misses it.  Until last year that was one of his defining characteristics.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Br4d

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

That doesn't show open shots missed.  It shows overall percentage of shots missed.

 

With Kakko it is like a given that if he has a wide open net it is 50/50 he misses it.  Until last year that was one of his defining characteristics.

Well there's no data to support that so I'll take it with a grain of salt with the rest of the unfounded criticisms. 

[BrooksBurner]

ES points

 

Kreider - 3

Zib - 3

Kakko - 2

 

Kakko‘s production isn’t a Kakko question right now. It’s a line 1 question. It’s not working.

[Drew a Penalty]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

ES points

 

Kreider - 3

Zib - 3

Kakko - 2

 

Kakko‘s production isn’t a Kakko question right now. It’s a line 1 question. It’s not working.

 

The Rangers just aren't producing at 5v5 in general. Is it really just a first line problem?

 

Panarin has the most 5v5 points at 6 followed by Chyil at 4 and then Miller and Lafreniere at 3 points. Everyone else is at 2 or below. This is still a team that's running its offense entirely through the powerplay. They still haven't figured out how to translate their defensive play into consistent offense.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

The Rangers just aren't producing at 5v5 in general. Is it really just a first line problem?

 

Panarin has the most 5v5 points at 6 followed by Chyil at 4 and then Miller and Lafreniere at 3 points. Everyone else is at 2 or below. This is still a team that's running its offense entirely through the powerplay. They still haven't figured out how to translate their defensive play into consistent offense.

 

Thats fair. After a promising start with underlying stats, the team is now 19th in xGF%, 15th in CF%, and 22nd in HDCF%.

 

This is a GG record right now.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

At this point it feels like this is the teams DNA. Of course there's things to adjust and hopefully improve on, but this roster is designed to play like they do. Rely on good goaltending and a great PP.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

8 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Thats fair. After a promising start with underlying stats, the team is now 19th in xGF%, 15th in CF%, and 22nd in HDCF%.

 

This is a GG record right now.

 

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

At this point it feels like this is the teams DNA. Of course there's things to adjust and hopefully improve on, but this roster is designed to play like they do. Rely on good goaltending and a great PP.

 

I think you're spot on, but I also think we won't know for sure for a bit. The odds are/were low that a coaching change was all that was needed, but not impossible.

 

I hope Lavi is smart enough to know that the road trip was actually dreadful at 5v5, sans the Kraken game.

[Drew a Penalty]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

Thats fair. After a promising start with underlying stats, the team is now 19th in xGF%, 15th in CF%, and 22nd in HDCF%.

 

This is a GG record right now.

 

The offense will come at some point once the systems become second nature. I think they're still playing a little conservatively and without the true counter-punch ability that the system can allow for.

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

The offense will come at some point once the systems become second nature. I think they're still playing a little conservatively and without the true counter-punch ability that the system can allow for.

Agree with this, also factor in that they have only played 2 home games and been on a long road trip. That matters. They clearly hit the wall in the last 2 games but managed wins. Good on them.

 

It's a concern, but need a bigger sample size before we worry.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Pete

[Albatrosss]

i remember when Alain Vigneault was hired after Torts and the team was totally lost because Torts utilized a Zone defensive system but Vignault utilized man to man.  It took a while to "get it".  Im hoping current team is still learning Lavi's system and we'll see improvement at even strength

[Ozzy]

4 hours ago, Drew a Penalty said:

The offense will come at some point once the systems become second nature. I think they're still playing a little conservatively and without the true counter-punch ability that the system can allow for.

 

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Agree with this, also factor in that they have only played 2 home games and been on a long road trip. That matters. They clearly hit the wall in the last 2 games but managed wins. Good on them.

 

It's a concern, but need a bigger sample size before we worry.

 

Bingo, Bango Bongo!!

 

...all a dress rehearsal for April!  We'll get there!