2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[Bugg]

29 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Thought this was interesting. As you can see, the playmaker managed to create one single HDC the entire series. Trocheck 3x as many.

 

I think it's fair to say there's no one else than Panarin to blame for his embarrassing showing these 7 games.

Don't think Panarin's playoff failure is a surprise. Proof again 7 game playoff series is a different more physical game than the regular season. 

[Pete]

39 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Thought this was interesting. As you can see, the playmaker managed to create one single HDC the entire series. Trocheck 3x as many.

 

I think it's fair to say there's no one else than Panarin to blame for his embarrassing showing these 7 games.

I think that's a conclusion that you're choosing to draw, but that's not the conclusion that that data points to.

 

What it points to is asking why a player who is so good during the regular season is it having that success translate into the playoffs.

 

What you guys are doing is just saying that he stinks, which is pretty laughable. This was a collective failure by everybody involved. Did Panarin fail? Yes, was he alone in that, not even close. 

 

Like I said, there's a lot of people here who are angry and are looking to punish players instead of actually thinking about what's going to make the team better. 

[Sharpshooter]

The same people who want Panarin traded so badly will probably miss him when the team is lacking a 90-100 point player, who aren't exactly easy to come by. I wouldn't be shocked if he's moved, but I'm not expecting it. I'm really not expecting any huge trades involving our big guys. Number one, because it's difficult or near impossible, and two, they're finally going to give them a good coach to work under.

[The Dude]

11 hours ago, Phil said:

They would miss him terribly. He's the only creative defensman they have capable of making an outlet pass. The next best guy on the team capable of moving the puck up the ice is the god damned goalie.

 

Fox had his worst game as a Ranger in that game seven and has plenty of problems to work on, but trading him would probably kill them and set the franchise back a decade.

Point taken.

 

I think alot if people don't give Schneider the credit he deserves for his outlet passes & his ability to carry the puck into the zone to create. I see smarter, less thinking, on the fly decisions made offensively, develop from his stick. He's not afraid to take the hard shot from anywhere. Zero hesitation. He will cut to the net too for a tap in, but it seems like nobody ever covers for this rushes, if it goes back the other way. But he keeps it more simple and I guess north/south than the others. 

 

That's something this D struggles with. If they mixed it up more and took a more simple route , instead of passing it back and forth so damn much, there would be more offensive chances. 

 

I have no problem with Trouba. But, I really can't wait to see Schneider take his spot or be put in a bigger role.  

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

16 minutes ago, Pete said:

What you guys are doing is just saying that he stinks, which is pretty laughable. This was a collective failure by everybody involved. Did Panarin fail? Yes, was he alone in that, not even close. 

Switch out Panarin with Gallant and you're doing the exact same thing.

 

Again - my emotions has nothing to do with this, not sure why you keep bringing that up. We're looking to hold people accountable, not "punish" them. If you think having a guy eat 11.5m on the cap and not impacting a 7-game series AT ALL is all fine and not a part of the problem then you're allowed to think that, but you got to allow others to not hold that same view.

 

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

instead of actually thinking about what's going to make the team better. 

That's exactly what we're doing. Getting the 11.5m guy that plays like a 3m guy when it matters the most off the team would help this team a lot. No, not "addition by subtraction", we're not saying he's useless. We're just saying he's paid waaaaay better than what he produces, and that's a big problem.

 

And yes I know that he's practically untradeable, but the conversation is still needed.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Switch out Panarin with Gallant and you're doing the exact same thing.

 

Again - my emotions has nothing to do with this, not sure why you keep bringing that up. We're looking to hold people accountable, not "punish" them. If you think having a guy eat 11.5m on the cap and not impacting a 7-game series AT ALL is all fine and not a part of the problem then you're allowed to think that, but you got to allow others to not hold that same view.

 

That's exactly what we're doing. Getting the 11.5m guy that plays like a 3m guy when it matters the most off the team would help this team a lot. No, not "addition by subtraction", we're not saying he's useless. We're just saying he's paid waaaaay better than what he produces, and that's a big problem.

 

And yes I know that he's practically untradeable, but the conversation is still needed.

The fact that the matter is that he's not getting traded, and if he is getting traded it's going to be a step back. At a pretty big one. 

 

Fans shouldn't even entertain the idea of him not being on the team unless it becomes a reality. Therefore the next logical step is to figure out what the issue is.

 

I'm at the gym now but I have some more thoughts on this, I'll write them down later. 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Thought this was interesting. As you can see, the playmaker managed to create one single HDC the entire series. Trocheck 3x as many.

 

I think it's fair to say there's no one else than Panarin to blame for his embarrassing showing these 7 games.

I know that's what it says, but I can count atleast 4 high danger chances that Panarin had that were saved or he missed the net. Panarin was a buzz saw and went to the hard spots on the ice. He just couldn't pot any of his chances  He wasn't able to set anyone up because he was doing a lot more puck carrying than he did last post season. Which is what we demanded. He had no puck luck. 

 

Though they didn't put up the points, I feel like Panarin AND Trocheck played with the necessary motor by keeping their feet moving and going to the middle of the ice when they could. 

 

I'm all alone here in thinking Panarin didn't play "bad". He just didn't capitalize when they needed him to, or at all. Yes,  there were his typical give aways, but he's very far from being alone in that department. 

 

A for effort. 

F for production.  

 

Where as, Kane (especially), Chytil,  Lafrenière,  get F or Effort  and F for production.  At times Kreider and Zibanejad were very lackadaisical as was Tarasenko.  I guess you could say inconsistent effort. 

[Morphinity 2.0]

Bro are you trolling? There's no way you actually think that. 

[Flynn]

Panarin is a fabulous regular season hockey player. The playoffs are hard- not everyone can be Danny Briere or Claude Giroux (I have no idea why these were the first two players I thought of) and turn your game up in the post season.. 

Bread is sadly just a different player after game 82. Outside of his 2 playoff appearances in Columbus which were in line with his RS performance, he just doesn't seem to be built for the grind. He's more Nash than he is Mike Bossy, that's for sure. 

[Bugg]

36 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said:

The same people who want Panarin traded so badly will probably miss him when the team is lacking a 90-100 point player, who aren't exactly easy to come by. I wouldn't be shocked if he's moved, but I'm not expecting it. I'm really not expecting any huge trades involving our big guys. Number one, because it's difficult or near impossible, and two, they're finally going to give them a good coach to work under.

That is fair. There is value in Panarin's reg season contribution. Remains to be seen with his NMC where he would be willing to go, and how you might get any value. 

[Sharpshooter]

Yeah, he's definitely more of a regular season player. He does have 46 points in 57 career playoff games, which isn't really terrible. Last postseason people weren't too happy with him, and I get it to a degree, but he had 16 points in 20 games. Only six goals though, which as is with Panarin, you want him to shoot more. He needs to.

[FanaticsKnowBest]

I thought the effort was there from Bread, but you watch a clip from the regular season against [insert team] and watch the playoffs….………he has no time and space. He gets suffocated. He is not big enough to make that space or fast enough to create separation. Not his fault. That is just the playoffs. I do think he hesitates to shoot, as do many of his teammates who also have good shots. Exactly why Vatrano and Tarasenko are refreshing. BTW, I really liked Tarasenko’s effort on defense. Not saying he is Bergeron or anything, but it was better than expected. To me, Kane was just an empty spot out there. It was glaring. I know hindsight is 20/20, but ouch, it was exactly what I feared when they got him.

 

I saw Rick Nash mentioned on a post. That dude worked his butt off in the playoffs. He was totally snake bitten. No breaks went his way. Concussions took their toll on his game. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by FanaticsKnowBest

[BrooksBurner]

What does it say about Panarin that he has finished as a + player in the regular season every year in his career, but a - player in 5 out of 7 playoff appearances (-16 overall, -10 with the Rangers)?

 

This is the guy you trade or, at the very least, put in the backseat. He can’t be deferred to or be expected to drive anything anymore. Time to move on whether he’s on the team or not.

Edited May 3, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[FanaticsKnowBest]

Sorry for the additional post. I forgot to add this before. I heard someone make a good point yesterday about Panarin’s value. Without him in the regular season, they probably don’t even make the playoffs. You have to get into the playoffs first, before worrying about what to do when you get there. So he is very valuable. Maybe Buffalo and Ottawa are in if they have him. Of course, it doesn’t negate that he has not produced in the playoffs when needed most. I know he had the series winner against Pittsburgh, but that was pretty much it from him.

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Switch out Panarin with Gallant and you're doing the exact same thing.

 

Again - my emotions has nothing to do with this, not sure why you keep bringing that up. We're looking to hold people accountable, not "punish" them. If you think having a guy eat 11.5m on the cap and not impacting a 7-game series AT ALL is all fine and not a part of the problem then you're allowed to think that, but you got to allow others to not hold that same view.

 

That's exactly what we're doing. Getting the 11.5m guy that plays like a 3m guy when it matters the most off the team would help this team a lot. No, not "addition by subtraction", we're not saying he's useless. We're just saying he's paid waaaaay better than what he produces, and that's a big problem.

 

And yes I know that he's practically untradeable, but the conversation is still needed.

Ok I'm just going to quote this again and expand on what I was saying before.

 

Firstly, Panarin and Gallant aren't judged on the same scale or criteria so conflating the arguments is pointless.

 

Let's talk about the Vally graphic...And putting aside he uses his own criteria to measure this, so it's as made up a stat as anything from Dome Loosechicken, but I like Vally so I'll put value in it. What's the criteria? What does an "expected assist mean"? That needs to be outlined.

 

Secondly, why are there less for Panarin in the post season? Lots of factors, all the teams are "good", they are likely more focused on defense and details than in the regular season, etc. We know this to be true.

 

That said, what we also know to be true is that there's not a lot of structure in GGs game. So what's that mean, realistically? Too much thinking, not enough acting on instinct. Too much trying to read the play and not enough flow. I'd love to see that chart for Adam Fox, who's the best playmaker on D the Rangers have, because he's what I suspect...When it's not established/determined/taught/coached where a player should be in certain points of play, what happens? The guy with the puck has to look up and read the play, and it's constant. They can't just make a play because they "know" Where RW is going to be, or who's F1 vs F2. The players even acknowledged this. Trouba talked about the forecheck, it didn't come in waves, it was F1 in, Devils makes a play, F2 nowhere to be found. Vally also alluded to this on his pod with Staple.

 

What compounds this? Constant line changes. You think it's not a big deal to flip flop Cs or RWs but if Panarin plays with Tarsenko and then suddenly plays with Kane, or Kakko, then immediately Panarin can't depend on RW to be where RW should be because no one is telling RW where they should be! That's why this team at times looks like they met each other that morning, with no flow and no chemistry. That's why they suck 5v5. On the PP they get more time to make reads...Until they don't (Thanks Lindy for punching up the pressure on the PK).

 

This seems evident to me especially with Panarin because he thinks he can make a pass anywhere, and usually he can, with some time (enter a guy like Strome who plays a patient give and go style, not like Tro) but when the guy he think is going to be in the middle of the ice is at the far boards, that's a turnover because the pass is being forced, because Panarin is being pressured.

 

Stats to support? This was his first year on the Rangers with completely new linemates, and he had his worst GA/TKA ratio of his career, 36TK to 102GA. That doesn't just happen by accident and the league didn't just finally "catch on", he lost the people who kne whow to play with him and didn't have a system or structure to fall back on, no way to simplify his game.

[siddious]

25 minutes ago, FanaticsKnowBest said:

Sorry for the additional post. I forgot to add this before. I heard someone make a good point yesterday about Panarin’s value. Without him in the regular season, they probably don’t even make the playoffs. You have to get into the playoffs first, before worrying about what to do when you get there. So he is very valuable. Maybe Buffalo and Ottawa are in if they have him. Of course, it doesn’t negate that he has not produced in the playoffs when needed most. I know he had the series winner against Pittsburgh, but that was pretty much it from him.

Therein is the dilemma. You almost need another guy to supplement him in the playoffs. Theoretically they had that guy in tank, kane, Zib and Kreider. It was a failure all around. Can’t add anyone else either because of that $11mil price tag. Ill Never get why guys take such a high Contract knowing it hinders the success of the team. $9 mil is where this guy should be. 
 

i don’t think you get rid of Panarin. You signed him to that monster of a deal.. I think you find a way to get him going in the playoffs. Some tough love might be the way to go. 
 

 

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Morphinity 2.0 said:

Bro are you trolling? There's no way you actually think that. 

Not trolling.  Missed the net on glorious opportunities and was involved all over the ice. Did more than Kane, Lafrenière,  Chytil and even Miller offensively. I don't discount scoring chances like everyone else does. He wasn't stationary. He didn't shy away from contact. He was going into the corners, battling on the boards and was taking the puck to the middle of the ice. 

 

I'm not saying he played good. I'm saying he didn't exactly play bad or as bad as everyone is saying. To say he was invisible and did nothing is inaccurate and an emotional reaction.  I'd agree with saying he wasn't effective. 

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, siddious said:

Therein is the dilemma. You almost need another guy to supplement him in the playoffs. Theoretically they had that guy in tank, kane, Zib and Kreider. It was a failure all around. Can’t add anyone else either because of that $11mil price tag. Ill Never get why guys take such a high Contract knowing it hinders the success of the team. $9 mil is where this guy should be. 
 

i don’t think you get rid of Panarin. You signed him to that monster of a deal.. I think you find a way to get him going in the playoffs. Some tough love might be the way to go. 
 

 

Bingo, everyone wants to pin this on one guy. "He makes the most, he shouldn't need help", well Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl never made it out of round 1 without their team getting much deeper.

[Sod16]

Does anyone think that we're a cinch to make the playoffs without Bread?

[RichieNextel305]

Is it possible to foot the bill for a mental health coach for Zibanejad? I hate quoting Brooksie (sorry if you’re out there and we all know you are) but he said something in the Post yesterday that was accurate about him too. When things are going great, great. But when he is struggling, he seems to get so down on himself. He seems mentally fragile. The truth is he is the most talented player (him or Bread) on a team dripping with talent. I just wish he’d realize that and stop being so hard on himself in times where he struggles because I feel like it digs him into a hole of quick sand and then you get series like you just did from him.

[BrooksBurner]

Good for Kakko.

[Sharpshooter]

Hopefully whomever the next coach is, gives him those opportunities. He worked hard enough this year to earn it.

[RichieNextel305]

Friedman lays a lot of this on Panarin, who needs to be better. Also says the Quenneville chatter could stem from

the fact Panarin has had a lot of success under him. Which to me, makes little sense. Panarin has had success under every coach he’s played for. That isn’t any doubt. The doubt comes from his lackluster, lazy and horrid playoff play. Also says that at some point in the series, there was a screaming match that everyone heard; didn’t specify who it involved but sounded more coaches/management than players. But no clarification.

[RichieNextel305]

I can’t say I really disagree with what he said here. Two seasons with over 105+ points. One season where they were within an arms reach of going to the Finals. If we’re supposed to stand by our players for their regular season success even though it didn’t translate into playoff success, why does the coach fall after back to back solid campaigns?

 

I’m really torn here.

[Cash or Czech]

Because we've seen what it gets us. Two 7-game series against inferior goaltenders and injured stars where our innate talent gets us over the hill, or letdown 6/7 game series against teams that don't have more talent than us but are certainly better coached.