Puzzling Kaapo Kakko Scratch Clouds His Rangers Future

[josh]

3 hours ago, Sod16 said:

Uncle Larry with interesting discussion of what lack of an offer sheet for Kakko might mean (if anything).  If he were on schedule to become an impact player, it would certainly make sense for someone to sign him to a comparatively modest offer sheet, safe in the knowledge that the Rangers couldn't meet it.  Of course, offer sheets are rare and virtually taboo.  He's no Aho.  As a No. 2 overall, we would have hoped he would be after three years or at least on track to become a player of that stature.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/07/23/lack-of-kaapo-kakko-offer-sheet-not-all-good-news-for-rangers/

Stop reading Larry brooks bullshit. He literally has no information and his hockey takes are so outdated. No one would ever reach out to Larry with inside information.

 

he has no clue if there were offer sheets. And it requires Kakko to SIGN the offer sheet 

[Long live the King]

1 hour ago, rmc51 said:

 

Here's where I'm at. If Kakko is a good-ish 3rd liner for the next few years, then ok. He might fill a role on the team even if it's not the one we'd planned on, and he might still break out later as you've suggested. However, if the team is losing players better than him in the name of hoping and praying for him to be something he doesn't appear to be, I have a problem with that. The Rangers probably need to adjust their expectations for him. The team has lost a few pretty good players now in favor of the kids. They can't really afford to keep doing that during the rest of Shesterkin's contract and the current core's prime years. This past season was supposed to be a "prove you got it" sort of season for both Kakko and Chytil. Both disappointed, with a glimpse only really seen out of Chytil for a few playoff rounds.

 

Who are these few pretty good players thay were lost?

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, ThirtyONE said:

So, here's the deal. Players don't often become good until much later in their careers. Look at JT Miller for christ's sake. Do the we want the Rangers to remain patient, making use of Kakko on the 3rd line until he's possibly 25-27 before any sort of offensive explosion, or do we want them to dump him? 

 

Because we did this rebuild thing and so far, only one drafted 1st rounder is any good: K'Andre Miller. As an organization, we've already given up on Andersson (warranted or not) and we were this close to giving up on Kravstov (who could very well be the best offensive player they've drafted). Many fans want to move on from Chytil and it seems like Kakko is in people's crosshairs now as well.

 

Like, at what point are we gonna just let these guys be? I feel like we need to stop asking if players are living up to draft capital and ask if they're effective NHL players. Because as long as they're effective, they can remain lower in the lineup, make less money, and possibly break out at an unexpected time.

 

 

 

Lafreniere is good for the opportunity he has received.  31 even strength goals thru his 20 season is a tantalizing pointer towards exactly how good he could be if given a full opportunity with strong players alongside him.

 

You're 100% right that players often develop into good players and maybe even very good players later in their careers.  However the team that went through all the crap years early on generally does not benefit from their development in the end.  Zibanejad is a perfect example of this phenomenon.  Everybody knew he had talent but the Rangers got the benefit of it not the Senators.

[BrooksBurner]

19 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Who are these few pretty good players thay were lost?

Buchnevich, Strome, Copp. Kakko+Chytil combined is close enough to the cap hits those guys got, that any of them could have been worked in.

[josh]

26 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Buchnevich, Strome, Copp. Kakko+Chytil combined is close enough to the cap hits those guys got, that any of them could have been worked in.

they seemed to do just fine without Buchnevich. They couldn’t afford those guys and it has nothing to do with Kakko and Chytil. Same with McDonagh and Zucc. 
 

if those guys wanted to be here, they would be. They wanted money and can fuck off. 

[Sod16]

The thing with Kakko is that as a former No. 2 overall, he will command something of a premium, at least on his next contract.   We don't have the cap space to allow players who command a premium to develop very slowly.

 

For every one of these guys who is a late bloomer, there are three who never do develop if they don't appear on track after 3-4 years.  If you patiently wait on all such players, you will have too many ultimate busts on your roster at any given time.

[josh]

3 minutes ago, Sod16 said:

The thing with Kakko is that as a former No. 2 overall, he will command something of a premium, at least on his next contract.   We don't have the cap space to allow players who command a premium to develop very slowly.

 

For every one of these guys who is a late bloomer, there are three who never do develop if they don't appear on track after 3-4 years.  If you patiently wait on all such players, you will have too many ultimate busts on your roster at any given time.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/nolan-patrick
 

[BrooksBurner]

26 minutes ago, josh said:

they seemed to do just fine without Buchnevich. They couldn’t afford those guys and it has nothing to do with Kakko and Chytil. Same with McDonagh and Zucc. 
 

if those guys wanted to be here, they would be. They wanted money and can fuck off. 

I would say if they’re committing in the vicinity of $4.5M or more for Chytil and Kakko, it has a little something to do with then not being able to afford a $5-6M top 6 forward.

 

The combined cost will be even more next summer because either Chytil gets a raise or they have to go find a 3C who will almost definitely cost more than Chytil’s current $2.3M hit.

 

They have to produce. Plain and simple.

Edited July 24, 2022 by rmc51

[josh]

22 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

I would say if they’re committing in the vicinity of $4.5M or more for Chytil and Kakko, it has a little something to do with then not being able to afford a $5-6M top 6 forward.

 

The combined cost will be even more next summer because either Chytil gets a raise or they have to go find a 3C who will almost definitely cost more than Chytil’s current $2.3M hit.

 

They have to produce. Plain and simple.

Can’t ice a team of 7 players. 
 

Even if you could remove Chytil and Kakko for a $6m player, you have another roster hole to fill. So you are at 7m vs 3.3m. 

[The Dude]

6 hours ago, Sod16 said:

Uncle Larry with interesting discussion of what lack of an offer sheet for Kakko might mean (if anything).  If he were on schedule to become an impact player, it would certainly make sense for someone to sign him to a comparatively modest offer sheet, safe in the knowledge that the Rangers couldn't meet it.  Of course, offer sheets are rare and virtually taboo.  He's no Aho.  As a No. 2 overall, we would have hoped he would be after three years or at least on track to become a player of that stature.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/07/23/lack-of-kaapo-kakko-offer-sheet-not-all-good-news-for-rangers/

I think offer sheets are more for GMs who want to make a name for themselves or have a problem another GM. 

 

If Drury wasn't a well respected guy, I'd think a team would offer sheet Kakko. Seems to be in the good graces of his peers. 

 

That and maybe Kakko is a good dude and doesn't want to screw the team? 

 

I never understood how offer sheets weren't considered tampering. How does a GM of another team get in contact with the player or his agent without it being tampering. Or are RFAs just like UFAs? I'd think the team holding the rights to the player wouldn't want or be ok with teams poaching their players..

 

And there's no way Larry isn't reading here. Ain't nobody else talking about Hunts spot on the team.  Right?

Edited July 24, 2022 by The Dude

[Br4d]

If you're going to put out an offer sheet you have to be pretty sure the guy you are offering it to is worth it.

 

An offer sheet for Kakko on any other basis just pisses off the Rangers and risks a tit-for-tat at some point for somebody who might actually be worth an offer.

 

 

[The Dude]

1 hour ago, Sod16 said:

The thing with Kakko is that as a former No. 2 overall, he will command something of a premium, at least on his next contract.   We don't have the cap space to allow players who command a premium to develop very slowly.

 

For every one of these guys who is a late bloomer, there are three who never do develop if they don't appear on track after 3-4 years.  If you patiently wait on all such players, you will have too many ultimate busts on your roster at any given time.

The thing with Kakko is, he as drafted as a scorer and the team decided to convert him to a defensive specialist before he could get his scoring going at this level. 

 

Now they expect him to just flip a switch and score with 3rd line minutes or in a board working type role with a player who wants the puck on his own stick most of the time.

 

I feel like the Rangers haven't been using Kakko to the best of his abilities in a big enough role. I really wanted the kid line to be the 2nd line, so they would stop stalling on giving them all the icetime they need,  to be the players we want them to be. 

 

Hopefully Gallant gives the 3rd line more minutes this season. 

[josh]

10 minutes ago, The Dude said:

The thing with Kakko is, he as drafted as a scorer and the team decided to convert him to a defensive specialist before he could get his scoring going at this level. 

 

Now they expect him to just flip a switch and score with 3rd line minutes or in a board working type role with a player who wants the puck on his own stick most of the time.

 

I feel like the Rangers haven't been using Kakko to the best of his abilities in a big enough role. I really wanted the kid line to be the 2nd line, so they would stop stalling on giving them all the icetime they need,  to be the players we want them to be. 

 

Hopefully Gallant gives the 3rd line more minutes this season. 

As I’ve said a million times - put players in a place to be successful.

 

they haven’t, and it’s shown. 

[BrooksBurner]

20 minutes ago, josh said:

Can’t ice a team of 7 players. 
 

Even if you could remove Chytil and Kakko for a $6m player, you have another roster hole to fill. So you are at 7m vs 3.3m. 

Chytil + Kakko = ~4.6.

Strome at 5 + ELC = 5.925

 

That example costs ~$1.325M more (Copp scenario another 625k), which they could have made work. Instead, they’ve gone with the kids and hope. Not that I necessarily disagree with that decision, but guys like Strome and Copp are actual top 6 players and way better than either of those guys right now.

[Br4d]

15 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Chytil + Kakko = ~4.6.

Strome at 5 + ELC = 5.925

 

That example costs ~$1.325M more (Copp scenario another 625k), which they could have made work. Instead, they’ve gone with the kids and hope. Not that I necessarily disagree with that decision, but guys like Strome and Copp are actual top 6 players and way better than either of those guys right now.

 

This is the dilemma the Rangers face right now.  Some of the kids haven't played well enough to date.  The team as a whole has been just a bit lacking except for Shesterkin and the vets on the powerplay.  However when you look at where the problem lies it is clear that it is in the missing production out of the young players.  Kakko and Chytil haven't contributed enough for the minutes and match ups they have seen.  Lafreniere has been good but not given enough of a role nor with the right support for his play to be a decisive factor for the team.

 

So last year the Rangers made some deals at the trade deadline and fleshed out the top 6 to cover for the young guys who weren't progressing fast enough.  This year they may have to do the same.  At some point soon they're either going to have to get production across the board or stop patching every season and move on.

 

The opportunity cost of keeping Kakko if he does not advance is likely to be another 1st round pick at the deadline.  You can only do this for so long before the window closes inch by inch and the Rangers never had their best opportunity at a Cup.

[Pete]

47 minutes ago, josh said:

As I’ve said a million times - put players in a place to be successful.

 

they haven’t, and it’s shown. 

This I agree with, but they also haven't made him a defensive specialist either... They're not asking him to be Jay Pandolfo or even PK. 

 

Also tangential to this... Kakko hasn't played 2 full seasons worth of games. This isn't a normal "year 3". He's had his seasons cut short by COVID and this year some injuries. He hasn't been able to get into a flow. 

 

And offer sheets don't work. Montreal didn't get Aho and the Canes wound up paying a 4th liner 6M last year. Weber didn't go to Philly or wherever. 

 

Probably the reason KK doesn't have one... GMs don't offer them. 

 

[BrooksBurner]

10 minutes ago, Pete said:

This I agree with, but they also haven't made him a defensive specialist either... They're not asking him to be Jay Pandolfo or even PK. 

 

Also tangential to this... Kakko hasn't played 2 full seasons worth of games. This isn't a normal "year 3". He's had his seasons cut short by COVID and this year some injuries. He hasn't been able to get into a flow. 

 

And offer sheets don't work. Montreal didn't get Aho and the Canes wound up paying a 4th liner 6M last year. Weber didn't go to Philly or wherever. 

 

Probably the reason KK doesn't have one... GMs don't offer them. 

 

The irony here being that Kotkaniemi produced a better year than Kakko ever has, so if he’s a 4th liner what does that make Kakko? He also dealt with the same Covid years that Kakko did.

 

Anyway, the Canes went after Kotkaniemi out of spite, not because he was really worthy of it. It looks like an err in judgement at the moment, but it still may work out in their favor.

Edited July 25, 2022 by rmc51

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

The irony here being that Kotkaniemi produced a better year than Kakko ever has, so if he’s a 4th liner what does that make Kakko? He also dealt with the same Covid years that Kakkp did.

They were paying him $6 million dollars to not be good enough to play in the top nine. It's not a comparison to Kakko, it's a reference to an offer sheet backfiring. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Pete

[josh]

4 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

The irony here being that Kotkaniemi produced a better year than Kakko ever has, so if he’s a 4th liner what does that make Kakko? He also dealt with the same Covid years that Kakko did.

 

Anyway, the Canes went after Kotkaniemi out of spite, not because he was really worthy of it. It looks like an err in judgement at the moment, but it still may work out in their favor.

He was 2 seasons removed from that “better” season when offer sheeted

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, josh said:

He was 2 seasons removed from that “better” season when offer sheeted

What does that matter? He’s done it. He produced more than Kakko last season too, apparently as a 4th liner.

[josh]

Lol what the hell does the season after an offer sheet have to do with anything? 

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

What does that matter? He’s done it. He produced more than Kakko last season too, apparently as a 4th liner.

 

Just now, josh said:

Lol what the hell does the season after an offer sheet have to do with anything? 

None of it matters. 

 

I was using him as a proof point that offer sheets backfire. Comparing the players isn't relevant this particular conversation. 

 

Regardless of who the better player is, they were paying him $6 million dollars to play on their fourth line. I don't think anyone can call that an offer sheet success story. 

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

They were paying him $6 million dollars to not be good enough to play in the top nine. It's not a comparison to Kakko, it's a reference to an offer sheet backfiring. 

Sure, not sure why that invalidates what I said. Talking down Kotkaniemi as a 4th liner while pulling out the excuses for Kakko sucking dog shit is prime rosy Rangers fan mentality.

[BrooksBurner]

7 minutes ago, josh said:

Lol what the hell does the season after an offer sheet have to do with anything? 

Ask Pete. He brought Kotkaniemi up and talked about his season playing on Carolina’s 4th line.

[Sod16]

57 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

This is the dilemma the Rangers face right now.  Some of the kids haven't played well enough to date.  The team as a whole has been just a bit lacking except for Shesterkin and the vets on the powerplay.  However when you look at where the problem lies it is clear that it is in the missing production out of the young players.  Kakko and Chytil haven't contributed enough for the minutes and match ups they have seen.  Lafreniere has been good but not given enough of a role nor with the right support for his play to be a decisive factor for the team.

 

So last year the Rangers made some deals at the trade deadline and fleshed out the top 6 to cover for the young guys who weren't progressing fast enough.  This year they may have to do the same.  At some point soon they're either going to have to get production across the board or stop patching every season and move on.

 

The opportunity cost of keeping Kakko if he does not advance is likely to be another 1st round pick at the deadline.  You can only do this for so long before the window closes inch by inch and the Rangers never had their best opportunity at a Cup.

These are particularly apt observations.  In addition to younger players not developing, you have the problem of possible cap compelled dumps in the future, like Lindgren (when he's due a raise up to $5m) and Trouba (to clear the way for a Sheshy reup, among other things).  If younger guys aren't stepping up and proven guys have to be dumped, you are on a fast track to non-contention.