Gorton: Team Lacked Toughness and Grit; Will Be Addressed

[Giacomin]

What trade partners at the deadline were going to give up grit and toughness guys, that are actually worth anything, when gearing up for a playoff run? He brought in Spooner and Names because they were available and have value. Between those 2, Hayes, Zucc, and Kreider, I bet at least two are traded in the off season.

 

I was thinking the same, Gorton was focused on asset mgmt in making those deals, even if there are things to like about each player, if they stay Rangers. Except I don't think Kreids is going anywhere. He's a top 6 power forward who fits our need for speed and grit. He also seemed to have another light bulb go off, after his surgery.

 

My guess is one of Zuc, Spooner or Names (outside shot of Vesey, but he could be a good grit/skill project for our next coach) will be moved to either fill another need or upgrade one of our draft picks. Or one or more, plus picks/prospects could be packaged for a solid youngish dman, if the opportunity presents itself. I think we'll be looking and turning over rocks. Which is good. Moving up to #4 or #5 to nab Tkachuk would be a good way to address this issue too.

 

One last comment (trying to mostly look forward), but this is the reason I was reluctant to move Miller. He has grit and skill and any new coach would make a big difference with guys like Miller and Vesey and Buch. And Hayes for different reasons. Miller and Vesey particularly. However, I assume Mikey was on point about mgmt's perception that he was too much of a douche or losing his commitment or whatever the attitude issue. Yet, I am not convinced they were right that he was too far gone. We'll see. Water under the bridge now. Though we still should have gotten one of the Saulte Ste. Marie forwards instead of the stupid conditional 2019 2nd. Credit to Yzerman.

[josh]

For sure.

 

Rick Nash used to walk away from the extra stuff all the time.

 

but again, he should.

We dont need him mucking it up, with his PK abilities, and his fragile brain - he should not be involved.

 

He should have teammates that are cognizant of this.

 

I'm a tiny ass dude, but if someone was doing that to my injured player, star player, important player - I'm in the middle.

We never saw this.

[Morphinity 2.0]

That's not entirely AV though.

 

What AV talked about was guys like Kreider and Smith getting "loose" and taking dumb penalties. I've also bitched when Zuccarello tries his Avery impression - the problem being, these guys arent Avery, and when they play with just "grit", they forget the game and are a detriment to the team.

 

But if you have a coach saying, "be careful" followed by a Captain saying "stop it guys", you end up with a bunch of pussies. There is a small line, and it takes a great mind to understand it. Unfortunately, leadership wanted people to stay back, and they stayed too far behind the line.

 

They are push overs. The entire season - way too easy to play against.

 

I don't know. I can't point to anything specific because it would take too much time, but I recall, especially early in his tenure, him making lots of mentions about not getting caught up in after the whistle stuff. Surely leadership was culpable, but I think the coaching staff molds the leadership to an extent.

 

Personally, I can sort of understand the mindset - you don't want your team taking stupid penalties - but I don't think it should be absolute, as we saw it was.

[josh]

I don't know. I can't point to anything specific because it would take too much time, but I recall, especially early in his tenure, him making lots of mentions about not getting caught up in after the whistle stuff. Surely leadership was culpable, but I think the coaching staff molds the leadership to an extent.

 

Personally, I can sort of understand the mindset - you don't want your team taking stupid penalties - but I don't think it should be absolute, as we saw it was.

 

There is a difference between "not getting caught up" and being a bitch.

 

 

I dont think it was an absolute. The one time we heard someone complain was when Smith got in a terribly timed fight, got beat up, lost the momentum, and lost the lead. A perfect example of when "not to get caught up".

There were plenty of instances in the playoffs last year, when they were distracted by Gallagher and then fucking Neil. They completely forgot how to play hockey and were acting like mad 8 year olds. There is a huge difference.

[Scott]

Without changing a whole bunch of parts it doesn't matter who coaches this team, their just baby shit soft. You can't teach guys to hit with a purpose, to not shy away from the chance to drill somebody cleanly. The majority of these guys won't face wash for fear of being punched in the face. It's a team full of purse carrying cardholders. The two up and coming kids that we're counting on fit right in. The look like they've seen a ghost.

[josh]

Without changing a whole bunch of parts it doesn't matter who coaches this team, their just baby shit soft. You can't teach guys to hit with a purpose, to not shy away from the chance to drill somebody cleanly. The majority of these guys won't face wash for fear of being punched in the face. It's a team full of purse carrying cardholders. The two up and coming kids that we're counting on fit right in. The look like they've seen a ghost.

 

its a penalty, now.

 

 

willingness - didnt have it.

Takes 1 player to change the attitude and atmosphere of the lockerroom.

[Giacomin]

That's not entirely AV though.

 

What AV talked about was guys like Kreider and Smith getting "loose" and taking dumb penalties. I've also bitched when Zuccarello tries his Avery impression - the problem being, these guys arent Avery, and when they play with just "grit", they forget the game and are a detriment to the team.

 

But if you have a coach saying, "be careful" followed by a Captain saying "stop it guys", you end up with a bunch of pussies. There is a small line, and it takes a great mind to understand it. Unfortunately, leadership wanted people to stay back, and they stayed too far behind the line.

 

They are push overs. The entire season - way too easy to play against.

 

Some good points by you and Gravesy, but one point I disagree with is having the coach and capt send mixed messages. This is on AV, not McD.

 

I think it is a little simpler. It was always about reducing dumb penalties, retaliatory or O zone penalties and gaining the advantage. However, as usual AV didn't have perspective and was closer to dogmatic than situational. During a long season the team needs to stand up for each other in a big way. Not stupid shit like slashing a guy well after a clean hard check, but for cheap shots or if a team takes the "hit the goalie" approach. Everyone scouts, and if the Jets or Kings or Caps think they are going to run you out of the building you may have an issue.

 

Situational - In a game 1 or an early playoff game down 3 goals, it is time to deliver some pain and retaliation for earlier transgressions. Anyone who watched the games last night, was reminded how tough the checking becomes this time of year. Yet, it is also critical in the playoffs to make an overly physical team pay, by not taking the retaliatory penalties but taking the PP. If they are running our dmen deep every shift, be a fast team and move the puck and create more odd man rushes.

[Puck Head]

A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. It?s not about being tough, it?s about being too easy to play against.

 

Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.

 

 

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[Giacomin]

I don't know. I can't point to anything specific because it would take too much time, but I recall, especially early in his tenure, him making lots of mentions about not getting caught up in after the whistle stuff. Surely leadership was culpable, but I think the coaching staff molds the leadership to an extent.

 

Personally, I can sort of understand the mindset - you don't want your team taking stupid penalties - but I don't think it should be absolute, as we saw it was.

 

^^^ this. He became dogmatic and predictable. One of his bad tendencies. I think AV realizes a coach must grow and evolve, but he too stills falls back to old habits. He was an old school coach who adjusted after the Bruins taught him a few lessons, but then he'd veer back to the same ole. His idea of toughness is to be able to ice Tanner Glass or McLoud when things get rough. That does not make a tough team.

[Giacomin]

A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. It’s not about being tough, it’s about being too easy to play against.

 

Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.

 

Absolutely. He never distinguished mistakes due to hard play and inexperience or bad timing from stupid mistakes. All "unnecessary" penalties seem to be grouped into the same bag. And if the party was a younger player, the reins get pulled in.

[josh]

A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. It’s not about being tough, it’s about being too easy to play against.

 

Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.

 

 

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The vagina of a captain made it 100x worse.

[Scott]

A lot of this attitude comes directly from AV. It’s not about being tough, it’s about being too easy to play against.

 

Too many players and prospects i saw play with a edge only to get neutered by AV and his culture.

 

 

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To me playing tough is the same exact things as being hard to play against. I don't care who the coach is a guy like Hayes who has the size will never to be tough to play against. There's a long list of those guys currently on this roster. Only way a coach changes that is by swapping out bodies not with X's and O's. I don't see a ton of untapped potential of being hard to play against with the core that is here right now.

[Fatfrancesa]

Guy plays with a broken ankle and he’s a giant vagina? Ok.

[josh]

Guy plays with a broken ankle and he’s a giant vagina? Ok.

 

That’s not what we are talking about, but got for it.

[CBrowningPI]

That?s not what we are talking about, but got for it.

Do you remember when McD was hit and he bends over with his boo-boo face and he's still moving, so he slams head first into the boards? Priceless.

 

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[Puck Head]

Do you remember when McD was hit and he bends over with his boo-boo face and he's still moving, so he slams head first into the boards? Priceless.

 

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Wtf is a boo boo face?

 

 

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[Giacomin]

Guy plays with a broken ankle and he’s a giant vagina? Ok.

 

That's tough. Not sure why that is not considered hard to play against. It's the same for the guy who takes endless punishment in front of the net. That takes toughness. Being strong on your skates like Kreider or even Miller or Ovechkin is tough. Hitting them hurts. Guys playing hurt are tough too. Fatigue and a punch in the nose makes cowards of most.

 

Let's be reasonable and understand these days it is not always about delivering that crushing cross check (which they should officiate out of hockey) or the board crashing hits. Vegas was tough last night. Just standing up to the Kings crap and then outskating them. Keeping them from mounting enough offensive attacks by using speed to outplay their physical bottom 6. And they strategically targeted Drew, as the place to finish their checks. Smart, fast and tough. Though not big.

[Giacomin]

Conversely, Minny got caught up playing the Jets game. Minny was more "tough" and "harder to play against" than Vegas. Yet, the Jets had control, gave up two quickies in the 3rd to fall behind and then proceeded to regain control with 15 straight shots on goal. It was a tough checking game and Minn will not be able to sustain that gameplan.

 

Who here compared Schiefele to Hayes. :rofl:

[Giacomin]

its a penalty, now.

 

 

willingness - didnt have it.

Takes 1 player to change the attitude and atmosphere of the lockerroom.

 

That player has to be good and so does the team. He has to command respect and have the right personality Josh Manson? Brady Tkachuk? Who is your guy? I'm not talking Captain specifically. BTW, Blake Wheeler makes for a good captain. Fun game yesterday.

[josh]

That player has to be good and so does the team. He has to command respect and have the right personality Josh Manson? Brady Tkachuk? Who is your guy? I'm not talking Captain specifically. BTW, Blake Wheeler makes for a good captain. Fun game yesterday.

 

Will have to depend on the coach and the system. And I’d prefer a leader who demands willingness out of his players as opposed to a physical player (strictly).

 

This season, I wanted Hartnell in free agency. Even mentioned Iginla has a weak but potential choice. Those are based off a coach-vet relationship. And we were looking at bottom 6 guys.

Heading into the season in which we are also looking for a coach, the potential opportunity ions will be different.

[Scott]

I think the challenge and gap is much bigger than one player's ability to change the hard to play against level from within the locker room. Too many guys carrying purses out onto the ice. The top tier guys that have the ability to reshape basically the way an entire team plays aren't readily available. I don't think Taveras or Kovalchuk would make this team any tougher to play against then they are now. Kovalchuk needs road signs pointing to the defensive zone. There's so much that needs to be fixed here it will be interesting to see how much they can accomplish next season.

[Giacomin]

Will have to depend on the coach and the system. And I’d prefer a leader who demands willingness out of his players as opposed to a physical player (strictly).

 

This season, I wanted Hartnell in free agency. Even mentioned Iginla has a weak but potential choice. Those are based off a coach-vet relationship. And we were looking at bottom 6 guys.

Heading into the season in which we are also looking for a coach, the potential opportunity ions will be different.

 

I feel ya. It is why I want toughness on my first pair. On the ice for 23 minutes leading by example. I don't need the offensive dynamo next to Skjei, Manson would give us enough. Add his mobility, great attitude, teammates love him, solid defender and we have your guy. Kreider on a line with Tkachuk provides many more minutes of non-pussy hockey. There are others out there, but they are a rare breed.

 

I figured you for a Wayne Simmonds type.

[Giacomin]

I think the challenge and gap is much bigger than one player's ability to change the hard to play against level from within the locker room. Too many guys carrying purses out onto the ice. The top tier guys that have the ability to reshape basically the way an entire team plays aren't readily available. I don't think Taveras or Kovalchuk would make this team any tougher to play against then they are now. Kovalchuk needs road signs pointing to the defensive zone. There's so much that needs to be fixed here it will be interesting to see how much they can accomplish next season.

 

Ha ha, funny post and true. I fear they are not the answer. More new blood, a new coach, new culture, more hunger and guys liking each other again with one agenda. We needed to refresh the room and change the music.

 

Plus a Manson or Trouba, then a Tkachuk wouldn't hurt.

[josh]

I feel ya. It is why I want toughness on my first pair. On the ice for 23 minutes leading by example. I don't need the offensive dynamo next to Skjei, Manson would give us enough. Add his mobility, great attitude, teammates love him, solid defender and we have your guy. Kreider on a line with Tkachuk provides many more minutes of non-pussy hockey. There are others out there, but they are a rare breed.

 

I figured you for a Wayne Simmonds type.

I like him. He brings the toughness, not necessarily the leadership, though.

 

I really think the player will have to complement the coach - the opposite of the Av + McDonagh influence on the team in this aspect.

 

AV isn’t a hoo-rah Guy, so we needed one in the lockerroom. Not sure what the future holds, but I imagine the front office will make a necessary move. Hell, get the right coach, brining in the right mindset, and it could be a guy like Andersson that gets the guys going, similar to Landeskog.

 

If you make it to the NHL, you are tough enough. Just need them to play that way,

I want a mentality more than a physical force. I’m open to how we get that.

[Phil]

The vagina of a captain made it 100x worse.

 

Guy plays with a broken ankle and he?s a giant vagina? Ok.

 

That?s not what we are talking about, but got for it.

 

Sidebar -- isn't it funny that the toughest organ on the planet?one that's literally births full human babies?is used to signify weakness?

 

Ironically, we've got this completely backwards. We should be calling these guys balls. You know, the things that with the lightest flick, send us to our knees in pain?

 

 

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