Gorton: Team Lacked Toughness and Grit; Will Be Addressed

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

That's debatable and it certainly wouldn't be 7th overall.

 

No, thats not even debatable. Look at the link I sent. If you find 30 players there better then Stepan I will never watch hockey again.

 

It is debatable if he would go top 10, he 100% would go 1st round in a redraft.

 

No? Kopitar at 11. Giroux at 20 something.

 

okey, happend twice. Franchise player or bust for Lias then.

[Pete]

No, thats not even debatable. Look at the link I sent. If you find 30 players there better then Stepan I will never watch hockey again.

 

It is debatable if he would go top 10, he 100% would go 1st round in a redraft.

 

 

 

okey, happend twice. Franchise player or bust for Lias then.

I really don't care about the redraft. He's not a top 10 pick in any draft.

 

Yes it only ever happened twice. You're so right.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Provorov, Fleury, Nurse, Dumba, Scheifele, Skinner, Kadri, Wilson, Voracek, Okposo, Skille

 

Thats every 7th OA pick between 2005-2015. Scheifele and Voracek are elite level players. Kadri, Skinner, Okposo, Dumba are around Stepan's level. Provorov is still young and the rest I would call busts.

 

So out of 11 picks, 2 better then Step, 4-5 around his level, 4-5 are worse players, but still you would be mad if Lias turned out to be on Stepan's level? We picked 7OA, not 1st.

 

Everyone wants a franchise player, but we cant expect to get one just because we drafted 7OA once. Look how many 1st OA's Oilers needed before they found one (now they got two).

[Pete]

Curious why you wouldn't list the top centers picked later than #10...

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Because we're talking about what we could expect out of Lias, and that you was dissapointed by people comparing him to Stepan because you expect more of a 7OA. When in fact Stepan would be among the better players picked at 7OA the last decade.

 

We could talk on and on about better players picked later than #10 because there is hundreds of late bloomers, but we could also find players picked ahead (or around) #7 that are busts. We still have no idea how Lias turns out, so that discussion will just be pointless either way.

 

Im discussing that if Lias turns out like Stepan we should be fine with that. Not the best we could hope for obviously, but still a really good player to get at #7OA.

[Pete]

Because we're talking about what we could expect out of Lias, and that you was dissapointed by people comparing him to Stepan because you expect more of a 7OA. When in fact Stepan would be among the better players picked at 7OA the last decade.

 

We could talk on and on about better players picked later than #10 because there is hundreds of late bloomers, but we could also find players picked ahead (or around) #7 that are busts. We still have no idea how Lias turns out, so that discussion will just be pointless either way.

 

Im discussing that if Lias turns out like Stepan we should be fine with that. Not the best we could hope for obviously, but still a really good player to get at #7OA.

 

Let's not use other team's swings and misses as a barometer of what a 7OA should be. Comparing the #7 picks over the last decade is about as arbitrary as it gets. Strength on draft, team they are on, who they have to play behind all come into play.

 

If you're drafting a 50 point forward who never scored 30 goals with the #7, I think you fucked up. Stepan is not a top 10 pick in any draft unless it's a house league.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Let's not use other team's swings and misses as a barometer of what a 7OA should be. Comparing the #7 picks over the last decade is about as arbitrary as it gets. Strength on draft, team they are on, who they have to play behind all come into play.

 

If you're drafting a 50 point forward who never scored 30 goals with the #7, I think you fucked up. Stepan is not a top 10 pick in any draft unless it's a house league.

 

Then what should we use as a barometer of what a 7OA is if we cant use actually 7OA picked players? Your idea?

 

I've listed 11 players gone 7OA and only 2 are definitely better players than Stepan. So you actually expect Rangers to pick better than 80% of the other teams thats recently picked 7OA? Thats tough.

 

Im just trying to put things into perspective here. Yes we should expect a good player when we first get a 7OA pick, we haven't had one since forever so we want to hit the jackpot with it. BUT we have to look at other teams in previous years to see what a 7OA actually IS. Even so high as 7OA there is no guarantee of getting a NHL caliber player, especially not a star.

 

And Stepan is a 55+ point player, really good in all zones, playes big minutes against top lines/players and PK. Just calling him a "50 point forward who never scored 30 goals" is harsh.

[Pete]

Then what should we use as a barometer of what a 7OA is if we cant use actually 7OA picked players? Your idea?

 

I've listed 11 players gone 7OA and only 2 are definitely better players than Stepan. So you actually expect Rangers to pick better than 80% of the other teams thats recently picked 7OA? Thats tough.

 

Im just trying to put things into perspective here. Yes we should expect a good player when we first get a 7OA pick, we haven't had one since forever so we want to hit the jackpot with it. BUT we have to look at other teams in previous years to see what a 7OA actually IS. Even so high as 7OA there is no guarantee of getting a NHL caliber player, especially not a star.

 

And Stepan is a 55+ point player, really good in all zones, playes big minutes against top lines/players and PK. Just calling him a "50 point forward who never scored 30 goals" is harsh.

 

All I'm saying is, this:

Cant expect a franchise center at 7th overall.

 

Isn't true.

[josh]

I dont think he projects to be a franchise center, or a number 1C, nor did he prior to the pick, to put those expectations on him seems a bit unfair.

 

I'd love to draft franchise players with every pick, and yes, the better the pick (not player) the higher the expectations, probability, etc etc.

 

It seems like you dont like him because management took him at 7. It's not like he was Crosby - lighting it up, or a Tavares trending towards being the next Gretzky. If a guy completely fell off, or mailed it in, ddint train, didnt improve - sure. I think this is a different situation.

[Fatfrancesa]

There aren’t 10 or 15 players better in Stepans draft year and certainly not 30. To say he’s not a top 10 pick in that draft is splitting hairs because at worst he’s in the top 15. Expectations was there were better players drafted before him making him a second round pick. Reality proved that false because 13 years later his career is better than all but maybe 10 guys from that draft.

 

I do think lias won’t be as good as Stepan and I do think in the end lias will disappoint if your expecting a top line center, even a top 6 center. Lias will be a good productice player but individual expectations will determine your happiness with the pick. Remember the rangers went safe with the pick rather than risk a boom or bust. In a redraft right now Lias probably drops into the 20s.

[Vodka Drunkenski]

I don't know what we are all worried about, he's going to be the next Zetterberg.

[Pete]

I dont think he projects to be a franchise center, or a number 1C, nor did he prior to the pick, to put those expectations on him seems a bit unfair.

 

I'd love to draft franchise players with every pick, and yes, the better the pick (not player) the higher the expectations, probability, etc etc.

 

It seems like you dont like him because management took him at 7. It's not like he was Crosby - lighting it up, or a Tavares trending towards being the next Gretzky. If a guy completely fell off, or mailed it in, ddint train, didnt improve - sure. I think this is a different situation.

 

I have no feelings on him at all. It's not a matter of like or dislike. It's a matter of them (yet again) going off the board and [potentially] not getting appropriate value for the draft position.

[Pete]

There aren’t 10 or 15 players better in Stepans draft year and certainly not 30. To say he’s not a top 10 pick in that draft is splitting hairs because at worst he’s in the top 15. Expectations was there were better players drafted before him making him a second round pick. Reality proved that false because 13 years later his career is better than all but maybe 10 guys from that draft.

 

I do think loss won’t be as good as Stepan and I do think in the end lias will disappoint if your expecting a top line center, even a top 6 center. Lisa will be a good productice player but individual expectations will determine your happiness with the pick. Remember the rangers went safe with the pick rather than risk a boom or bust. In a redraft right now kiss probably drops into the 20s.

 

Manny Malhotra was a good, productive player. Think he was drafted at #6, IIRC. No time to look, now.

 

If Lias is Malhotra, we got a problem.

[Fatfrancesa]

Totally agree. However if the draft is weak then you can’t expect the rangers to draft somebody who isn’t there. If there is big number of players drafted after him who become better players then it’s bad. If there isn’t then it’s just a bad draft. You can’t make good out of horseshit. That said it already looks like the rangers drafted poorly on him but hit a home run on chytil.

 

The comparison to Stepan doesn’t make sense though. Stepan in a redraft would move up 30 spots or so.

[Pete]

Totally agree. However if the draft is weak then you can’t expect the rangers to draft somebody who isn’t there. If there is big number of players drafted after him who become better players then it’s bad. If there isn’t then it’s just a bad draft. You can’t make good out of horseshit. That said it already looks like the rangers drafted poorly on him but hit a home run on chytil.

 

The comparison to Stepan doesn’t make sense though. Stepan in a redraft would move up 30 spots or so.

 

Everyone is hung up on Stepan because he was mentioned by a writer as a comparable player. It's really irrelevant how far he would have moved up if you re-drafted his class. he wasn't getting take with a top 10 pick in any draft, certainly not at 7th overall.

[Puck Head]

That's debatable and it certainly wouldn't be 7th overall.

 

Of course it?s debatable, but so is if Gretzky was more talented than Brandon Prust.

 

I?m pretty confident than Stepan would have been a 1st round pick.

 

Who did we pick in the 1st?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

[Puck Head]

NHL.com had Stepan at 8 in a redraft

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/2008-re-draft-has-stamkos-still-on-top/c-675472

 

TSN has him at 10 in a redraft

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/2008-nhl-draft-re-top-10-picks-go-today/

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

[josh]

Of course it?s debatable, but so is if Gretzky was more talented than Brandon Prust.

 

I?m pretty confident than Stepan would have been a 1st round pick.

 

Who did we pick in the 1st?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

 

Some guy that failed to meet expectations.

 

 

:popcorn:

[josh]

NHL.com had Stepan at 8 in a redraft

 

https://www.nhl.com/news/2008-re-draft-has-stamkos-still-on-top/c-675472

 

TSN has him at 10 in a redraft

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/2008-nhl-draft-re-top-10-picks-go-today/

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

 

Again, like Pete said, ideally you hope to get a bit more than a Stepan (and we've found similar guys in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds) in the first round, and especially in the top 10.

 

Taking Stepan in the 1st round wouldnt necessarily make it a good pick either. Its a good 2nd round pick, 1st round... I wish we'd get more bang for our buck.

 

 

 

7th is the highest we drafted in along time... so we'd want to see one of the best players we've drafted in a long time.

 

I can understand his view. I'm not sour on Andersson, though.

[Respecttheblue]

Reminds me of Callahan.

 

Could be that #24 Lias is wearing.

 

Callie was a wee bit more petite though. On the occasional occasion, he even had quasi-saucy mitts (remember Torts saying one day he could see Callahan scoring 30 goals ? he only missed by 1, 29 in 2011-12), and a comparatively saucy bum that was adept at butting the puck over the line in reverse gear. You remember all those oblique angle shots he used to squeeze between the goalie and the post? But give him a shot from the slot and it was going wide? Chemistry with Dubinsky was a joy at times.

 

OK nostalgia trip over.

 

I hope Lias exceeds the Callahan factor, but I honestly don't know what to expect from what we've seen NHL-wise just yet.

 

I will now recede into my burrow and let the serious conversations continue.

[Pete]

Again, like Pete said, ideally you hope to get a bit more than a Stepan (and we've found similar guys in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds) in the first round, and especially in the top 10.

 

Taking Stepan in the 1st round wouldnt necessarily make it a good pick either. Its a good 2nd round pick, 1st round... I wish we'd get more bang for our buck.

 

 

 

7th is the highest we drafted in along time... so we'd want to see one of the best players we've drafted in a long time.

 

I can understand his view. I'm not sour on Andersson, though.

Too early to be sour on him, for sure.

 

Thanks for being open minded and seeing the point.

 

People are too caught up in a potential slieght to Stepan and missing it.

[CBrowningPI]

NHL network had a scout on, he talked about a kid named Kevin Bahl. A, 6'6", defenseman who may move from a 2nd rndr to 1st if he has a good post season. I didn't catch where he plays but damn, he's a big boy. Supposed to be a good skater.

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk

[Giacomin]

Could be that #24 Lias is wearing.

 

Callie was a wee bit more petite though. On the occasional occasion, he even had quasi-saucy mitts (remember Torts saying one day he could see Callahan scoring 30 goals ? he only missed by 1, 29 in 2011-12), and a comparatively saucy bum that was adept at butting the puck over the line in reverse gear. You remember all those oblique angle shots he used to squeeze between the goalie and the post? But give him a shot from the slot and it was going wide? Chemistry with Dubinsky was a joy at times.

 

OK nostalgia trip over.

 

I hope Lias exceeds the Callahan factor, but I honestly don't know what to expect from what we've seen NHL-wise just yet.

 

I will now recede into my burrow and let the serious conversations continue.

 

Lias is a completely unfinished product and still hard to project accurately. It is especially the case since we need to see what he can do to make significant improvements on his skating and strength. I expect he will continue to make strides in seeing the game, anticipation and defense. That should be a given based on his desire, hockey sense and character. How far he can take his game really depends on how much his skating, strength, core and skills progress in the next few years.

 

He had a busy busy year for a baby. He did more than fine. There is no way I'd take him 7 now, with who was on the board, but that doesn't matter. What matters is players his age have made the leap in the skating and strength department given time to mature and train. Will he improve only marginally or will he make an important leap?

[Rangers4Life]

When is the draft lottery?

[josh]

Saturday?