[friedman] Rangers Should Look at Options on UFAs, May Be Willing to Listen on Zucc, McD

[Fatfrancesa]

Q: Rick Nash, Michael Grabner, Conner mcdavid and Austin Matthews value to the rangers next year.

 

A: Zero as none of them play for the rangers.

[NYR2711]

Richards, yea. But we traded for St. Louis, and the rest were just middling contracts, at most.

 

Didn?t they re-sign St Louis the following year? They were all $4M+ per year contracts, and all bad contracts for the team. This team will always go for the big name and contract if they can fit it.

[josh]

The Girardi buy-out hit is worse than any of those contracts.

[Future]

Didn’t they re-sign St Louis the following year? They were all $4M+ per year contracts, and all bad contracts for the team. This team will always go for the big name and contract if they can fit it.

No, he still had a year left when they traded for him.

 

Higgins - 1 year, 2.25

Dan Boyle - 2 years, 9 million

Naslund - 2 years, 8 million

Kotalik - 3 years, 9 million

Frolov - 1 year, 3 million

 

None of these contracts are problematic, because none of them have term. Richards was a huge contract. But otherwise, the Rangers' UFA spending has been real tame, especially the last 5 years. They really haven't signed any UFA of note since Boyle, other than depth guys. I mean, Naslund was 2008, Kotalik and Higgins I think were 2009, Frolov was 2010. The Rangers are not big UFA players in the current landscape.

[josh]

No, he still had a year left when they traded for him.

 

Higgins - 1 year, 2.25

Dan Boyle - 2 years, 9 million

Naslund - 2 years, 8 million

Kotalik - 3 years, 9 million

Frolov - 1 year, 3 million

 

None of these contracts are problematic, because none of them have term. Richards was a huge contract. But otherwise, the Rangers' UFA spending has been real tame, especially the last 5 years. They really haven't signed any UFA of note since Boyle, other than depth guys. I mean, Naslund was 2008, Kotalik and Higgins I think were 2009, Frolov was 2010. The Rangers are not big UFA players in the current landscape.

as FF already said - Shattenkirk.

[Phil]

They were after Jumbo Joe before setting for Shattenkirk. Kevin Hayes was wanted by the entirety of the NHL. So was Vesey.

 

But generally Mike is correct -- they haven't consistently gone big game hunting since like 2007-2009.

 

 

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[Future]

Eh, forgot about Shattenkirk lol.

 

But I still don't think it really changes my point. The Rangers aren't really an organization that builds around spending top dollar on UFAs. At least outside of what other teams do.

[ThirtyONE]

To be fair the UFA landscape has changed. Desirable players are getting long term deals from their hometown team before they ever go to market. Players that are over 30 are considered on the outs. 10 years ago that was not the case.

 

So yeah, Rangers aren’t spending but that’s because there’s not much out there to spend on. Shattenkirk was the prize off season target. Rangers got him. The fact they were even interested in Thornton proves not much has changed.

[The Dude]

The Rangers don't really care about UFAs unless they are rookies.

 

Who even was the last big money UFA we signed...Redden?

 

Shattenkirk?

[LindG1000]

To be fair the UFA landscape has changed. Desirable players are getting long term deals from their hometown team before they ever go to market. Players that are over 30 are considered on the outs. 10 years ago that was not the case.

 

So yeah, Rangers aren’t spending but that’s because there’s not much out there to spend on. Shattenkirk was the prize off season target. Rangers got him. The fact they were even interested in Thornton proves not much has changed.

 

I mean, the whole thing has changed, no? Drafting philosophies, development plans, free agency, what it takes to win....all of it.

 

The one thing that hasn't changed? Drafting wins championships. The thing that the Red Wings, Stars, Avs (yes, I know), Devils, Penguins, Blackhawks, Kings, etc, etc all had was the opportunity to build from within. Yes, they took advantage of circumstance - that's what good GMs do!

 

It's a question of the quality of pick that determines how quickly you get there. When you blow picks on the Nikita Filatovs of the world, or horrendously mismanage top picks (you can read an entire case study on mismanaging picks here, and a second one here), you're pretty fucked, and you'll be bad for a long time.

 

My bigger question is whether or not Gorton can be trusted to appropriately manage high picks, seize the day, and make it work.

[Fatfrancesa]

To be fair the UFA landscape has changed. Desirable players are getting long term deals from their hometown team before they ever go to market. Players that are over 30 are considered on the outs. 10 years ago that was not the case.

 

So yeah, Rangers aren’t spending but that’s because there’s not much out there to spend on. Shattenkirk was the prize off season target. Rangers got him. The fact they were even interested in Thornton proves not much has changed.

 

This is right on. It also needs to be pointed out that the rangers rarely have money to go spend big anyway.

 

The league has put a huge premium on players who contribute on elcs. The good teams have a hard enough time keeping their own players because of the cap. The smart gms identify the cornerstone pieces and lock them up long term.

[LindG1000]

Not to keep piling on, but when we look at good teams, they've never been afraid to move key players they knew they either couldn't afford or couldn't have the sort of long-term impact they needed.

 

The Blackhawks traded Byfuglien, Ladd, Saad, Panarin (to get Saad back), Shaw, Teravainen, Hjalmarsson, Sharp, Leddy, Bolland, Frolik, Brouwer, Versteeg.

 

The Penguins traded James Neal, ManBearPig, Jordan Staal, Goligoski, Whitney, Armstrong.

 

Not that we need to be so active, but the point stands.

[Long live the King]

This is right on. It also needs to be pointed out that the rangers rarely have money to go spend big anyway.

 

The league has put a huge premium on players who contribute on elcs. The good teams have a hard enough time keeping their own players because of the cap. The smart gms identify the cornerstone pieces and lock them up long term.

 

Is that not what the Rangers have done? First with Stepan, McD, Zucc, Krieder, Brassard. Then Zib, soon to be Miller, Skjei, and Hayes. In a few years with Vesey, Buch, Chytil, and Andersson...

[LindG1000]

Also worth noting that this guy is currently a top prospect for this years' draft.

 

[Long live the King]

Not to keep piling on, but when we look at good teams, they've never been afraid to move key players they knew they either couldn't afford or couldn't have the sort of long-term impact they needed.

 

The Blackhawks traded Byfuglien, Ladd, Saad, Panarin (to get Saad back), Shaw, Teravainen, Hjalmarsson, Sharp, Leddy, Bolland, Frolik, Brouwer, Versteeg.

 

The Penguins traded James Neal, ManBearPig, Jordan Staal, Goligoski, Whitney, Armstrong.

 

Not that we need to be so active, but the point stands.

 

You say it yourself. It had nothing to do with not being afraid to move key players, they had no choice.

 

Chicago has over $33 million dollars tied up in Kane, Toews, Seabrook, and Kieth.

 

Same with the Pens. They have $25.5 million in Crosby, Malkin, and Letang. Frankly their lucky they were able to sign those guys in 2012, 2013 instead of 2014 or 2015. They would have cost way more.

 

But when you have an elite offensive player they can play with anyone and put up points.

[Fatfrancesa]

Is that not what the Rangers have done? First with Stepan, McD, Zucc, Krieder, Brassard. Then Zib, soon to be Miller, Skjei, and Hayes. In a few years with Vesey, Buch, Chytil, and Andersson...[/quote

If you say so

[josh]

Not to keep piling on, but when we look at good teams, they've never been afraid to move key players they knew they either couldn't afford or couldn't have the sort of long-term impact they needed.

 

The Blackhawks traded Byfuglien, Ladd, Saad, Panarin (to get Saad back), Shaw, Teravainen, Hjalmarsson, Sharp, Leddy, Bolland, Frolik, Brouwer, Versteeg.

 

The Penguins traded James Neal, ManBearPig, Jordan Staal, Goligoski, Whitney, Armstrong.

 

Not that we need to be so active, but the point stands.

 

Callahan, Dubi, Gomez, Talbot, Prucha, Anisimov, Stepan, Gaborik, Brassard, Hagelin

 

I dont think anyone on here is against trading players, necessarily. We currently divide on what we should get for those players.

Rebuilds arent the same for every team. And you are never going to draft everyone. I listed off a huge list of players the Penguins acquired for their cups. Its a mix and match system, no doubt.

[The Dude]

I mean, the whole thing has changed, no? Drafting philosophies, development plans, free agency, what it takes to win....all of it.

 

The one thing that hasn't changed? Drafting wins championships. The thing that the Red Wings, Stars, Avs (yes, I know), Devils, Penguins, Blackhawks, Kings, etc, etc all had was the opportunity to build from within. Yes, they took advantage of circumstance - that's what good GMs do!

 

It's a question of the quality of pick that determines how quickly you get there. When you blow picks on the Nikita Filatovs of the world, or horrendously mismanage top picks (you can read an entire case study on mismanaging picks here, and a second one here), you're pretty fucked, and you'll be bad for a long time.

 

My bigger question is whether or not Gorton can be trusted to appropriately manage high picks, seize the day, and make it work.

 

Let's not forget how Bad some of those teams were for so long. The Penguins I think were rumored to relocate, because they stunk so bad and the igloo was not drawing shit.

 

This "do what they did", thought process isn't practical. The Rangers will not stoop to sucking for 8 years, so they can have a shot at a lottery pick in hopes of the next generational talent. Nobody in sports but the Cleveland Browns does that anymore and they continually fuck that up.

 

It's funny to say it but the Rangers have too much integrity to do that. I'm going to throw up.

[Blue Heaven]

Let's not forget how Bad some of those teams were for so long. The Penguins I think were rumored to relocate, because they stunk so bad and the igloo was not drawing shit.

 

This "do what they did", thought process isn't practical. The Rangers will not stoop to sucking for 8 years, so they can have a shot at a lottery pick in hopes of the next generational talent. Nobody in sports but the Cleveland Browns does that anymore and they continually fuck that up.

 

It's funny to say it but the Rangers have too much integrity to do that. I'm going to throw up.

 

Sad part is they did suck for 7 straight years and they didnt even try to suck, it was just poor management choices

[Fatfrancesa]

Let's not forget how Bad some of those teams were for so long. The Penguins I think were rumored to relocate, because they stunk so bad and the igloo was not drawing shit.

 

This "do what they did", thought process isn't practical. The Rangers will not stoop to sucking for 8 years, so they can have a shot at a lottery pick in hopes of the next generational talent. Nobody in sports but the Cleveland Browns does that anymore and they continually fuck that up.

 

It's funny to say it but the Rangers have too much integrity to do that. I'm going to throw up.

 

“Do what they did”. Is a straw man argument. Who’s asking for them to trade everything and try to suck for 5-10 years to compile top draft picks?

 

Wanting to trade players who don’t have contracts next year for assets is a long way from do what they did

 

The whole premise comes from the stay pat crew making the argument that mid to late round first round picks aren’t good enough to make a difference. It was first they are contenders to now if isn’t a top 2 pick it’s a waste of time.

 

The orginal discussion was and still is do you keep your ufa for a cup run that’s improbable at best or do you move them for the best assets you can get while probably ending any hopes of making the playoffs?

[Slobberknocker]

i've been on record on this thread and others that no one is untouchable. i also believe we need to take a step back this year and be seller's in order to move a step forward.

 

i liked what Gorton did this past summer. my fear is that the powers above him in the chase for the almighty playoff dollar may not let him be a seller next month.

 

even the mighty yankees were sellers the year before. however they also have had a long term plan in place that protected there picks and have totally rebuilt there minor league. our minor league team needs major work still.

[Fatfrancesa]

Hartford is a complete mess. It needs a lot of work.

[Long live the King]

“Do what they did”. Is a straw man argument. Who’s asking for them to trade everything and try to suck for 5-10 years to compile top draft picks?

 

Wanting to trade players who don’t have contracts next year for assets is a long way from do what they did

 

The whole premise comes from the stay pat crew making the argument that mid to late round first round picks aren’t good enough to make a difference. It was first they are contenders to now if isn’t a top 2 pick it’s a waste of time.

 

The orginal discussion was and still is do you keep your ufa for a cup run that’s improbable at best or do you move them for the best assets you can get while probably ending any hopes of making the playoffs?

 

I've maintained pretty consistently that it all comes down to the standings. And its not that mid to late 1st aren't good enough, it's that mid to late round firsts aren't any better than what we've been doing.

 

Our last 1st was Skjei in 2012. It took 5 seasons after his draft for him to play. In his draft 6 years ago, 6 out of the 11 players picked 20-30 have played more than 82 games. (54.5%)

 

From the 2013 draft 5 years ago, 5 out of the 11 players picked 20-30 have played more than 82 games. (45.5%)

 

From the 2014 draft 4 years ago, 5 (we'll count Kempe) out of the 11 players picked 20-30 have played more than 82 games. (45.5%)

 

From the 2015 draft 3 years ago, 4 (we'll count Boeser and Eriksson-Ek) out of the 11 players picked 20-30 have played more than 82 games. (36.4%)

 

No one from 2016 or 17 plays yet.

 

The argument isn't that these picks are a waste of time. Its that you don't go out of your way (selling a chance at the playoffs) to get an extra draft pick that has a 45% chance of playing in 3-6 years from now. When you consider they signed Hayes in place of a 2014 1st rounder and Vesey in place of a 2016 first rounder. Additionally they signed a slew of college free agents this past summer.

[The Dude]

i've been on record on this thread and others that no one is untouchable. i also believe we need to take a step back this year and be seller's in order to move a step forward.

 

i liked what Gorton did this past summer. my fear is that the powers above him in the chase for the almighty playoff dollar may not let him be a seller next month.

 

even the mighty yankees were sellers the year before. however they also have had a long term plan in place that protected there picks and have totally rebuilt there minor league. our minor league team needs major work still.

 

Skjei and maybe Buch are the only absolute untouchables on this current roster. It'd take a big time player to send Zib packing as well. I have no issues dealing everyone else if they decide to give up on the season.

[Sod16]

Thank you for compiling these numbers. They should disabuse anyone of the notion that a successful rebuild is going to be initiated by trading proven NHL players for draft picks in the 20-30 overall range. Selling at the deadline is a good idea when you are out of the playoffs and you have a UFA who you don't think you can resign. It doesn't make that much sense otherwise. That's why there is often less activity at the deadline than the pundits would like to conjure up. If they don't think they can sign Nash and they are five points out of a playoff spot, fine, trade him for a late first rounder and a decent prospect. But trading quality players like McD and Z36 who are not to be UFAs for picks is a recipe for rapid profound decline for an extended period. It seems like a lot of posters want to Buffalo-ize this team (and then when they miss the playoffs five years in a row, they can grouse and stop watching).