Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I was wallowing in Twitter this morning and I was assured I was an idiot for not thinking we could get a 1st, a 3rd and a prospect for Grabner. We're saved. Let's do it. Well stop wallowing then. You're better than twitter anyway. Ahh so this is the temptation game. Well tell me about this prospect. Top tier? Guy like Sergachev or Gerard? One notch down? OK trade the fuker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phillyb Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Not sure if Cogliano is a good comparison though, in terms of production. Just looking at the stat sheet, and admittedly not watching the games, Grabner is much more of a scoring threat. Cogs has 5 goals this season in 44 games. Grabner has more goals than Patrick Kane, Tarasenko, JVR, Marchand, and the list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Ha, love the comparisons to Tarasenko, Kane, et al. Tip o the cap to Grabner. Well Cogs and Grabs are similar in age, speed, D, PK. Over their careers, their numbers are similar. Cogs gets the serious edge on reliability and has been a team leader forever there. He finally missed a game due to suspension. I love the guy, thought he was like Hags. Grabs finally replaced Hags. These are 3 to 3.5 mil vets in my view. Plus Cogs got only a tiny raise. That contract will be a sweet raise for Grabs. It also provides Grabs injury insurance for the rest of this year and keeps him where he wants. Like Zuc, he gives us a hoemtown discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Ha, love the comparisons to Tarasenko, Kane, et al. Tip o the cap to Grabner. Well Cogs and Grabs are similar in age, speed, D, PK. Over their careers, their numbers are similar. Cogs gets the serious edge on reliability and has been a team leader forever there. He finally missed a game due to suspension. I love the guy, thought he was like Hags. Grabs finally replaced Hags. These are 3 to 3.5 mil vets in my view. Plus Cogs got only a tiny raise. That contract will be a sweet raise for Grabs. It also provides Grabs injury insurance for the rest of this year and keeps him where he wants. Like Zuc, he gives us a hoemtown discount. Cogs is a solid player, and decent comparison... if you dont care about scoring goals. Grabner is one goal away for matching Cogs career high, who averages about 12 goals a season. The difference between the 2, is one has game breaking speed and is a constant scoring threat. That pays. You'll most certainly see more teams lining up for Grabner than you would Cogliano. The comparisons were regarding goals scored. He's tied for third in the league in ES goals since the start of last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sod16 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I think a trade of McD or Grabner would be highly ill advised. You can trade for three excellent prospects, and none may turn out to be the player McD is. Note it has been years since he has had an adequate partner. He still should have five good years after this season. Grabner is such a good fit here, will sign for a little less than he would elsewhere, and will last longer than most players his age due to his wheels. Dumb to trade him. We still have to field a team next year! Most fire sales don't end up working so well for the sellers. Z36 I can see trading, but it would have to be a better offer than I expect we will get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Cogs is a solid player, and decent comparison... if you dont care about scoring goals. Grabner is one goal away for matching Cogs career high, who averages about 12 goals a season. The difference between the 2, is one has game breaking speed and is a constant scoring threat. That pays. You'll most certainly see more teams lining up for Grabner than you would Cogliano. The comparisons were regarding goals scored. He's tied for third in the league in ES goals since the start of last season. Fair enough. How about Gorton enter negotiations with him with a 30 day goal of signing a Cog's like deal and see where we end up. I'm betting he will appreciate the money and insurance and vote of confidence, giving us a hometown discount. I also like the message it sends to the players about production and skating and not quitting and defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Yeah, of course. If he wants to sign around3 for 3, without a NTC, sure. I dont think thats realistic. Thats all I'm saying. Plus, I'm worried about him in a different system. AV allows those wings to fly up the ice, take some chances. Move him for a "box", or "5 men in front" defensive scheme, and he's Pat Rismiller making 3m a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I understand completely. People constantly yapping about trade this guy, cut that guy, bench the other guy, fire the coach. Oh wait, it's Hank's fault. No it's the d-men. Wait, it's the PP. Hold it, the GM has to rebuild. Then you clearly don't understand, since your response (unsurprisingly) was again hyperbolic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Also, if this is not the start of Nash carrying us on his back for a little while, then it makes trading him at the deadline more tenable. Especially if we hold onto Grabs, making the decision-making "situational". Not dogmatic or formulaic. Now that he is on a nice line with Zib and Buch (had his best game in a while) and with Kreids and Hayes out, the time is now for Nash to assert himself with some goals. If he does, we may go on a run. If he doesn't we might grab a 1st rounder for him. Either way, mgmt would not be acting like quitters or gamblers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I do understand asset mgmt and that teams with UFA's (especially those that may not make the playoffs) have to consider getting good assets for them, or risk losing the player in the offseason for nothing. This has been established as a basic tenet for good mgmt in this league. No argument. However, culture, attitude, fit, how you treat players, commitment to the current team and a team's philosophy about winning all play important roles in managing a franchise. For instance, mgmt meets with a player who wants to come here. Says he will deliver defense, speed, PK and offensive production and signs a fair (even cheap) team favorable deal. Then the player goes on to deliver everything promised and more. Coaches and teammates love him, fit is perfect, versatility is excellent, production is beyond our highest expectations. The guy makes a consistent impact every game. So what do we do? Of course trade him. None of the above matters, he's a commodity. It does not matter that we are still a month from the deadline and we are currently in a playoff spot. The fans need the team to dump all our UFAs for draft picks (the best being late first rounders) in some fantasy hockey attempt to have 14 1st rounders and a bunch of extra 2nd and 3rds too. It does not matter that the team is built with a significant amount of seasoned vets who have shown the ability and character to win big playoff battles. Or that we have a goalie who is still among the top third of the league. Nor does it matter that none of the current players or coaches are interested in how many 18 yearolds we can add so that in 2021 we have a nice crop of youth in camp. The point is that it does matter that you like Grabner very much. You like him because he is constantly working hard, helping win hockey games and performing beyond expectations. By trading him now, the message you send to individuals and the team is that it does not matter what you do for the Rangers, you are a commodity. That this is not a people and talent business, this is a soulless operation with a bunch of old cigar smokers controling everyones destiny like pawns on a board. That at the top, ideals like integrity, performance and never giving up, hold little real meaning or value. This is not who the Rangers are and they should be careful not to send that message. This is why, for key players, we must wait till near the deadline to assess EVERYTHING. Assess where we are, expectations, where is the competition, injuries, injuries around the league, what trading partners are offering, what is the best return, are we resigning any of these guys now or even in July. Fatty, I totally get where you are coming from and I agree that the current squad does not look like one that has a decent chance to truly contend for the Cup. However, it would be pure hubris by me to shout from the rafters to trade Grabner now, for instance. I may think we are a longshot, but it is hubris to think one is certain to be accurate in their speculation on such a complex series of possible events. PARTICULARLY, when more data is to be provided, before any of these decisions need to be made. Haven't you ever been surprised by the outcome of a game, season, series or champion in the past? Think about it. For Phil and other bright guys under 40... intelligence only goes only so far in good decision making. Wisdom provides perspective, humility and the power to intelligence. I’m not saying trade him now. I’m saying trade him by the deadline if he’s not resigned and things don’t drastically change. The rangers can pay homage to Grabner by offering him a fair extension. Grabner can accept and there is nothing to talk about. The business and soleless aspect of this league goes both ways. Grabner is well within his rights to want to test the market because of his success. Ultimately it’s a two way street to get him signed. If they cannot come to an agreement then all the love for him by keeping him means nothing when he hits the open market. We’ve all seen players who fit perfectly leave the perfect situation to ensure financial stability for life after hockey. I don’t blame the player at all but as gm operating your team you cannot allow your organization to lose a valuable player for nothing. Tavares could be traded under this same thought process. To think that Grabner sees what we see and that this is his best fit is naive. He may but it probably comes with the caveat that he still needs to be paid. We can’t be dillisional in thinking that the same thing that makes him such a great trade chip also doesn’t make him a highly sought after fa. If the rangers trade either Nash or Grabner it will have zero negative effect on their prestige amount players around the league. They have always been considered one of if not the best organizations in terms of how they treat players. I knew, and say knew, because I no longer see him or talk to him, a very high profile devil ufa who signed with the rangers years back. His girl friend was my wife’s coworker and very close friend. We hung out often during the summer he signed. The biggest thing he always talked about between the two teams was how well he was treated or not treated. He spoke of even playing at the meadowlands as a devil and having to walk to his car which wasn’t close to the arena while the rangers had cars pick them up to take them to their cars. Little shit even just the food on the plane and the plane itself. This organization has nothing to worry about by making a trade that like you said every team in the league does. That should be the further thing that they should worry about. That said if the team isn’t good or going into a rebuild that would effect ufas from wanting to sign. But if you are rebuilding, which I don’t think trading Grabner and Nash indicates, then signing big ufas is an afterthought for the foreseeable future anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sod16 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Reasonable minds could differ with respect to what to do with Nash. BTW, I don't think most contenders can add 7.8m, or perhaps even half that if we absorbed it, within the cap. That could limit the number of suitors. I hope we see one of Nash's hot streaks, but I realize that in the years to come, they will be fewer and farther between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Russ Cohen on nhl channel Sirius just said he doesn’t believe Nash would waive wis ntc for a move at the deadline anyway. He also says that while the rangers would be a preferred team to resign with that he thinks he would play the market with the leafs being a very possible destination. He says Babcock still loves him and Toronto would have no problem signing him to a short term deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Reasonable minds could differ with respect to what to do with Nash. BTW, I don't think most contenders can add 7.8m, or perhaps even half that if we absorbed it, within the cap. That could limit the number of suitors. I hope we see one of Nash's hot streaks, but I realize that in the years to come, they will be fewer and farther between. His cap hit is prorated so it would only be about 3M because there would only be roughly 1/3rd of the season left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Reasonable minds could differ with respect to what to do with Nash. BTW, I don't think most contenders can add 7.8m, or perhaps even half that if we absorbed it, within the cap. That could limit the number of suitors. I hope we see one of Nash's hot streaks, but I realize that in the years to come, they will be fewer and farther between. No doubt, I think most here are providing logical reasoning to support their opinion. Some good arguments. As for Nash's salary, it will hardly be an impediment to most. By the deadline teams would only have to absorb a prorated portion of that Cap. We could also likely retain the nominal difference, especially if we are not taking on salary. More limiting is what Fatty just mentioned. He has a NTC. However, I think it is somewhat limited. Something like 10 teams no trade list. I'll have to check, that probably is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I’m not saying trade him now. I’m saying trade him by the deadline if he’s not resigned and things don’t drastically change. The rangers can pay homage to Grabner by offering him a fair extension. Grabner can accept and there is nothing to talk about. The business and soleless aspect of this league goes both ways. Grabner is well within his rights to want to test the market because of his success. Ultimately it’s a two way street to get him signed. If they cannot come to an agreement then all the love for him by keeping him means nothing when he hits the open market. We’ve all seen players who fit perfectly leave the perfect situation to ensure financial stability for life after hockey. I don’t blame the player at all but as gm operating your team you cannot allow your organization to lose a valuable player for nothing. Tavares could be traded under this same thought process. To think that Grabner sees what we see and that this is his best fit is naive. He may but it probably comes with the caveat that he still needs to be paid. We can’t be dillisional in thinking that the same thing that makes him such a great trade chip also doesn’t make him a highly sought after fa. If the rangers trade either Nash or Grabner it will have zero negative effect on their prestige amount players around the league. They have always been considered one of if not the best organizations in terms of how they treat players. I knew, and say knew, because I no longer see him or talk to him, a very high profile devil ufa who signed with the rangers years back. His girl friend was my wife’s coworker and very close friend. We hung out often during the summer he signed. The biggest thing he always talked about between the two teams was how well he was treated or not treated. He spoke of even playing at the meadowlands as a devil and having to walk to his car which wasn’t close to the arena while the rangers had cars pick them up to take them to their cars. Little shit even just the food on the plane and the plane itself. This organization has nothing to worry about by making a trade that like you said every team in the league does. That should be the further thing that they should worry about. That said if the team isn’t good or going into a rebuild that would effect ufas from wanting to sign. But if you are rebuilding, which I don’t think trading Grabner and Nash indicates, then signing big ufas is an afterthought for the foreseeable future anyway. All good points. Glad you agree that we should hold till near the deadline, before pulling the trigger. Agree on the pragmatic attitude that if we sign a guy, then no asset mgmt issue. If Grab's price or term is too high after serious discussions and he doesn't value not having to worry about an injury affect his family's security, then we may have to move in another direction. If he wants to gamble (ala Steve Smith, NY Giants) and leave a place he said is the best fit he could possibly imagine for a few extra $, so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 All good points. Glad you agree that we should hold till near the deadline, before pulling the trigger. Agree on the pragmatic attitude that if we sign a guy, then no asset mgmt issue. If Grab's price or term is too high after serious discussions and he doesn't value not having to worry about an injury affect his family's security, then we may have to move in another direction. If he wants to gamble (ala Steve Smith, NY Giants) and leave a place he said is the best fit he could possibly imagine for a few extra $, so be it. And I guess what I’m saying is that a resign will determining factor for me. If they can’t get it done then I want to move him rather than taking a remote shot at the cup. His value as a rental will be sky high there is no way to justify not trading him unless he’s resigned before the deadline. Gorton should give his agent a hard date at which a contract needs to be agreed upon and signed. When that deadline hits and it should be st least a week before the deadline then Gorton can do what he has to. On a side note and a player who is reportedly on the block is athanasiou. I would love to see the rangers look into him even if it meant trading some picks or prospects. He’s still very young and be the fastest guy in the league. He’s a center and he could be a useful speed replacement for grabs. Of course if grabs stays good. You can never have enough guys who skate like the wind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Nash does have a full ntc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Nash does have a full ntc Sign me up for Athanasiou, many here are not high on him, but I am. The more you watch him the better you think he is. Plus he has more upside and would fit here. Looked it up and seeing Nash has a modified clause. Dreger claims there is a list of 12 teams, where he can be traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Sign me up for Athanasiou, many here are not high on him, but I am. The more you watch him the better you think he is. Plus he has more upside and would fit here. Looked it up and seeing Nash has a modified clause. Dreger claims there is a list of 12 teams, where he can be traded. I completely disagree about athanasiou. He's more frustrating everytime I watch him. I love speed. Love it. But this guy is a 1 trick pony. Cant pass, cant shoot, cant play d, terrible position, cant win a draw to save his life, puts up under .5 ppg with a ton of playing time. He's an Etem. He'll show up on nhl replays twice a season, but most of the time he'll be on there getting burned, or staring at a play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunny Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 He's brutal. Diamond hands. Sounds good, but harder than stone. It's just Rico Fata in the "new" NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 People are enamored with speed, which is fine until you actually watch them play hockey. I know a kid that I'd bet on from goal line to goal line against kids 2-3 years older than him in junior. Throw a puck out there and watch what happens. Kid should just burn his gear and go the speed skating route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giacomin Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Guess you guys didn't see any of the Detroit game last night, sweet goal. Or the game prior against Chicago. Of the action I saw, the kid was the best player on the ice. 4 points in 2 games. He is just 23. His first year he was called up for the last 34 games . He potted 10G and 11A. Last year was his first full year. He played 64 and scored 18 goals. He missed camp this year and has 9 goals in 37, but his play is picking up. And his D is solid. I'd love to give him a shot here and understand you guys aren't keen to the idea. Let's see how he progresses this year and next, wherever he winds up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Couldn’t imagine it costing much to get him. The guy gets chances like Grabner does. If he ever learns to finish he’ll score 30. Please reread i said if. The rangers supposed identity is speed and transition. Not sure how a player like that doesn’t fit the bill more than half the forwards currently residing here. He’s a flawed player much like Grabner was when he came to ny. If he wasn’t he’d be untouchable. He has tons of upside and it’s the exact type move that may cost you a mid level prospect or a second round pick, maybe even Vesey straight up. Point is the guy has home run potential in what he could become. He could also never develop more than what he is now which at the very least is s high energy, great forechecking forward that backs off the opponent. His speed doesn’t take nights off either nor does the threat of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Guess you guys didn't see any of the Detroit game last night, sweet goal. Or the game prior against Chicago. Of the action I saw, the kid was the best player on the ice. 4 points in 2 games. He is just 23. His first year he was called up for the last 34 games . He potted 10G and 11A. Last year was his first full year. He played 64 and scored 18 goals. He missed camp this year and has 9 goals in 37, but his play is picking up. And his D is solid. I'd love to give him a shot here and understand you guys aren't keen to the idea. Let's see how he progresses this year and next, wherever he winds up. I'm more against giving up much of anything for him. And its unrealistic to expect him to be a consistent contributor, offensively, or earn top-6 playing minutes, as he's getting now. So, for my bottom 6, I'd much rather have Fast, Grabner, Boo, Andersson, and someone with some grit&leadership. more along the lines of prototypical bottom 6 guys. Depending on the direction of the team this summer, might even need a spot or 2 for some rookies 'developing' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Heaven Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Sign me up for Athanasiou, many here are not high on him, but I am. The more you watch him the better you think he is. Plus he has more upside and would fit here. Looked it up and seeing Nash has a modified clause. Dreger claims there is a list of 12 teams, where he can be traded. Why would Detroit trade him when they are looking to dump their high priced vets and continue with a rebuild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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