Long live the King Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 This is the crux of the issue, this is not the way to build a consistent cup contender. I'd rather give up a couple of seasons as a wild card team with long shots at the cup, and miss the playoffs for a couple of years if it means rebuilding the team and giving us a much better chance at winning the cup in the future. It's the difference in managing year-to-year (like the Rangers) vs other franchises that have a long term plan. This is what my entire argument has been based on. In my opinion, the bolded part here is a pipe dream. I've listed examples of how many teams now: Pitt, Chi, LA, Florida, Buff, ATL/Winn, Arizona, etc. It wasn't missing the playoffs for a couple of years. They were the worst teams in the league for extended periods of time. Multiple, as in 7-10+, top ten picks and the only thing that saved the teams that turned it around and won cups is being shitty and lucky enough to get a top 3 pick in a year with a generational talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Incorrect? Not hardly, imho. Moderators have unbridled power and use it at their own discretion. There have been many instances on this and other boards where posts have been removed, posters reprimanded and infractions/warnings given for trivial reasons. Unfortunately, my original statement rings true. Yeah? Show me the evidence. You'd think, you know, considering I run the board, that I know how it operates. Especially regarding discipline. But apparently not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 This is what my entire argument has been based on. In my opinion, the bolded part here is a pipe dream. I've listed examples of how many teams now: Pitt, Chi, LA, Florida, Buff, ATL/Winn, Arizona, etc. It wasn't missing the playoffs for a couple of years. They were the worst teams in the league for extended periods of time. Multiple, as in 7-10+, top ten picks and the only thing that saved the teams that turned it around and won cups is being shitty and lucky enough to get a top 3 pick in a year with a generational talent. Which do you think is of more value to the chance of the Rangers winning a Stanley Cup in the near future — holding onto UFAs like Grabner, Nash, etc. plus keeping McDonagh and Zuccarello, or "judiciously selling" among the group for a myriad of high-level prospects and first-round picks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fletch Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 This is what my entire argument has been based on. In my opinion, the bolded part here is a pipe dream. I've listed examples of how many teams now: Pitt, Chi, LA, Florida, Buff, ATL/Winn, Arizona, etc. It wasn't missing the playoffs for a couple of years. They were the worst teams in the league for extended periods of time. Multiple, as in 7-10+, top ten picks and the only thing that saved the teams that turned it around and won cups is being shitty and lucky enough to get a top 3 pick in a year with a generational talent. Having a generational talent sure helps but having a good young core is essential to be a consistent contender. Chicago is more than Kane, and Pittsburgh is more than Crosby. The Rangers have a tendency to acquire the shiniest past-peak name, instead of building a young core. I'd advocate the approach Phil suggests. Which do you think is of more value to the chance of the Rangers winning a Stanley Cup in the near future — holding onto UFAs like Grabner, Nash, etc. plus keeping McDonagh and Zuccarello, or "judiciously selling" among the group for a myriad of high-level prospects and first-round picks? because our young core of Miller, Zibanejad, Hayes, Vesey, etc isn't good enough (IMO) to be a consistent Cup contender - we need more talent in our top 6 to boost our existing core. And instead of grabbing a temporary past-prime fix for a year or two, we should be looking to get Top 6 players before their prime. We need to move beyond the strategy of hoping that Lundqvist is the best player on the ice for 4 consecutive rounds of the playoffs - he's 36 years old and 2011-2013 Lundqvist is gone forever. Having the goalie as the best player on the ice hasn't worked for very many teams - Buffalo with Hasek, Montreal with Roy and now Price, LA with Quick. We need to get younger and more talented in our top 6, and if that means sacrificing Nash, Zuccarello, and or McDonagh, that's the price I'm willing to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 That much I agree with wholeheartedly. I've said it for years. Goalies CANNOT WIN YOU HOCKEY GAMES. They only keep you alive in ones you otherwise don't belong in long enough to steal a victory. That's not a worthwhile strategy for winning a Stanley Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers4Life Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 That much I agree with wholeheartedly. I've said it for years. Goalies CANNOT WIN YOU HOCKEY GAMES. They only keep you alive in ones you otherwise don't belong in long enough to steal a victory. That's not a worthwhile strategy for winning a Stanley Cup. Like I said, our generational talent plays the wrong position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Yeah? Show me the evidence. You'd think, you know, considering I run the board, that I know how it operates. Especially regarding discipline. But apparently not. I'm not going to get into a lose/lose for me discussion with you on the subject. And, I do know that you run the board and can use your discretion whenever you deem fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 It's only a losing discussion for you because you're making declarative statements about a process you've only been on one side of (not being privy to when and why other members are infracted or warned or have their posts deleted). The fact of the matter is that I've removed countless posts and disciplined other users for going after you. You now crying foul over being disciplined yourself is rich. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Haha. I?m done. Another trade all our garbage for a top line center guy. All we need is you know a top line center and poof we are contenders. It hurts to try and rationalize with mentality. I?m arguing with somebody who lives in a fantasy world. Teams don?t trade top line centers period. So zetterberg would be a fit. Haven?t seen that before. Let?s trade for a forty year old. I?m done discussing unicorns and Bigfoot. Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Which do you think is of more value to the chance of the Rangers winning a Stanley Cup in the near future — holding onto UFAs like Grabner, Nash, etc. plus keeping McDonagh and Zuccarello, or "judiciously selling" among the group for a myriad of high-level prospects and first-round picks? If you're in the the playoffs you have to take the shot. Being in the playoffs is the only way you have a shot. The longest current playoff drought is Carolina. 8 years. Since they last made the playoffs they've drafted #7, 12, no 1st rounder (traded #8 pick for Jordan Staal), 5, 7, 5, 13 & 21, 12. That's 8 straight years of top 15 picks and they're still on the outside looking in. The next 2 longest droughts are Buffalo and Arizona. They have tons of high end prospects. Again I'm not against trading any and everyone, but only if the shit play continues and we fall out of the playoff race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LONG LONG LONG TIME FAN Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 It's only a losing discussion for you because you're making declarative statements about a process you've only been on one side of (not being privy to when and why other members are infracted or warned or have their posts deleted). The fact of the matter is that I've removed countless posts and disciplined other users for going after you. You now crying foul over being disciplined yourself is rich. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk I said I'm not getting into a further discussion on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Having a generational talent sure helps but having a good young core is essential to be a consistent contender. Chicago is more than Kane, and Pittsburgh is more than Crosby. The Rangers have a tendency to acquire the shiniest past-peak name, instead of building a young core. I'd advocate the approach Phil suggests. That's not at all true. If you look at the playoff stats of those teams, Kane/Toews and Crosby/Malkin and Kessel carry the load aided by vets, very few impact player in their early 20's on those teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I said I'm not getting into a further discussion on this! Then why did you respond!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 If you're in the the playoffs you have to take the shot. Being in the playoffs is the only way you have a shot. The longest current playoff drought is Carolina. 8 years. Since they last made the playoffs they've drafted #7, 12, no 1st rounder (traded #8 pick for Jordan Staal), 5, 7, 5, 13 & 21, 12. That's 8 straight years of top 15 picks and they're still on the outside looking in. The next 2 longest droughts are Buffalo and Arizona. They have tons of high end prospects. Again I'm not against trading any and everyone, but only if the shit play continues and we fall out of the playoff race. That doesn't answer my question, though. I'm not asking what the "right thing" to do is. I'm asking what you think it's a better strategy for Cup success. Let's use their current pace as a barometer. Assume they maintain this position, but the same level of play. Which, in your estimation, lends best to the Rangers' chance at winning a Cup ? limping into a first-round matchup against the Lightning or Caps, or judiciously selling for a slew of high-end prospects and draft picks? Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 That's not at all true. If you look at the playoff stats of those teams, Kane/Toews and Crosby/Malkin and Kessel carry the load aided by vets, very few impact player in their early 20's on those teams. Now. Not in the recent past. The price they've paid for success is in having to trade away much of that talent to meet the Cap ceiling. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Which do you think is of more value to the chance of the Rangers winning a Stanley Cup in the near future — holding onto UFAs like Grabner, Nash, etc. plus keeping McDonagh and Zuccarello, or "judiciously selling" among the group for a myriad of high-level prospects and first-round picks? Havent we had a decent run of doing a little of everything? Some people are caught up on what they Rangers did years and years ago, but this team isnt run that way. Theyve traded for 1 player "past his prime", in E Staal, we didnt like the trade, but Staal actually had a huge bounceback season the next year. oops. Other than that, there havent been these massive trades for washed up guys. Nash put up 40, Smith everyone loves/d, Yandle was ok for more than a few months, Gaborik traded, Brassard traded to get younger and faster, Stepan moved to get younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 That doesn't answer my question, though. I'm not asking what the "right thing" to do is. I'm asking what you think it's a better strategy for Cup success. Let's use their current pace as a barometer. Assume they maintain this position, but the same level of play. Which, in your estimation, lends best to the Rangers' chance at winning a Cup – limping into a first-round matchup against the Lightning or Caps, or judiciously selling for a slew of high-end prospects and draft picks? Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk trading our strengths to upgrade the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 That's not at all true. If you look at the playoff stats of those teams, Kane/Toews and Crosby/Malkin and Kessel carry the load aided by vets, very few impact player in their early 20's on those teams. I agree. Best teams are top heavy teams, with great players. Young core dont mean shit unless you have game breaking talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangers4Life Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Top heavy with a supporting cast of speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfrancesa Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Rangers don’t have those players I think we can all agree on that. It’s the starting point of this whole discussion. So how do they get those players? Draft picks and prospects seem the only way. Even if you were able to sign a ufa like Tavares his cap hit would require cheaper talent to fill out your roster and fit into the cap. Regardless holding onto nash and Grabner is great for this year but in the end doesn’t get you any close in the years to come. The only question is there a reasonable chance for a cup this year? If yes then keep them if no than trade them. We Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 That doesn't answer my question, though. I'm not asking what the "right thing" to do is. I'm asking what you think it's a better strategy for Cup success. Let's use their current pace as a barometer. Assume they maintain this position, but the same level of play. Which, in your estimation, lends best to the Rangers' chance at winning a Cup – limping into a first-round matchup against the Lightning or Caps, or judiciously selling for a slew of high-end prospects and draft picks? Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk We sit 4 points behind Columbus with 3 games in hand. Even without a drastic improvement, its not out of the realm of possibility we finish higher than a wild card. I don't know how else to say it. The best strategy for cup success is to play playoff games. If its the middle of February and we're still in a playoff spot you have to take the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Rangers don’t have those players I think we can all agree on that. It’s the starting point of this whole discussion. So how do they get those players? Draft picks and prospects seem the only way. Even if you were able to sign a ufa like Tavares his cap hit would require cheaper talent to fill out your roster and fit into the cap. Regardless holding onto nash and Grabner is great for this year but in the end doesn’t get you any close in the years to come. The only question is there a reasonable chance for a cup this year? If yes then keep them if no than trade them. We Youre asking me if I'm going to marry this girl and we havent even gone on our first date, yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Rangers don’t have those players I think we can all agree on that. It’s the starting point of this whole discussion. So how do they get those players? Draft picks and prospects seem the only way. Even if you were able to sign a ufa like Tavares his cap hit would require cheaper talent to fill out your roster and fit into the cap. Regardless holding onto nash and Grabner is great for this year but in the end doesn’t get you any close in the years to come. The only question is there a reasonable chance for a cup this year? If yes then keep them if no than trade them. We The cup winning teams all have 1 or 2 "Tavares contracts", though. They usually have 4, then a bunch of 1m guys that fill in. We have too many middling forwards and defenders. Package those guys and upgrade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 The best players don't make the best teams. The best teams are made from the players who play their best together. Winning isn't easy. Winning consistently and being a contender as long as the Rangers have isn't easy or they wouldn't be the only team to miss the playoffs once since pre 04/05 lock out. The Rangers do what they feel is best to help the team win every year, not every organization does that. Now you can say it hasn't worked because there hasn't been a cup, but why would we want to mirror teams that have not only haven't won a cup, but haven't even been relevant for any amount of time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 We sit 4 points behind Columbus with 3 games in hand. Even without a drastic improvement, its not out of the realm of possibility we finish higher than a wild card. I don't know how else to say it. The best strategy for cup success is to play playoff games. If its the middle of February and we're still in a playoff spot you have to take the chance. I don't agree. The best strategy for Cup success is strong drafting. The only way to win the Cup is playing playoff games, but playing them when your chances of winning is very low, or at least not very high, isn't a strategy. It's hope. Sent from my iPhone using Blueshirts Brotherhood mobile app powered by Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.