Phil Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Oh, the Ironborn story was horrible. Made me want to quit reading AFFC every other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Yeah, I think what the HBO version is doing is showing how poor GRRM is at editing his own work. The series should be done by now in book form. He just introduced so many red herrings to keep people guessing that he ended up tripping over them trying to find conclusions for them all. I'm mostly good with the direction of the HBO show. Maybe Danny's arch is a little slower than it needs to be, but any way you slice it, she has to be sort of waiting around for other story lines to catch up to hers. As to Sansa, I imagine Stannis and the Vale (under Littlefinger) will arrive to rescue her and then join forces to head for Kings Landing. Brienne and Podrick will assist her at a vital moment from the inside. Or perhaps Brienne will fail again, and just before Winterfell is recaptured, Sansa will be flayed by Ramsey. That might be even more fitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Also, as much as I hated Catelyn, I did like he Brotherhood Without Banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-Dreamer Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Wonder if they will show up again, when was the last time? Season 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I guess this is a spoiler question, but do White Walkers leaders ever talk? Is there any dialogue or communication from the Night's King as to what their motivation is or anything? Zombies in like TWD have no motivation but that's b/c of disease or w/e, but that's not the case here. Does anybody know why the White Walkers even exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 I guess this is a spoiler question, but do White Walkers leaders ever talk? Is there any dialogue or communication from the Night's King as to what their motivation is or anything? Zombies in like TWD have no motivation but that's b/c of disease or w/e, but that's not the case here. Does anybody know why the White Walkers even exist? It's only a very, very, very minor spoiler. No, they don't talk. We have no idea what their cause is in the books either. But this conversation needs to end here. If you wanna continue it, it's gotta go into the spoiler section. If you're worried you might spoil other things for yourself, just start a new thread there (just be sure to read the rules on how to start them — they require SPOILER text in the headline). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I guess this is a spoiler question, but do White Walkers leaders ever talk? Is there any dialogue or communication from the Night's King as to what their motivation is or anything? Zombies in like TWD have no motivation but that's b/c of disease or w/e, but that's not the case here. Does anybody know why the White Walkers even exist? I don't think it's been covered in the books yet. They are just set up as the ultimate evil, however, I would not be shocked if that didn't turn out to be the case at all. Just a hunch that it won't end up being black and white. Or I guess in this case, red and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 It's only a very, very, very minor spoiler. No, they don't talk. We have no idea what their cause is in the books either. But this conversation needs to end here. If you wanna continue it, it's gotta go into the spoiler section. If you're worried you might spoil other things for yourself, just start a new thread there (just be sure to read the rules on how to start them — they require SPOILER text in the headline). What? I'm in the spoiler section lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Ah, oops. :rofl: Sorry, thought we were out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 I don't think it's been covered in the books yet. They are just set up as the ultimate evil, however, I would not be shocked if that didn't turn out to be the case at all. Just a hunch that it won't end up being black and white. Or I guess in this case, red and white. What? I'm in the spoiler section lol Nah, to me it's a Night's King story. They're absolutely the ultimate evil. Show kind of confirmed that already by accidentally revealing that who we think is the Night's King is in fact exactly the Night's King. There might be a few shades of gray here, but not enough to really blur the line where you can kind of support them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I don't think it's been covered in the books yet. They are just set up as the ultimate evil, however, I would not be shocked if that didn't turn out to be the case at all. Just a hunch that it won't end up being black and white. Or I guess in this case, red and white. In the books its kind of inferred that the Night's King is a stark - Bran the Builder - so I'm guessing it has something to do with that. I just don't really understand why they would be heading south...guess nobody does. “Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Quick back-story on Night's King, by the way, for Future or anyone else who wants the refresher: According to legend, the Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. He was a fearless warrior named the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Later, he fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars". He chased her and loved her though "her skin was cold as ice", and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.[1] He brought her back to the Nightfort and after the unholy union, he declared himself king and her his queen, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the North. It was not until Brandon the Breaker, the King of Winter, and Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that the Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed.[2] After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been making sacrifices to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden and forgotten.[1] It is likely this led the lords of the North to forbid the Night's Watch to construct walls at their keeps, ensuring the keeps would always be accessible from the south. Maesters are skeptical of the legend, thinking the Night's King's corpse queen was possibly a daughter of a Barrow King from the barrowlands.[2] Some fan theories link her with the Others because of her description. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night%27s_King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Yea. If he fell in love with a wight, that would suggest that they are a lot more than evil for evils sake...there is something human about them. My guess is that they are the Targaryen's of the North, in one way or another. Targaryen's had fire, Starks had ice. Probably a bit more complex than that, but it would make a lot of sense in the "Song of Ice and Fire" canon. Actually, the more I think of it, the more that makes sense. Targaryens didn't move into Westeros until the doom came to Valyria...maybe the long winter is similar in the North, hence the wights moving south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think it's simpler — Night's King declared himself king, and was defeated by his own brother (if he is indeed a Stark). He is taking back his land, and all land with his army of the dead. In the mean time, we know Dany is one head of the three-headed dragon. Perhaps Jon Snow is another. Perhaps Tyrion is the last? A song of ice and fire sure as fuck better culminate with the greatest battle ever told between an icy army of the dead and dragon-riding, Valyrian steel-wielding Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 I think it's simpler — Night's King declared himself king, and was defeated by his own brother (if he is indeed a Stark). He is taking back his land, and all land with his army of the dead. In the mean time, we know Dany is one head of the three-headed dragon. Perhaps Jon Snow is another. Perhaps Tyrion is the last? A song of ice and fire sure as fuck better culminate with the greatest battle ever told between an icy army of the dead and dragon-riding, Valyrian steel-wielding Targaryens. That could very well be, which sets Brandon Stark up to, again, defeat that army. I think those are the three heads. Have to be. In the show, I think Tyrion hinted at it a bit with the "i'll tell you why I killed my father bit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 That could very well be, which sets Brandon Stark up to, again, defeat that army. I think those are the three heads. Have to be. In the show, I think Tyrion hinted at it a bit with the "i'll tell you why I killed my father bit." Makes the most sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRangers92 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Whats gonna be interesting though is how Jon acts if/when he's revived by Melisandre (assuming his stab wounds are mortal). It's been pretty clear in the books that when the Red Priest/Priestesses bring the dead back they lose a bit of their humanity (and also evidenced by GRRM in interviews himself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Or whether Martin futher fucks things up by having Jon be "The Great Other" instead, and fulfill the theory of Ice (Snow) versus Fire (Dany). Man, that'd piss a lot of fans off, and really ruin the entire story for him. What a waste of a protagonist only to have him become the biggest villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRangers92 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Yeah I forgot where I read last night that posed that theory. I think it was on Vulture. Don't know why it never crossed my mind. It's alluded to as far back as A Clash of Kings though, when he first tells Ygritte his name and she says something like "that is a cursed name". Perhaps the Night's King was also a bastard Stark. I don't see how that's a waste though. If it does happen it could be a way to give us insight into that side of the fight, since all we've seen so far is the "fire" side saying "ice" must be stopped. I can't put it past GRRM finding a way to give reason behind this "evil". Whatever the case, Bran could probably have some sort of mediating role in this battle, and I hope there's some purpose to warging beyond it just being an ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 What if Fire (Danny) and Ice (Snow/Others) come together to balance the power of the world? More of a Yin/Yang thing than a good/evil. It's not "A Song of Ice vs Fire" but rather "A Song of Ice and Fire". Danny stops slavery and then moves on to King's Landing to end the corruption in the South, while John along with the White Walkers end the oppressive separatism of the Night's Watch and the brutality of the Bolton's hold on the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 And the show may have hinted at it last night with the way the Night's King focused so intently on Jon through his fight with the Wight, who he killed, and as he retreated in that "come at me bro crow Snow" moment. If Martin or even Benioff are going down that path, there's at least some foundation for it. Even though I think it might actually ruin the entire series. It would all depend on how much father they could break down the wall of perception that exists right now around the Wights. You'd have to go a long way in convincing people they're not so evil after all. Snow is too representative of all that is good and moral in this story to sacrifice for such an evil cause like that. It'd turn a lot of peoples' stomachs to see his hero storyline burned to the ground simply because GRRM doesn't like that fans can predict his angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRangers92 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 What if Fire (Danny) and Ice (Snow/Others) come together to balance the power of the world? More of a Yin/Yang thing than a good/evil. It's not "A Song of Ice vs Fire" but rather "A Song of Ice and Fire". Danny stops slavery and then moves on to King's Landing to end the corruption in the South, while John along with the White Walkers end the oppressive separatism of the Night's Watch and the brutality of the Bolton's hold on the North. That's kinda what I was getting at by saying GRRM making Jon an Other could help lend reason behind the "evil" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 What if Fire (Danny) and Ice (Snow/Others) come together to balance the power of the world? More of a Yin/Yang thing than a good/evil. It's not "A Song of Ice vs Fire" but rather "A Song of Ice and Fire". Danny stops slavery and then moves on to King's Landing to end the corruption in the South, while John along with the White Walkers end the oppressive separatism of the Night's Watch and the brutality of the Bolton's hold on the North. Well, it would certainly play to Martin's repeated criticisms of Tolkien's worlds of "good guys and bad guys". But for me, for television, it'd tell a much weaker story than what we could be given. Jon Snow, to me, is absolutely the show's greatest protagonist hero, and the events that should conclude this season will only strengthen that bond. Not weaken it. To have him wake as a Wight after all of this will piss a lot of people off. Myself included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 The theory I'm coming around on is more in line with Stannis being The Great Other. Melisandre's visions show Stannis in a great battle in the snow/north, but she gives no indication as to which side he fights on. I see him with far more cause (due to his convictions and unwavering pride) to to be the destroyer of worlds (even though he thinks he's the savior) than Jon Snow. I see Snow as Azor Ahai — the Prince Who Was Promised — to fight the Wights/Others. I mean, they've laid that foreshadowing on heavy last episode. Azor Ahai is said to have fought the Others back thousands of years ago with his sword, Lightbringer. Well, Azor Ahai reborn will do the same, as Jon Snow, with Longclaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 One thing I did notice, Night's King is a terrible general. He had one wave of Wights and a single White Walker (presumably) come in across the field towards the giant gate. He let that force get beat back before he had the second wave come down from the cliffs. Had he made those two attacks simultaneously or even started with the cliff attack, very few would have escaped to the sea. And why send a single White Walker? Just to see if they could find a way to kill it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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