Rangers Acquire Jack Roslovic From CBJ

[Phil]

17 minutes ago, Pete said:

They're LWs though. And since we heard Othmann has been on the right, he's not done well. I don't know if he's still RW< but he's got 4 points in his last 8 games, but they were (2) two-point games. He's not a dominant AHL player, I don't even know that he definitely makes the team out of camp. Could be he's not motivated down there, I don't know.

 

Yeah, there's an organizational derth of RW in general. That's probably part of why Kakko hasn't been moved yet.

 

I hadn't heard about Othmann struggling on the right. That's frustrating. Berard is another guy I wonder if he can make that move, but man, there's a real log jam on the left side. A few of these guys are gonna end up traded if no one can move over like Laf has.

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I'm sorry if you interpret some truth as anger, but it's really about moving on instead of being emotionally attached to the hope he once represented. I also said if Kakko is Kakko rest of season, clearly leaving the door open for that not to be the case.

What's the truth?

 

He didn't draft himself.

He didn't pay himself.

He didn't trade Buch.

He didn't let Vatrano walk.

 

What emotional attachment? You're spewing hate at a player for nothing. I just find it odd.

[Phil]

6 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

Unless he has a really strong finish here, it's hard to see Kakko getting more than his $2.4m QO on a 1 year deal. He has 12 points in 42 games. Is he really going to reject the QO and go arb? I think he'd get absolutely dragged through the coals. 1 x 2.4 is fair.

 

If Roslovic shows as a fit for KZ, you probably pay him and make the move. The Rangers have several players who can take Kakko's spot on the 3rd line next year.

 

I wouldn't bet on Roslovic being the answer, but I'm just saying if he turns out to be. Again, there should be no more losing good fits on the roster because they have to make space for Kakko's contract. The org will need to move past that should it come down to it.

 

Yeah, I hadn't looked at his projections all that recently. His pace this year (0.29) is a major drag, even on his career average (0.39). The more I look at it, the more I think you have it exactly right. He's being offered his QO. Nothing more. One year.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

What's the truth?

 

He didn't draft himself.

He didn't pay himself.

He didn't trade Buch.

He didn't let Vatrano walk.

 

What emotional attachment? You're spewing hate at a player for nothing. I just find it odd.

 

I don't read any of this as hate. It's criticism. Hate is what I have for Adam Henrique and Alec Martinez. What's happening with Kakko isn't at that level. It's an audible sigh. It's the "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed" you get from your parents as a teenager who fucked up.

[LindG1000]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Yeah, there's an organizational derth of RW in general. That's probably part of why Kakko hasn't been moved yet.

 

I hadn't heard about Othmann struggling on the right. That's frustrating. Berard is another guy I wonder if he can make that move, but man, there's a real log jam on the left side. A few of these guys are gonna end up traded if no one can move over like Laf has.

 

Cuylle moving over to let a rookie have a more natural transition is also an option. For a Berard or an Othmann, that might be the best decision we can make. 

 

Though, your point about a logjam is well taken. We're deeper at LW than...I'd guess most any system in the league. 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

Just now, Pete said:

What's the truth?

 

He didn't draft himself.

He didn't pay himself.

He didn't trade Buch.

He didn't let Vatrano walk.

 

What emotional attachment? You're spewing hate at a player for nothing. I just find it odd.

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I don't personally blame Kakko. It's not like he chose it.

 

The org has clearly made several of these decisions under the influence of investing in him though, and I'm saying if the org is in a spot where they have to choose between a fit on the roster, and paying to keep hoping in Kakko w/o justification, then they can't do that anymore.

 

Hypothetically, let's say Kakko doesn't do much more than he's doing now, say 6-8 points in the last 21 games, and over the same span Roslovic finishes with 14-16 points in the last 21 games. Roslovic wants $5m on his next deal and the only real way you can swing that is to not pay Kakko half that. Are you punting Roslovic and keeping Kakko?

[jsm7302]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I don't personally blame Kakko. It's not like he chose it.

 

The org has clearly made several of these decisions under the influence of investing in him though, and I'm saying if the org is in a spot where they have to choose between a fit on the roster, and paying to keep hoping in Kakko w/o justification, then they can't do that anymore.

 

Hypothetically, let's say Kakko doesn't do much more than he's doing now, say 6-8 points in the last 21 games, and over the same span Roslovic finishes with 14-16 points in the last 21 games. Roslovic wants $5m on his next deal and the only real way you can swing that is to not pay Kakko half that. Are you punting Roslovic and keeping Kakko?

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

Cuylle moving over to let a rookie have a more natural transition is also an option. For a Berard or an Othmann, that might be the best decision we can make. 

 

Though, your point about a logjam is well taken. We're deeper at LW than...I'd guess most any system in the league.

 

Possibly, sure, but again, we're assuming that these players can just do it seamlessly. I'm not sure that's all that realistic an idea. I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone before Lafreniere who moved and was as successful (or more successful). If you spend your whole career on one side, moving isn't a video game — it inverts your world. The boards are on the "wrong" side of your body. Every instinct you've grown accustomed to for your hockey-playing life is "wrong." I get why this is a problem. It's why I'm hoping the AHL club can be used as a training ground to potentially transition one or two of these guys over.

[LindG1000]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I don't personally blame Kakko. It's not like he chose it.

 

The org has clearly made several of these decisions under the influence of investing in him though, and I'm saying if the org is in a spot where they have to choose between a fit on the roster, and paying to keep hoping in Kakko w/o justification, then they can't do that anymore.

 

Hypothetically, let's say Kakko doesn't do much more than he's doing now, say 6-8 points in the last 21 games, and over the same span Roslovic finishes with 14-16 points in the last 21 games. Roslovic wants $5m on his next deal and the only real way you can swing that is to not pay Kakko half that. Are you punting Roslovic and keeping Kakko?

Your point stands that we shouldn't let Kakko keep standing in the way of fixing 1RW. He either needs to shit or get off the pot there. Still, this is a market that has some room for $5m to perhaps go "further" than Jack Roslovic, so I wouldn't make the choice of looking at this as an either-or. I'd rather look at it asking what $5m gets us in a flooded UFA market.

[Phil]

1 minute ago, LindG1000 said:

Your point stands that we shouldn't let Kakko keep standing in the way of fixing 1RW. He either needs to shit or get off the pot there. Still, this is a market that has some room for $5m to perhaps go "further" than Jack Roslovic, so I wouldn't make the choice of looking at this as an either-or. I'd rather look at it asking what $5m gets us in a flooded UFA market.

 

What? No. If you're worried about another Brendan Smith scenario, I guess I can understand some reservation, but what options at RW are flooding this market who you just implicitly trust more than a player who, in this scenario, showed actual, tangible chemistry and produced in the role he was acquired to produce in?

 

Marchessault is 33. Perron is 36. Toffoli is 32. Duchene is 33. Kane is 35. Tarasenko is 32.

 

What wrong-side-of-30 player are you marrying instead of the 27-year-old who just proved it (again, in this scenario).

[LindG1000]

10 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

What? No. If you're worried about another Brendan Smith scenario, I guess I can understand some reservation, but what options at RW are flooding this market who you just implicitly trust more than a player who, in this scenario, showed actual, tangible chemistry and produced in the role he was acquired to produce in?

 

Marchessault is 33. Perron is 36. Toffoli is 32. Duchene is 33. Kane is 35. Tarasenko is 32.

 

What wrong-side-of-30 player are you marrying instead of the 27-year-old who just proved it (again, in this scenario).

 

I'm not saying Roslovic is or isn't the answer. I'm saying that this UFA market is rather unique because of the cap considerations many players made last year, so if you're going to plunk $5m on a guy, you have options. Lots of them.

 

And if you're in the $5m range, you're in range for a lot of different options of varying timelines and skills. And that may crunch further as the 2024-25 cap picture becomes clear. For me, the question is more along the lines of "If I decide I have $5m to spend, is the best answer right in front of us, and is it Jack Roslovic?"

 

Or is it Mantha? Or is it Arvidsson? Or is the market crunch just enough to make Toffoli or Tarasenko options? Do we want someone a bit more multifaceted and think about Sean Monahan or Matt Duchene or Joe Pavelski? Maybe we go a smidge downmarket and grab Debrusk. Or maybe we can use Kakko and the 1st rounder to pull a solid RW out from a team on the precipice of a rebuild that makes around the $5m mark?

[Phil]

30 minutes ago, LindG1000 said:

 

I'm not saying Roslovic is or isn't the answer. I'm saying that this UFA market is rather unique because of the cap considerations many players made last year, so if you're going to plunk $5m on a guy, you have options. Lots of them.

 

And if you're in the $5m range, you're in range for a lot of different options of varying timelines and skills. And that may crunch further as the 2024-25 cap picture becomes clear. For me, the question is more along the lines of "If I decide I have $5m to spend, is the best answer right in front of us, and is it Jack Roslovic?"

 

Or is it Mantha? Or is it Arvidsson? Or is the market crunch just enough to make Toffoli or Tarasenko options? Do we want someone a bit more multifaceted and think about Sean Monahan or Matt Duchene or Joe Pavelski? Maybe we go a smidge downmarket and grab Debrusk. Or maybe we can use Kakko and the 1st rounder to pull a solid RW out from a team on the precipice of a rebuild that makes around the $5m mark?

 

In the scenario we're discussing, Roslovic produces and shows real chemistry with Kreider & Zib. I'm entirely good with not asking if the grass is greener with a flooded market of mostly older and slower RWs who may or may not show the same chemistry and/or produce with these two.

 

$4.5Mx3 feels like exactly the kind of deal he'd sign to stick with a winner.

 

 

[jsm7302]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

In the scenario we're discussing, Roslovic produces and shows real chemistry with Kreider & Zib. I'm entirely good with not asking if the grass is greener with a flooded market of mostly older and slower RWs who may or may not show the same chemistry and/or produce with these two.

 

$4.5Mx3 feels like exactly the kind of deal he'd sign to stick with a winner.

Anything that closes this gap for as long as we have CK20, MZ and Panarin. If Roslovic clicks, I don't let him walk. Look at Tro and Bread; took them a season to get comfortable. We don't have the luxury of time with this core.

[Phil]

Just now, jsm7302 said:

Anything that closes this gap for as long as we have CK20, MZ and Panarin. If Roslovic clicks, I don't let him walk. Look at Tro and Bread; took them a season to get comfortable. We don't have the luxury of time with this core.

 

Exactly. It's technically two years beyond this on Panarin with one major decision to make on Shesterkin next year. This type of extension would likely span "the window."

[Pete]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

There seems to be a misunderstanding here. I don't personally blame Kakko. It's not like he chose it.

 

The org has clearly made several of these decisions under the influence of investing in him though, and I'm saying if the org is in a spot where they have to choose between a fit on the roster, and paying to keep hoping in Kakko w/o justification, then they can't do that anymore.

 

Hypothetically, let's say Kakko doesn't do much more than he's doing now, say 6-8 points in the last 21 games, and over the same span Roslovic finishes with 14-16 points in the last 21 games. Roslovic wants $5m on his next deal and the only real way you can swing that is to not pay Kakko half that. Are you punting Roslovic and keeping Kakko?

Gotcha. When I was reading it in my head it sounded so strange and that's why I asked.

 

I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree with the sentiment behind it, but my POV is still... If you want 40 points on the third line you're probably spending what you're spending on Kakko anyway. So why not continue to invest in Kakko? There's a chance you get a bigger return on that investment then on a 29-year-old free agent. 

 

If Roslovic pops off on the top line, You can afford his raise just by not resigning Gus and Wheeler. I don't see him and Kakko as competing for the same role, different scenario than Vatrano. I also don't see any internal candidates for either role next season. I'm not sold on the idea that you can just keep moving your left wings to the right side.

 

It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out, because with any luck they will both excel in their current role and make it a really tough decision. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

 

I don't read any of this as hate. It's criticism. Hate is what I have for Adam Henrique and Alec Martinez. What's happening with Kakko isn't at that level. It's an audible sigh. It's the "I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed" you get from your parents as a teenager who fucked up.

I hear you.

 

When I talk to my kid after his games I tell him I'll never criticize his performance, only his level of effort. That's how I feel about Kakko. He's obviously doing everything in his power to get better. He doesn't take shifts off. His effort level is consistent and high.

 

I still see moments that have me thinking help put it all together. I don't want him putting it together for another team. 

[jsm7302]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

I hear you.

 

When I talk to my kid after his games I tell him I'll never criticize his performance, only his level of effort. That's how I feel about Kakko. He's obviously doing everything in his power to get better. He doesn't take shifts off. His effort level is consistent and high.

 

I still see moments that have me thinking help put it all together. I don't want him putting it together for another team. 

You must love Jonny Brodz. I do for all those reasons.

[Vodka Drunkenski]

2 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

It’s insane how much Kakko has cost this franchise. He cost them a 2nd overall pick, keeping Pavel Buchnevich, and keeping one of a myriad of better wingers and players. All under the guise of he just needed opportunity.

 

If Roslovic hits, and Kakko is Kakko, rest of season, enough is enough. No more losses because of Kakko.

I think Kakko is gone this offseason regardless of what he does from here on

[jsm7302]

4 minutes ago, Vodka Drunkenski said:

I think Kakko is gone this offseason regardless of what he does from here on

I think a new start could serve him well.

[Phil]

41 minutes ago, Pete said:

I hear you.

 

When I talk to my kid after his games I tell him I'll never criticize his performance, only his level of effort. That's how I feel about Kakko. He's obviously doing everything in his power to get better. He doesn't take shifts off. His effort level is consistent and high.

 

I still see moments that have me thinking help put it all together. I don't want him putting it together for another team. 

 

I don't either, but I also want to win, and the more expensive mediocre players get, the harder it is to do that with them on your roster. As far as trustworthy players who won't hurt you on the ice go, he's about as good as it gets, but it's hard to justify investing in that when the team so badly needs impact on the right side.

 

This is all hypothetical, too — it's relative to Roslovic in this case, or generally speaking, but I'm definitely not completely adverse from the idea of moving on from him if the team thinks it can better use the cap room to draw in more impact.

[Pete]

33 minutes ago, jsm7302 said:

You must love Jonny Brodz. I do for all those reasons.

I don't mind him but he's 30 not 23. I don't see him with bigger contributions the way I think Kakko can. 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

I don't either, but I also want to win, and the more expensive mediocre players get, the harder it is to do that with them on your roster. As far as trustworthy players who won't hurt you on the ice go, he's about as good as it gets, but it's hard to justify investing in that when the team so badly needs impact on the right side.

 

This is all hypothetical, too — it's relative to Roslovic in this case, or generally speaking, but I'm definitely not completely adverse from the idea of moving on from him if the team thinks it can better use the cap room to draw in more impact.

You need players like him to win. He's still low cost. I don't see him getting more than 3 to 3.5 on his next deal.

 

And when I keep coming back to is, who are you replacing him with internally? Or as a UFA? The only way to do it is with hockey trade. In what world is somebody going to give us a better player for him? We have to give up more assets to improve on that, and how much better of a player do you think you're getting on the third line with no power play time? Do you think you're going to get a 50, 60, 70-point guy there?

 

3 RW is solidified. You need to go get a 1 RW and he's not stopping you from doing that. 

[Phil]

29 minutes ago, Pete said:

You need players like him to win. He's still low cost. I don't see him getting more than 3 to 3.5 on his next deal.

 

And when I keep coming back to is, who are you replacing him with internally? Or as a UFA? The only way to do it is with hockey trade. In what world is somebody going to give us a better player for him? We have to give up more assets to improve on that, and how much better of a player do you think you're getting on the third line with no power play time? Do you think you're going to get a 50, 60, 70-point guy there?

 

3 RW is solidified. You need to go get a 1 RW and he's not stopping you from doing that. 

 

I don't think he's getting even that much. I think he's honestly going to get hard balled into signing his QO because arbitration won't favor him. He was hurt this year, but he's a full tenth of a point under his career P/GP average. So, in a way, this goes to maybe just keeping him for another year.

 

At this number, he's probably not stopping them from keeping Roslovic (or whoever else), but it's possible they'll need to shave off the margins depending on what happens with Lindgren (and Shesterkin). That, fairly or unfairly, puts bottom-sixers in the crosshairs because we're still a year away from the Kreider and Trouba clause shifts.

[The Dude]

5 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Unless he has a really strong finish here, it's hard to see Kakko getting more than his $2.4m QO on a 1 year deal. He has 12 points in 42 games. Is he really going to reject the QO and go arb? I think he'd get absolutely dragged through the coals. 1 x 2.4 is fair.

 

If Roslovic shows as a fit for KZ, you probably pay him and make the move. The Rangers have several players who can take Kakko's spot on the 3rd line next year.

 

I wouldn't bet on Roslovic being the answer, but I'm just saying if he turns out to be. Again, there should be no more losing good fits on the roster because they have to make space for Kakko's contract. The org will need to move past that should it come down to it.

I'm down on Kakko, but think he's going to play his best hockey of the year on the 3rdcline, going down the stretch here.  Even if he doesn't. I keep him over Roslovic. 

 

I'm scared the Rangers are going to be forced to push Kakko back up the lineup once he gets comfortable and rolling.  Just let him finish the season on the 3rd line where he's most comfortable and most productive.  Hopefully Roslovic works out and this isn't an issue.  

[Dem]

Just hit the bottle n pipe down Sam