Staple Ducks' Frank Vatrano and Adam Henrique on Rangers Radar

[Ozzy]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

He has literally never overpaid in a trade, outside of Buch. 

 

I still think the Buchnevich deal was kinda forced because of the cap crunch too.  Had Blais not gotten hurt, I think that deal may have looked a little better.  But it is what it is.

 

I trust Drury to be pretty slick here.

Edited February 5 by Ozzy

[Pete]

Just now, Ozzy said:

 

I still think the Buchnevich deal was kinda forced because of the cap crunch too.  Had Blais not gotten hurt, I think that deal may have looked a little better.  But it si what it is.

 

I trust Drury to be pretty slick here.

Oh, they definitely should have traded him based on what was going on at the time, but they should have gotten a better return, higher picks. 

Edited February 5 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

He has literally never overpaid in a trade, outside of Buch. 

 

I don't think what I wrote is an overpay. It's what those guys are worth on the market half-retained. It's just a bad choice, and Drury has made a lot of those.

[Sharpshooter]

Agreed. The trades Drury has made, everyone here would do in that spot too. The only real big blunders for me is the bad return for Buch and the Goodrow contract. Outside of that, he's done okay.

[Pete]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't think what I wrote is an overpay. It's what those guys are worth on the market half-retained. It's just a bad choice, and Drury has made a lot of those.

Gotcha... Well, I disagree that it's not an overpayment. That's a lot for those guys. I also don't think he's made a lot of bad choices by a long shot. So we can agree to disagree on this topic.

[BrooksBurner]

Just now, Pete said:

Gotcha... Well, I disagree that it's not an overpayment. That's a lot for those guys. I also don't think he's made a lot of bad choices by a long shot. So we can agree to disagree on this topic.

 

Henrique is worth a 1st and a good prospect. The market has set that value, and given he's the best rental C left by a long shot now, there might even be a slight premium.

 

Vatrano at 50% through next season is worth a 1st+ also.

 

They are easily looking at 2 1sts + prospects for that package. Maybe you save Perreault, but it costs you 1st/1st/Berard/?? instead.

[Drew a Penalty]

11 minutes ago, Pete said:

They both project to be bottom six forwards and they're tiny. The Rangers don't have picks. They're going to have to give something up to get these players.

 

If your solution is just not to make a trade because you don't want to give up these guys, then that's not a solution. They clearly have holes to fill today. 

 

This fanbase has a habit of overvaluing and falling in love with dime a dozen players. There's nothing special about these guys that can't be replaced. 

 

I'm not saying to trade both of them, but saying you wouldn't trade either of them is pretty ridiculous. 

 

Sykora is 5'11" and 192 at 19. He's not tiny and doesn't play that way.

 

I don't make this particular trade. I don't think Henrique is worth the bidding war that's likely being had for his services and throwing Vatrano in only raises the cost of this trade. It's not just trading Berard or Sykora I have issue with, it's that you're also trading them along with whatever draft capital for two players who aren't worth that package. I'd pay more for a player or players who actually have longer-term impact. It's not that I wouldn't make any trade, but definitely not this trade.

 

This team has an organization-wide speed problem. Sykora and Berard are likely on the team within the next year to year and a half. They're what the team has been missing. If I'm moving either it's in a deal that addresses their speed issue going forward as well. This deal ain't it.

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Henrique is worth a 1st and a good prospect. The market has set that value, and given he's the best rental C left by a long shot now, there might even be a slight premium.

 

Vatrano at 50% through next season is worth a 1st+ also.

 

They are easily looking at 2 1sts + prospects for that package. Maybe you save Perreault, but it costs you 1st/1st/Berard/?? instead.

Drury has included very few prospects in deadline deals. I believe the only one in recent memory was Morgan Barron, IIRC? 

 

I doubt he's trades what many consider the best prospect in the organization. That would be the overpayment. You're already giving a first, you don't need to give your best prospect as well. 

Edited February 5 by Pete

[Phil]

It's not gospel, but just to reiterate, according to the latest Vince pod, Drury/Rangers are far more likely to trade picks than players they've selected.

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

Drury has included very few prospects in deadline deals. I believe the only one in recent memory was Morgan Barron, IIRC? 

 

I doubt he's trades what many consider the best prospect in the organization. That would be the overpayment. You're already giving a first, you don't need to give your best prospect as well. 

 

Well, he's been running himself out of expendable draft capital in lieu of that. The options for putting together a package have thinned out.

 

You've got two players worth a 1st+ each in Henrique/Vatrano, half-retained, and half-retained is the only way it works unless a Kakko is going back.

Edited February 5 by BrooksBurner

[Drew a Penalty]

Just now, Phil said:

It's not gospel, but just to reiterate, according to the latest Vince pod, Drury/Rangers are far more likely to trade picks than players they've selected.

 

And I'm far more likely to trust what Vince says over Staple. One is plugged in. The other is not.

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

Sykora is 5'11" and 192 at 19. He's not tiny and doesn't play that way.

 

I don't make this particular trade. I don't think Henrique is worth the bidding war that's likely being had for his services and throwing Vatrano in only raises the cost of this trade. It's not just trading Berard or Sykora I have issue with, it's that you're also trading them along with whatever draft capital for two players who aren't worth that package. I'd pay more for a player or players who actually have longer-term impact. It's not that I wouldn't make any trade, but definitely not this trade.

 

This team has an organization-wide speed problem. Sykora and Berard are likely on the team within the next year to year and a half. They're what the team has been missing. If I'm moving either it's in a deal that addresses their speed issue going forward as well. This deal ain't it.

Sorry but I'm not letting a couple of bottom six wingers get in the way of fixing two glaring problems for this season.

 

I'd be more reluctant to part with Sykora, but again saying that you wouldn't trade either of them in a deal to address today's problems is pretty ridiculous. 

[Drew a Penalty]

Just now, Pete said:

Sorry but I'm not letting a couple of bottom six wingers get in the way of fixing two glaring problems for this season.

 

I'd be more reluctant to part with Sykora, but again saying that you wouldn't trade either of them in a deal to address today's problems is pretty ridiculous. 

 

I don't think Henrique and/or Vatrano adequately enough address the Rangers' problems. That's my issue. And I don't believe you like either of them enough either. So what's the problem here?

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Well, he's been running himself out of expendable draft capital in lieu of that. The options for putting together a package have thinned out.

 

You've got two players worth a 1st+ each in Henrique/Vatrano, half-retained, and half-retained is the only way it works unless a Kakko is going back.

Agree with the molded, however that doesn't mean he's going to include his best prospect. That's why I'm suggesting Sykora or Berard. 

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

I don't think Henrique and/or Vatrano adequately enough address the Rangers' problems. That's my issue. And I don't believe you like either of them enough either. So what's the problem here?

Who has a problem? I'm discussing the deal as presented in the thread. I'm saying who I would be comfortable giving up given the parameters. They don't have enough picks to trade, so they're going to have to trade a player/prospect. I'm comfortable moving Jones and Sykora or Berard, plus some lower value picks assuming this trade is going down.

 

I'm not debating whether or not they should make the trade, I'm operating as if the trade is happening and discussing who I'm willing to part with. 

 

Seems like your stance is you don't want to give up those guys because it doesn't address an issue that sits on the periphery. The biggest issue facing the team right now is a third line center and RW for MZ/CK. That's where the bleeding is, that's what needs to be fixed... Not a perceived speed issue that they aren't going to help fix for another year and a half. 

Edited February 5 by Pete

[RichieNextel305]

Do we think a Sykora/Jones/Picks combination gets the job done as far as landing the 2 of these guys with some retention? I don’t see a way that gets the job done unless a 1st is being offered.

Edited February 5 by RichieNextel305

[Drew a Penalty]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Who has a problem? I'm discussing the deal as presented in the thread. I'm saying who I would be comfortable giving up given the parameters. They don't have enough picks to trade, so they're going to have to trade a player/prospect. I'm comfortable moving Jones and Sykora or Berard, plus some lower value picks assuming this trade is going down.

 

I'm not debating whether or not they should make the trade, I'm operating as if the trade is happening and discussing who I'm willing to part with. 

 

Seems like your stance is you don't want to give up those guys because it doesn't address an issue that sits on the periphery. The biggest issue facing the team right now is a third line center and RW for MZ/CK. That's where the bleeding is, that's what needs to be fixed... Not a perceived speed issue that they aren't going to help fix for another year and a half. 

 

Except the trade wouldn't be Jones plus Sykora/Berard and some lower-value picks. Given the Monahan and Lindholm returns, do you seriously think Henrique plus Vatrano with an extra year is worth a package you've called scraps before in a separate context? There's going to at least be a first-round pick in this deal. That's another issue I take with it. This deal is going to cost more than Henrique and Vatrano are truly worth. I have no problem trading Berard or Sykora. I'm not trading them in addition to a first-round pick and whatever else for two players I don't think move the needle enough.

[Pete]

Just now, Drew a Penalty said:

 

Except the trade wouldn't be Jones plus Sykora/Berard and some lower-value picks. Given the Monahan and Lindholm returns, do you seriously think Henrique plus Vatrano with an extra year is worth a package you've called scraps before in a separate context? There's going to at least be a first-round pick in this deal. That's another issue I take with it. This deal is going to cost more than Henrique and Vatrano are truly worth. I have no problem trading Berard or Sykora. I'm not trading them in addition to a first-round pick and whatever else for two players I don't think move the needle enough.

Okay, that's great that you have that opinion. Mine is different. What's the problem? 

[jsm7302]

1 minute ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Do we think a Sykora/Jones/Picks combination gets the job done as far as landing the 2 of these guys with some retention? 

I definitely see Jones or Robertson going the other way. I'm not sure about other prospects but I'd definitely be inclined to say, 1st and a second to go along with.

[Drew a Penalty]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Okay, that's great that you have that opinion. Mine is different. What's the problem? 

 

You started by quoting me. If you don't want so much of my opinion, don't keep asking for it. Nice cute ending, though.

[Phil]

3 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

Except the trade wouldn't be Jones plus Sykora/Berard and some lower-value picks. Given the Monahan and Lindholm returns, do you seriously think Henrique plus Vatrano with an extra year is worth a package you've called scraps before in a separate context? There's going to at least be a first-round pick in this deal. That's another issue I take with it. This deal is going to cost more than Henrique and Vatrano are truly worth. I have no problem trading Berard or Sykora. I'm not trading them in addition to a first-round pick and whatever else for two players I don't think move the needle enough.

 

It's probably a conditional 1st. Drury's made his firsts conditional in numerous trades, and it feels entirely appropriate for this player/players.

[RichieNextel305]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

It's probably a conditional 1st. Drury's made his firsts conditional in numerous trades, and it feels entirely appropriate for this player/players.

I wonder if:

 

2 draft picks: 1 pick is a 2nd that turns into a 1st if the Rangers get out of the 1st Round. And a 3rd that turns into a 2nd next year if the Rangers make it to the Finals.

 

I wonder if by offering those 2 Conditional Picks, a prospect like Sykora and a player who could step right into their blue line in Jones would be enough to get the job done.

 

Protects the prospects like Othmann and Perrault. Fail safe plan because if we fall apart in the playoffs like last year, we retain our first but if we so much as win a Round, Anaheim obtains at least a 1st/3rd combo, which could be a 1st/2nd combo if we win the East, at which point I think we would all be okay.

Edited February 5 by RichieNextel305

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

 

You started by quoting me. If you don't want so much of my opinion, don't keep asking for it. Nice cute ending, though.

[BrooksBurner]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

It's probably a conditional 1st. Drury's made his firsts conditional in numerous trades, and it feels entirely appropriate for this player/players.

 

Anaheim should be able to get 1sts outright in separate trades for Henrique and Vatrano half-retained. I don't see them reducing the price to trade them in the same deal when they don't have to.

 

A non-Perreault/Othmann price I imagine is in the neighborhood of 1st/1st/Berard/Jones.

[siddious]

3 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

I wonder if:

 

2 draft picks: 1 pick is a 2nd that turns into a 1st if the Rangers get out of the 1st Round. And a 3rd that turns into a 2nd next year if the Rangers make it to the Finals.

 

I wonder if by offering those 2 Conditional Picks, a prospect like Sykora and a player who could step right into their blue line in Jones would be enough to get the job done.

 

Protects the prospects like Othmann and Perrault. Fail safe plan because if we fall apart in the playoffs like last year, we retain our first but if we so much as win a Round, Anaheim obtains at least a 1st/3rd combo, which could be a 1st/2nd combo if we win the East, at which point I think we would all be okay.

I think this is close to what it will end up being.