Is There a Culture Issue?

[Dem]

Last night was not a system problem IMO. It's a combo of lack of effort (personnel problem) and a lot of players who continually make poor decisions then keep getting top ice time (coaching/personnel problem). 

 

Laviolette cannot fix personnel issues. What he can do is not dress people w poor effort and or cannot make good decisions.

 

Personally I would have Panarin and Miller in the press box for 5 games as a start. A message needs to be sent now not halfway through the season. Remember when Keenan didn't dress Messier. Shocking to all but it sent a message to the players. A message needs to be sent here

Edited October 20, 2023 by Dem

[Br4d]

22 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

If the culture is the issue, it’s Panarin and/or Zibanejad that need to be moved to start correcting it. These are the two best forwards and they have not shown that balls to the wall killer mentality that is required. Maybe you can get away with one of these guys near the top of the lineup, but two on two separate lines sets the tone and style for the entire top 6.

 

The Rangers 4 best players are Panarin, Fox, Zibanejad and Shesterkin.

 

3 of those guys share a play style and mentality and they absolutely set the pace for the Rangers.

 

Only one of them is tradeable right now.

 

BTW, I get that Fox is not really tradeable but to fix the problem the Rangers have right now they need to fix it at the top of the food chain.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Br4d

[BrooksBurner]

17 minutes ago, Pete said:

And since neither are getting traded, especially in season, moot point. 

Not in season, agree there. Offseason is a different story should the team disappoint.

[Ozzy]

This thread may be even funnier than the GDT from last night! 

 

4 games into the season, fellas....time to pump the brakes on the "rebuild"!  LOL

 

I'll tell you one thing though...I hope Laviolette ordered 1,000 pucks, placed them on the blue line and made these guys shoot until their fucking arms fell off today.

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

The Rangers 4 best players are Panarin, Fox, Zibanejad and Shesterkin.

 

3 of those guys share a play style and mentality and they absolutely set the pace for the Rangers.

 

Only one of them is tradeable right now.

 

BTW, I get that Fox is not really tradeable but to fix the problem the Rangers have right now they need to fix it at the top of the food chain.

I get that, but I just feel like it doesn’t accomplish anything to trade Fox if the “forward leaders” are still here. There’s too much kinship and cliques at the top with the guys we have. It’d really just have to be ripped apart.

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

This thread may be even funnier than the GDT from last night! 

 

4 games into the season, fellas....time to pump the brakes on the "rebuild"!  LOL

 

I'll tell you one thing though...I hope Laviolette ordered 1,000 pucks, placed them on the blue line and made these guys shoot until their fucking arms fell off today.

 

 

I hear you Ozzy but it’s years with this group of players. It took 4 games to not bother to show up for the new coach lol

[Br4d]

Just now, BrooksBurner said:

I get that, but I just feel like it doesn’t accomplish anything to trade Fox if the “forward leaders” are still here. There’s too much kinship and cliques at the top with the guys we have. It’d really just have to be ripped apart.

 

I totally get that.

 

I'm just dreading a 91 point season that gets ousted in 6 games if we're lucky.

[jsm7302]

1 minute ago, Ozzy said:

This thread may be even funnier than the GDT from last night! 

 

4 games into the season, fellas....time to pump the brakes on the "rebuild"!  LOL

 

I'll tell you one thing though...I hope Laviolette ordered 1,000 pucks, placed them on the blue line and made these guys shoot until their fucking arms fell off today.

 

 

Spot on. Take the positives we've seen. They are gunna work on the negatives and we will see a regular product on the ice about 20-30 games into the season. We know the warts this crew has. The same crew that was in the ECF two years ago. The experience is here with hard losses and some successes. We shouldn't be knocking this unless we miss the playoffs. Rock on Lavi!! Take these boys through the season and teach em how to play together successfully. I'm happy with what I've seen this far even with the stinkers. I'm confident we have more points in April than the past couple of years.

[RJWantsTheCup]

Zibanejad isn't tradeable?  What team doesn't want a point a game, 40 goal scoring,  2 way center?

[Ozzy]

I may be one of the few that feels this way, but I gotta tell ya...

 

A lot of us guys that welcomed this coaching change expected this to be the case for the immediate future.  This is exactly the shit I expected.  We're gonna have some good games, some blah games, and some wet Hippo shit like last night.  These are the growing pains to be expected from a team that's had absolutely ZERO direction over the last 4 seasons.  It's cool, don't sweat it boys!

 

It's not like they're not trying like game 7 last year.  This is way different.

 

I gave this shit until Thanksgiving.  Yeah that may sound like a long time, but is it??  Last year it wasn't until December when Troubs did the "Helmet-Throw", and we spun everything around to make a playoff run.

 

I expect this team to come together, albeit not as fast as some of you guys want it...but they will.  Mark my words.  They have the talent and the personnel...They also have the coach to do it!

 

Just bite the bullet for now and when this shit comes to fruition, you're gonna say...Hey that old, crazy asshole called this one!

[Br4d]

1 minute ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Zibanejad isn't tradeable?  What team doesn't want a point a game, 40 goal scoring,  2 way center?

 

NMC.

 

He'd be very tradeable if the Rangers could shop him.

[RJWantsTheCup]

3 minutes ago, Br4d said:

 

NMC.

 

He'd be very tradeable if the Rangers could shop him.

Gotcha.  I wouldn't trade him anyway.  Rangers have been searching for a #1 center for years.  No reason to trade 1 when you finally have it.

[Ozzy]

12 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I hear you Ozzy but it’s years with this group of players. It took 4 games to not bother to show up for the new coach lol

 

I'm not so sure it's them not showing up.  When I saw them live they look confused out there.  I was watching a lot of the stuff the camera doesn't get on TV.  They are really trying hard to get this shit.

 

The coaches were answering questions all game long, and Housley looked like he was gonna have an aneurysm when he was talking to K' Andre and Gustaffson after a shift in the second period.

 

The one thing that was really cool is that I never actually heard the players on the ice so vocal.  I was telling @RJWantsTheCup RJ the other day the same thing;  Lindgren was so vocally loud, you could actually hear him yelling to the forwards on the ice to "Move the fuck over"!   He did it several times too!

 

There's no doubt, they're trying to get used to this whole new system thing, but it's painfully obvious that's it's going to be a while.

 

This core is very talented and trading away a #1 Center and a Norris trophy defenseman is not the answer to any of this.  I know you know that, but we're gonna see that shit up here from time to time.  We all get frustrated and I do as well.  I hate seeing them play like camel twat, but this is gonna take some time.

 

Be patient, this shit's gonna sort itself out in time.  When it does, I think we're going to see what we saw in that Buffalo game on a much more consistent basis!

[Br4d]

6 minutes ago, RJWantsTheCup said:

Gotcha.  I wouldn't trade him anyway.  Rangers have been searching for a #1 center for years.  No reason to trade 1 when you finally have it.

 

He's not my first choice to send packing however there are two things that make the idea not completely crazy.  First of all, he's not a great even strength Center.  He's good when he's good and he's damn near invisible for long stretches also at even strength.  Secondly, the Rangers have a couple of other players who are similar value at even strength in Vincent Trocheck and Filip Chytil.  Neither of them is the entire package that Zibanejad is but both of them are within spitting difference at even strength.

 

Now Zib will probably get hot, like he can, and I'll regret the statements above.  I really hope that's what happens.

 

His numbers last year at even strength vs the teams that made the playoffs were pretty bad.  Like 4 goals and 17 assists bad as I recall.  He chewed up the other teams though.

[Pete]

This team gets along with each other too well! Gotta tear that up!

 

Only Rangers fans

[BrooksBurner]

6 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

I'm not so sure it's them not showing up.  When I saw them live they look confused out there.  I was watching a lot of the stuff the camera doesn't get on TV.  They are really trying hard to get this shit.

 

The coaches were answering questions all game long, and Housley looked like he was gonna have an aneurysm when he was talking to K' Andre and Gustaffson after a shift in the second period.

 

The one thing that was really cool is that I never actually heard the players on the ice so vocal.  I was telling @RJWantsTheCup RJ the other day the same thing;  Lindgren was so vocally loud, you could actually hear him yelling to the forwards on the ice to "Move the fuck over"!   He did it several times too!

 

There's no doubt, they're trying to get used to this whole new system thing, but it's painfully obvious that's it's going to be a while.

 

This core is very talented and trading away a #1 Center and a Norris trophy defenseman is not the answer to any of this.  I know you know that, but we're gonna see that shit up here from time to time.  We all get frustrated and I do as well.  I hate seeing them play like camel twat, but this is gonna take some time.

 

Be patient, this shit's gonna sort itself out in time.  When it does, I think we're going to see what we saw in that Buffalo game on a much more consistent basis!

All a fair viewpoint. You know I disagreed with the route chosen this summer, but with the choice having already been made, I agree 100% we won’t know for a bit if it works. I’m not hair on fire right now, and I wouldn’t have started this thread myself, but more just having some conversation and talking in hypotheticals. I’m with you that it will be months before we have a clearer answer for sure one way or the other.

[Sharpshooter]

Holy overreaction Batman. I don't want them moving any of their top players. Zib and Panarin are getting older, but still two of the most productive players in the league and their two best players that is not a goaltender. (Well, Fox too) If they totally flop and miss the playoffs entirely, we'll revisit all of this then. But now? Yeah, no.

[Ozzy]

11 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

All a fair viewpoint. You know I disagreed with the route chosen this summer, but with the choice having already been made, I agree 100% we won’t know for a bit if it works. I’m not hair on fire right now, and I wouldn’t have started this thread myself, but more just having some conversation and talking in hypotheticals. I’m with you that it will be months before we have a clearer answer for sure one way or the other.

 

I do...and that's totally cool!  I'm pretty sure you know that this "adjustment period" was going to be the downside of that change.

 

I tried to think of it this way:  If the Rangers played their first game in Buffalo like last night, and then played last night's game like the Buffalo game, are we having the same feelings about the team today?  My answer is no.  But it's all about progress, right?

 

We don't wanna see ourselves going "backwards".  Last night did us no favors in that reagard!!  LOL

 

The point is that unfortunately for us, "progress" is going to have more than a few bumps and bruises along the way.  Last night was a glaring example of a shit show "bump".  I wish I could say it won't happen again, but it will!! 

 

You rock my man!!  Hang tough, we'll get through this soon!! 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Ozzy

[BrooksBurner]

23 minutes ago, Pete said:

This team gets along with each other too well! Gotta tear that up!

 

Only Rangers fans

There’s truth in it if the team isn’t good enough though. The desire to be great has to be a shared team goal and vision.

[RJWantsTheCup]

There's definitely going to be an adjustment period, but looking bad against 3 shit teams in a row now is worrisome.  Giving it to November/Thanksgiving sounds great but this a very competitive league.  Leaving points on the table because a team can't figure out a system isn't acceptable.  Look at the Islanders when they started that season on the road while the new arena was built.  They never recovered from starting off bad and missed the playoffs.  This team only has so many kicks at the can with this core.

[RangersIn7]

1 hour ago, BrooksBurner said:

If the culture is the issue, it’s Panarin and/or Zibanejad that need to be moved to start correcting it. These are the two best forwards and they have not shown that balls to the wall killer mentality that is required. Maybe you can get away with one of these guys near the top of the lineup, but two on two separate lines sets the tone and style for the entire top 6.

They said all that stuff about guys like Yzerman and Modano too.

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

7 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

They said all that stuff about guys like Yzerman and Modano too.

 

 

I’m not they.
 

The Wings didn’t win a thing until they traded a significant chunk for a HOF power forward in his prime by the name of Brendan Shanahan.

 

Modano was in his 20s. Panarin and Zibanejad are in their 30s. It’s a different convo.

[RangersIn7]

40 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

I’m not they.
 

The Wings didn’t win a thing until they traded a significant chunk for a HOF power forward in his prime by the name of Brendan Shanahan.

 

Modano was in his 20s. Panarin and Zibanejad are in their 30s. It’s a different convo.

Not calling you out

Simply pointing it out.

 

 

[fletch]

5 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

A bunch of us have said it all summer that the overwhelming odds were and are that this team’s issues weren’t going to be fixed by swapping coaches. It was a desperation move. That point remains, and now we are stuck in the boat where we absolutely have to wait longer than 4 games to see if anything takes hold. Is it going to be a waste of a year? Yeah, probably, but it’s too early to say definitively.

 

You need until January or Februray, and if they are in playoff position, you won’t know a damn thing until round 1 of the playoffs. I would have expected things to look worse before they look better, if they do get better. I expected last night to be how the first 3 games went, and probably the first month or two of the season, but that’s not been the case. They looked fairly competent given the changes until last night.

 

The other thing I’ll mention is there might have been a C and 5 letter As handed out, but I still don’t see a leader or assistant captain material in that group when there’s games like last night that have littered the org for the last several years with this core.

 

Here's a link to the conversation, mid-debate

https://www.blueshirtsbrotherhood.com/topic/24294-2022-23-off-season-thread-endless-pain-hatred-and-rage-also-boredom/page/47/

 

My short answer is it's too early to evaluate this team based on 4 games. 

 

There's a healthy disagreement among the forum how much of the on-ice results from the last few years should be blamed on:

1. the organization/Drury for roster construction

2. coaching for culture/system

3. players for results

 

I personally think that Gallant was a scape-goat for short-comings from the organization, coaching, and the players.  We don't have a Tkachuk or Perry or Bertuzzi that loves physical contact and does the dirty work in front of the net.  We have a roster full of players that prefer to play on the perimeter and make cross-ice passes.  Kreider is great at deflecting pucks, but would prefer to stand to the side, then to take the physical abuse to screen the goalie on the power play.  That's not his fault.  That's a roster construction issue if we don't have a skilled player willing to do the dirty work.  

 

The larger issue I have is that by continually blaming/firing coaches you are allowing the players to escape accountability for on-ice results.  Veteran players didn't show up in multiple games in the Devils series.  Do Kreider, Zib, and other veterans still have the fire to ratchet up their intensity for the playoffs, to match other teams that do?

 

It's not encouraging when the Rangers lack intensity, don't skate hard, don't forecheck, don't mark up in the defensive zone for a mid-week game in October.  It suggests that there isn't a locker room leader that demands better.  But ultimately, this team is going to be judged by whether they make the playoffs, and how far they advance.  And I'm hopeful that Kakko, Laf, Chytil will continue to develop and be more productive, and Shesterkin is sharp. 

 

It's hard to imagine the coach could be the scape-goat again, without Drury being replaced, and/or some significant roster moves.  Hopefully it won't come to that, and that this team has a deep playoff run this year.

 

[Albatrosss]

its too early to evaluate but last night they looked so much like the team that lost to the Devils in the last year's playoffs, it is scary.  

 

I really dont like the D pinching in so much under Lav.  I'm wishing for a more defensive system rather than offensive.  How many breakaway against can they give up?  Concentrate on defense, offense will come.  Lav will fail miserably if he doesnt implement a system with defense first mentality.