Is There a Culture Issue?

[RichieNextel305]

Listen, I’m not saying there is. I’m not saying there isn’t. I’m also not saying that it is too early to panic or not too early to panic. Quite frankly, the choice is yours as a fan. I’m just curious to see the thoughts of some here.

 

This is a talented roster. Sure, every single roster in the league has its flaws. Some more than others. But all in all, on paper, the Rangers have a very good team. They have elite players at many skill positions. They have played together for quite a bit now. They’ve been through wars, through good times and through bad times. 
 

They are on their 3rd coach. Quinn was not the one to take them over the hump. Gallant didn’t preach the X’s and O’s needed to adjust in-game. Now you are on to a guy in Laviolette who is capable of doing both of those, and who has taken other teams to the Finals and has won there. So the question I’m asking is, if this falls belly up, what then? It would likely fall at the feet of the players in the locker room; a sentiment that I feel some felt last year. And I was somewhat among them. While I agreed I saw warts with Gallant, who I was a fan of for the majority of his duration, and acknowledged that it was probably time to move on following the fallout that ensued in the days after elimination, I also saw some warts with the culture. I saw guys who maybe played a little soft, a little slow, got too down too fast when things didn’t pan out the way it was drawn up. I know it’s only 5 games in, and I’ve been beating the drum all along that it’s gonna take time to adjust to play the way Laviolette wants us to play. I fully expected and still expect there to be bumps. That being said, a total ghost show like tonight is something that no team should allow; especially on home ice.

 

So, what do you think? Too early? Still have PTSD from last year and believe there are underlying issues in the roster make up even beyond Laviolettes ability to fix?

Edited October 20, 2023 by RichieNextel305

[Gravesy]

It's a good, but not great roster.

It's tough to have a strong take on the culture from outside, but one of the fatal flaws in this roster in terms of real contention is that your core of good to great players are prone to taking nights off and complete disappearing acts. I don't know if that's down to culture, leadership or what but it's there. It's far too early to make a definitive call on whether Laviolette can fix it and whether his system can mitigate it in terms of helping this team win consistently even if their best players aren't firing. But I had my doubts going in to this season and they haven't been alleviated by what I've seen so far.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

Just fire Galla... Oh wait.

 

It's only 4 games in so I don't think we can read too much into these first few games, but so far it's the same old shit. Stars taking games off, the younger players struggling to take more responsibility and for some reason they have big problems scoring 5v5. Our star 1C is the main culprit here. He's just not close to dominant enough 5v5 and it's frustrating to watch because he's proved that he can if he wants.

 

Forechecking and team defense still looks to be big issues with this roster. That's two of the things the new coaching staff was supposed to fix. Hopefully they will over time, but I was sceptical to begin with and the first 4 games has not been convincing.

[JHS]

7 hours ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Listen, I’m not saying there is. I’m not saying there isn’t. I’m also not saying that it is too early to panic or not too early to panic. Quite frankly, the choice is yours as a fan. I’m just curious to see the thoughts of some here.

 

This is a talented roster. Sure, every single roster in the league has its flaws. Some more than others. But all in all, on paper, the Rangers have a very good team. They have elite players at many skill positions. They have played together for quite a bit now. They’ve been through wars, through good times and through bad times. 
 

They are on their 3rd coach. Quinn was not the one to take them over the hump. Gallant didn’t preach the X’s and O’s needed to adjust in-game. Now you are on to a guy in Laviolette who is capable of doing both of those, and who has taken other teams to the Finals and has won there. So the question I’m asking is, if this falls belly up, what then? It would likely fall at the feet of the players in the locker room; a sentiment that I feel some felt last year. And I was somewhat among them. While I agreed I saw warts with Gallant, who I was a fan of for the majority of his duration, and acknowledged that it was probably time to move on following the fallout that ensued in the days after elimination, I also saw some warts with the culture. I saw guys who maybe played a little soft, a little slow, got too down too fast when things didn’t pan out the way it was drawn up. I know it’s only 5 games in, and I’ve been beating the drum all along that it’s gonna take time to adjust to play the way Laviolette wants us to play. I fully expected and still expect there to be bumps. That being said, a total ghost show like tonight is something that no team should allow; especially on home ice.

 

So, what do you think? Too early? Still have PTSD from last year and believe there are underlying issues in the roster make up even beyond Laviolettes ability to fix?

I’ve wondered this too.  If this core goes through 3 coaches in basically 6 years then yes I do think the core is the problem.  The real issue is, and I can’t say what the locker room is like obviously, but the team collectively has 0 personality to it.  Each of the “core” comes across as boring and unlikable way more often than they instill a sense of “I love that guy.”  

[jsm7302]

2.5 good games is better than 1.5 bad games so I'm still confident in this team. Kreider said in his post game that they know the system already and they just need to move their feet more. They just had a bad night last night. Edmonton opened with a bad night; it doesn't mean there team is toast.

 

I see the flaws; last night looked like a hangover for some reason. I disagree about the young kids failing to move forward; Laf, Chytil and Cuylle have looked particularly well in the first four. Panarin is shooting more. Kreids is scoring. I'm still waiting for the 20 game mark to come to any conclusions, but so far I'm pretty happy to see them playing solid hockey more times than not. 

[Br4d]

1 hour ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Just fire Galla... Oh wait.

 

It's only 4 games in so I don't think we can read too much into these first few games, but so far it's the same old shit. Stars taking games off, the younger players struggling to take more responsibility and for some reason they have big problems scoring 5v5. Our star 1C is the main culprit here. He's just not close to dominant enough 5v5 and it's frustrating to watch because he's proved that he can if he wants.

 

Forechecking and team defense still looks to be big issues with this roster. That's two of the things the new coaching staff was supposed to fix. Hopefully they will over time, but I was sceptical to begin with and the first 4 games has not been convincing.

 

The Rangers are a mediocre 5v5 team and that's just not acceptable given the overall talent level.

 

This is the kind of thing you make a big move to correct.  Not a TDL rental.  The Rangers need a dominant personality to come in and change the way they think at even strength.

 

The problem is that all the NMC's limit the available moves.  The Rangers got double-screwed by the flat cap and the fact that they'd just given out a few outsized contracts just before it landed.

 

The scary thing is that the only main player they can move to send a message is Adam Fox and that would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[siddious]

Dominant personality is a good way of putting what they need. Too many passengers on this team. 
 

don’t get me wrong the coaching change is good but the team is still the same team. 

[Ducky]

Most teams have players that can take the puck and drive to the net. Rangers think pass first like they have no confidence in their ability 

[Br4d]

5 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Most teams have players that can take the puck and drive to the net. Rangers think pass first like they have no confidence in their ability 

 

Adam Fox penetrates nicely from above the circle and then he passes the puck.  Panarin makes a clean zone entry and then he circles above the circle and passes the puck.  Zibanejad sets up on his spot and then he either takes the one time or he passes back to the point to reset, he does this at even strength as well as on the powerplay.  Kakko puts together a nice drive from the corner or the boards and then he passes the puck.  Lafreniere continually tries to set other people up, his scoring opportunities are all from crashing the net when something is happening on the other side.

 

These guys set the tone for the team and almost everybody hums in tune.  None of these guys are worth warm catspit at even strength at this point.

[Sharpshooter]

I've certainly had my reservations about the core of this team in the past, but I'm going to hold up a little bit. While I do think the answer to your question is yes, I want to wait a bit before judging this group with this staff. Early season hockey can be pretty messy, I don't care who you are. I think we figured the first 15 games or so were probably going to be pretty sloppy, and that's exactly what they've been so far. If it's the middle of November, and they're still putting out efforts like they have against Arizona and Nashville, then panic can set in.

[RJWantsTheCup]

It's only 4 games in, but they are lucky to have 4 points against inferior teams.  Only game they truly looked good was against Buffalo.  Other than Trouba nobody is playing better than last season so far.   

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

1 hour ago, jsm7302 said:

I disagree about the young kids failing to move forward; Laf, Chytil and Cuylle have looked particularly well in the first four.

I don't necessarily disagree, but they still have 1 point each after 4 games (same with Kakko). They might be playing a bit better (or passing the eye-test better than before might be the right way to put it), but the production is still not there and at the end of the day that's what counts.

 

We had a relatively easy start and all the kids (Kakko, Laf, Chyts) plays in the top 6 now. I was really hoping at least one of them would have a great start with 4-5 points in the first 5 games, but no - same old, same old.

[BrooksBurner]

A bunch of us have said it all summer that the overwhelming odds were and are that this team’s issues weren’t going to be fixed by swapping coaches. It was a desperation move. That point remains, and now we are stuck in the boat where we absolutely have to wait longer than 4 games to see if anything takes hold. Is it going to be a waste of a year? Yeah, probably, but it’s too early to say definitively.

 

You need until January or Februray, and if they are in playoff position, you won’t know a damn thing until round 1 of the playoffs. I would have expected things to look worse before they look better, if they do get better. I expected last night to be how the first 3 games went, and probably the first month or two of the season, but that’s not been the case. They looked fairly competent given the changes until last night.

 

The other thing I’ll mention is there might have been a C and 5 letter As handed out, but I still don’t see a leader or assistant captain material in that group when there’s games like last night that have littered the org for the last several years with this core.

[jsm7302]

6 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but they still have 1 point each after 4 games (same with Kakko). They might be playing a bit better (or passing the eye-test better than before might be the right way to put it), but the production is still not there and at the end of the day that's what counts.

 

We had a relatively easy start and all the kids (Kakko, Laf, Chyts) plays in the top 6 now. I was really hoping at least one of them would have a great start with 4-5 points in the first 5 games, but no - same old, same old.

I had hoped the same as far as production but the eye test is good fortune teller predicting the points will come. 

[jsm7302]

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

A bunch of us have said it all summer that the overwhelming odds were and are that this team’s issues weren’t going to be fixed by swapping coaches. It was a desperation move. That point remains, and now we are stuck in the boat where we absolutely have to wait longer than 4 games to see if anything takes hold. Is it going to be a waste of a year? Yeah, probably, but it’s too early to say definitively.

 

You need until January or Februray, and if they are in playoff position, you won’t know a damn thing until round 1 of the playoffs. I would have expected things to look worse before they look better, if they do get better. I expected last night to be how the first 3 games went, and probably the first month or two of the season, but that’s not been the case. They looked fairly competent given the changes until last night.

 

The other thing I’ll mention is there might have been a C and 5 letter As handed out, but I still don’t see a leader or assistant captain material in that group when there’s games like last night that have littered the org for the last several years with this core.

I like Trouba as the C. He isn't hitting the panic button in game 4. However the A situation is nuts. Should've been very simple:

Trouba- C

Lindgren- A

Goodrow- A

 

^^ the only three that consistently bring passion.

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, jsm7302 said:

I like Trouba as the C. He isn't hitting the panic button in game 4. However the A situation is nuts. Should've been very simple:

Trouba- C

Lindgren- A

Goodrow- A

 

^^ the only three that consistently bring passion.

Trouba is an OK C. Still can’t believe Lindy doesn’t have a letter. The one guy you can unequivocally say leads by example. The issue with Goodrow is he’s a shit hockey player lol

[Phil]

It's not cultural, it's composition. This is largely the same team — the core, at least — for the last four years. The top guys are bipolar. They go through extremely high highs and depressingly low lows. The highs have us euphoric and the lows have us wanting to burn it to the ground using their bodies as kindling.

 

Unfortunately, that's not changing anytime soon. We're locked into this for the foreseeable future, most notably with Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox, and Kreider. The team goes as they go, because they play the most important roles and eat the most important minutes. This is why I've been so vocally behind the idea of injecting as much [American] muscle as possible into the lineup. When the talent fails to show up because they don't really feel like working hard tonight — which happens more than we'd like to admit — the muscle picks up the slack. It's what make signings like Trocheck's low-key great.

[Duguay10]

I still think this team is a boarder line playoff team. They may get the first or second WC spot, then who knows. Shesty gets hot and maybe we steal a round or two in the playoffs.

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, Phil said:

It's not cultural, it's mental. This is the same team, largely — the core, at least — for the last four years. And what that's shown us is that this team is bipolar. Extremely high highs, extremely low lows. The highs have us euphoric and the lows have us wanting to burn it to the ground. That's not changing anytime soon. We're largely locked into this for the forseeable future, most notably with Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox, and Kreider.

 

On a related note, this is the primary reason I'm behind injecting as much [American] muscle as possible into the lineup. When the talent fails to show up because they don't really feel like working hard tonight, the muscle picks up the slack. It's what make signings like Trocheck's low-key great.

This is such a bad take. They don't feel like working hard? Effort hasn't been an issue. Execution has. 

 

Trocheck is a low key great signing? Since when? The team was markedly better with Strome in Tro's spot. He chucks shots when others seem reluctant to, cool. "Muscle picking up the slack" is not a descriptor anyone would use for Trocheck... 

 

This is just another overreaction to a bad game. The fan base is just as bipolar as you're claiming the team is.

 

Again... 4 games. The beginning of the season always looks like this. It's a messy slog of inconsistency while the teams get their feet under them and make adjustments. 

 

Edmonton is 1-3. Philly is 3-1. The Devils won 1 game and Meier was already benched. It's October. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Pete

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

On a related note, this is the primary reason I'm behind injecting as much [American] muscle as possible into the lineup.

You got to let the Tkachuk dream go.

 

But I agree, too little muscle and "fuck you" mentality in this team right now. Cuylle and Othmann have it, but they're still just kids, they need someone to lead them into battle and we might have the worst top 6 in the league in that regard.

[BrooksBurner]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

It's not cultural, it's composition. This is largely the same team — the core, at least — for the last four years. The top guys are bipolar. They go through extremely high highs and depressingly low lows. The highs have us euphoric and the lows have us wanting to burn it to the ground using their bodies as kindling.

 

Unfortunately, that's not changing anytime soon. We're locked into this for the foreseeable future, most notably with Panarin, Zibanejad, Fox, and Kreider. The team goes as they go, because they play the most important roles and eat the most important minutes. This is why I've been so vocally behind the idea of injecting as much [American] muscle as possible into the lineup. When the talent fails to show up because they don't really feel like working hard tonight — which happens more than we'd like to admit — the muscle picks up the slack. It's what make signings like Trocheck's low-key great.

There’s human nature here too. Humans can’t be 110% every single game. It’s understandable to have a clunker here or there in a long season. The issue is the underlined, and I would add the fact that it sticks around with high frequency when the playoffs come around. It’s unimaginable that guys appear to take nights off in the playoffs. While it’s human nature to have a clunker when it doesn’t matter as much, it goes against human nature to frequently have them when the stakes are highest.

[Phil]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is such a bad take. They don't feel like working hard? Effort hasn't been an issue. Execution has. 

 

Trocheck is a low key great signing? Since when? The team was markedly better with Strome in Tro's spot. He chucks shots when others seem reluctant to, cool. "Muscle picking up the slack" is not a descriptor anyone would use for Trocheck... 

 

This is just another overreaction to a bad game. The fan base is just as bipolar as you're claiming the team is.

 

Again... 4 games. The beginning of the season always looks like this. It's a messy slog of inconsistency while the teams get their feet under them and make adjustments. 

 

Edmonton is 1-3. Philly is 3-1. The Devils won 1 game and Meier was already benched. It's October. 

 

The team was more productive with Strome in Tro's spot. They're better designed to win in the playoffs with Trocheck, and I didn't even like the Trocheck signing. I still kinda don't. But I think that's specifically because of the weird, semi-transitional state of the roster.

 

And yes, they sometimes don't feel like working hard. Some games they don't get the breaks, but the attempts are all there. Early games from Panarin, for example, had him cutting to slot all night. I think Vali was saying he had like 12 attempts already this season when he only had like six all playoffs. Something like that. And it's not to single him out — it's a mentality among that core group of players who are on fire when they're on, and cold as ice when they're not.

 

And I totally get that it's early. I'm responding to a thread, not calling the season. They'll likely figure it out. This isn't going to sink them. But I do think it's entirely appropriate to question if they're truly built for long-term playoff success right now. I remain unconvinced.

 

3 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

You got to let the Tkachuk dream go.

 

But I agree, too little muscle and "fuck you" mentality in this team right now. Cuylle and Othmann have it, but they're still just kids, they need someone to lead them into battle and we might have the worst top 6 in the league in that regard.

 

I won't. Not so long as they draw breath. I don't even care which Tkachuk it is. I mean, hell, is there like some black sheep of the Tkachuk family we can sign in the hopes he has just enough of the genetic makeup to pass a smell test?

 

It's also not entirely that they don't have enough fuck you, it's that the fuck you they have plays too low in their lineup. On depressing nights like last night, Goodrow can't really help because his role is too far down the pecking order to be meaningful. You need these guys at the top, dragging your team into the fight. You need them in your top-six.

 

1 minute ago, BrooksBurner said:

There’s human nature here too. Humans can’t be 110% every single game. It’s understandable to have a clunker here or there in a long season. The issue is the underlined, and I would add the fact that it sticks around with high frequency when the playoffs come around. It’s unimaginable that guys appear to take nights off in the playoffs. While it’s human nature to have a clunker when it doesn’t matter as much, it goes against human nature to frequently have them when the stakes are highest.

 

Right. Which is why you want more of this, not less. The more of it you have, the less likely you run into these issues as often because when Player A, C, and E just aren't going one night, Plaeyrs B, D, and F might be. If you build your roster with enough of these types of players, you win no matter what. The Tampa teams that won were great examples. It's not about bruising, it's about mentality and attitude. Point, Kucherov, Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde, etc. etc. etc. Just a whole lot of attitude. Some guys are killers, others are water bugs, but they're all "difficult to play against."

[Pete]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

The team was more productive with Strome in Tro's spot. They're better designed to win in the playoffs with Trocheck, and I didn't even like the Trocheck signing. I still kinda don't. But I think that's specifically because of the weird, semi-transitional state of the roster.

 

And yes, they sometimes don't feel like working hard. Some games they don't get the breaks, but the attempts are all there. Early games from Panarin, for example, had him cutting to slot all night. I think Vali was saying he had like 12 attempts already this season when he only had like six all playoffs. Something like that. And it's not to single him out — it's a mentality among that core group of players who are on fire when they're on, and cold as ice when they're not.

 

And I totally get that it's early. I'm responding to a thread, not calling the season. They'll likely figure it out. This isn't going to sink them. But I do think it's entirely appropriate to question if they're truly built for long-term playoff success right now. I remain unconvinced.

 

 

I won't. Not so long as they draw breath. I don't even care which Tkachuk it is. I mean, hell, is there like some black sheep of the Tkachuk family we can sign in the hopes he has just enough of the genetic makeup to pass a smell test?

 

It's also not entirely that they don't have enough fuck you, it's that the fuck you they have plays too low in their lineup. On depressing nights like last night, Goodrow can't really help because his role is too far down the pecking order to be meaningful. You need these guys at the top, dragging your team into the fight. You need them in your top-six.

 

 

Right. Which is why you want more of this, not less. The more of it you have, the less likely you run into these issues as often because when Player A, C, and E just aren't going one night, Plaeyrs B, D, and F might be. If you build your roster with enough of these types of players, you win no matter what. The Tampa teams that won were great examples. It's not about bruising, it's about mentality and attitude. Point, Kucherov, Coleman, Goodrow, Gourde, etc. etc. etc. Just a whole lot of attitude. Some guys are killers, others are water bugs, but they're all "difficult to play against."

I'm sorry but I just don't subscribe to the idea that they don't try. 

 

Add into the fact that it's almost like there's another team on the ice competing against them and are trying really hard to win a hockey game too...

 

I would say the biggest problem this season so far has been goaltending. And that's always going to be the case, when your starter stinks it's really hard to win. In the games that they have lost, Igor has not been good. 

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

I would say the biggest problem this season so far has been goaltending. And that's always going to be the case, when your starter stinks it's really hard to win. In the games that they have lost, Igor has not been good. 

I was told that a new coaching staff would help this team win games without Igor having to stand on his head.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

I was told that a new coaching staff would help this team win games without Igor having to stand on his head.

You were also told it's been four games lol. 

 

They finished last season 8th most high danger chances against.

 

Right now they're 16th. Something is different. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Pete