2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

Different circumstances entirely. Average age is pointless. It's about the top players, their history of playoff performance relative to their cap hits, projections moving forward, and the likelihood they change or adapt come playoff time. Nobody questioned Stone, Marchessault, Karlsson, etc. I put Zibanejad in this category. He showed a couple of playoffs ago it's in there, and I personally don't question they can win with him on the team at his cap hit. You know who is absolutely not in this category.

 

The Leafs group of Matthews, Marner, Nylander had disappointing results in their early 20s, but that's not enough to expect it their whole careers for the next decade. There was time for them to absorb a lot of painful lessons, and they've already shown incremental progress towards being better in the playoffs. IIRC, this will be the first time with their core that the Leafs have been able to impact their top 6-9 in any significant way. It's been a lot of swapping out 3rd/4th line grunt workers looking for supplemental grit, trying to patch things at the deadline. It's not been good enough. Sound familiar?

So I guess you could totally skipped over the part where I outlined that Vegas has 4 of their top 6 forwards over the age of 30? And 3 of their top 4 D? 

 

Seems like they had a lot of failure there, until they didn't.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

So I guess you could totally skipped over the part where I outlined that Vegas has 4 of their top 6 forwards over the age of 30? And 3 of their top 4 D? 

 

Seems like they had a lot of failure there, until they didn't.

 

 

 

 

I skipped over it as it was an irrelevant point. I never said a team couldn't win with aged forwards.

 

My point was that 30 somethings who haven't shown out in the playoffs are a lot less likely to do so moving forward than 20 somethings who haven't.

 

[Br4d]

All of the arguments about roster composition basically boil down to one thing: Are the Rangers veteran players going to play to their potential in the playoffs or not?

 

If not then nothing else we're discussing matters because Drury is going to get fired in a year or two and we're starting over.

 

Panarin, Zibanejad, Trouba and Fox need to earn their contracts in the spring or it just doesn't matter.  Igor is a given.  The rest of the team needs to step up instead of waiting for somebody else to take the lead.

 

The reason the Rangers went to the ECF two years ago is that Trouba, Fox and Zibanejad stepped up and lead the team.

 

Nobody did that last year and so we got ousted ignominiously in the first round.

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Long live the King said:

 

A - You'd need to pay Nemeth's replacement.  Tinordi got sent down and Hajek was the 7th D.  Hunt played 76 games @ a $762k cap hit.  You have 4 whoever's in your lineup, who are you signing that's better than Hunt?

 

B - Kadri wasn't a FA until after Nemeth was traded.

 

They couldn't afford Buch @ $5.8 million when they traded him.  They couldn't afford Kadri when he was a FA.  Trocheck is younger, cheaper, and out produced Kadri.

 

A pile of dog shit could replace Nemeth.  It practically did. Hajek, Tinordi, Braun, Jones, Harpur then Mikkola.  Replacing Nemeth is easy. He was the worst of that bunch I just listed. 

 

Who am I replacing Hunt with on the 4th line? Well they had Rooney, Mckegg, Reaves and Gauthier. Pick and choose what garbage you favor over the other garbage. 

 

Don't sign Goodrow and Nemeth and then they you can afford Buchnevich. I don't know how to make that any more clear.  3.6 and 2.5.. is 6.1 Buchnevich signed for 5.8 with his new team. May have gotten him for less as a hometown discount. None the less, they had cap room either way to fill out the roster. Hunt, Tinordi, Hajek, Gauthier,  Mckegg, Reaves, Rooney whatever. It still works. Even a year later.

 

Kadri is the signing you make instead of Trocheck. A year after they should have kept Buchnevich.

 

You're looking at about 1 mill less in capspace (if you sign Kadri). Which doesn't matter. They had space to add anyway. Maybe you wouldn't be able to get Tarasenko AND Kane at this past deadline,  but then again,  you probably wouldn't need to. 

 

Kadri just came off an 80 point season. He played this season with a flailing Flames team and still scored more goals than Trocheck who was stapled to one of the best set up men in the game. 

 

Are we really going to debate which player is better at this time? Kadri vs Trocheck is a no brainer. 

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I skipped over it as it was an irrelevant point. I never said a team couldn't win with aged forwards.

 

My point was that 30 somethings who haven't shown out in the playoffs are a lot less likely to do so moving forward than 20 somethings who haven't.

 

And my point is you could have said the same exact thing about the Vegas roster. 

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

But that's why they added Domi (thought you loved him?) and Bertuzzi. Both a pain in the ass to play against and both skilled enough to play in the top 6/9.

Yes, but they have to find where to play them. They don't even have room for them.

 

I like both players and they may fit. I think they'd have been better off re-signiing O'Reilly after seeing the money he got in Nashville,  compared to what the Leafs gave Bertuzzi. I take O'Reilly leadership and grit over both Domi and Bertuzzi any day.  I don't know their entire cap situation though, so I don't know if O'Reilly fits past this coming season. 

 

Maybe these fiesty players help Toronto. I don't see it though. I think they get worse and the team kinda implodes. Not due to these additions.  Just kinda how I always envisioned it going. New GM and coach or not. 

[BrooksBurner]

2 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Yes, but they have to find where to play them. They don't even have room for them.

 

I like both players and they may fit. I think they'd have been better off re-signiing O'Reilly after seeing the money he got in Nashville,  compared to what the Leafs gave Bertuzzi. I take O'Reilly leadership and grit over both Domi and Bertuzzi any day.  I don't know their entire cap situation though, so I don't know if O'Reilly fits past this coming season. 

 

Maybe these fiesty players help Toronto. I don't see it though. I think they get worse and the team kinda implodes. Not due to these additions.  Just kinda how I always envisioned it going. New GM and coach or not. 

 

The difference is Bertuzzi can impact the top 6. ROR could not. Top 6 C already full.

Edited July 3, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[Pete]

14 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 

A pile of dog shit could replace Nemeth.  It practically did. Hajek, Tinordi, Braun, Jones, Harpur then Mikkola.  Replacing Nemeth is easy. He was the worst of that bunch I just listed. 

 

Who am I replacing Hunt with on the 4th line? Well they had Rooney, Mckegg, Reaves and Gauthier. Pick and choose what garbage you favor over the other garbage. 

 

Don't sign Goodrow and Nemeth and then they you can afford Buchnevich. I don't know how to make that any more clear.  3.6 and 2.5.. is 6.1 Buchnevich signed for 5.8 with his new team. May have gotten him for less as a hometown discount. None the less, they had cap room either way to fill out the roster. Hunt, Tinordi, Hajek, Gauthier,  Mckegg, Reaves, Rooney whatever. It still works. Even a year later.

 

Kadri is the signing you make instead of Trocheck. A year after they should have kept Buchnevich.

 

You're looking at about 1 mill less in capspace (if you sign Kadri). Which doesn't matter. They had space to add anyway. Maybe you wouldn't be able to get Tarasenko AND Kane at this past deadline,  but then again,  you probably wouldn't need to. 

 

Kadri just came off an 80 point season. He played this season with a flailing Flames team and still scored more goals than Trocheck who was stapled to one of the best set up men in the game. 

 

Are we really going to debate which player is better at this time? Kadri vs Trocheck is a no brainer. 

This is all the benefit of hindsight.

 

They were going to walk away from Buch because out of Kakko, Kravtsov, Lafreniere and Chytil, they had to think they'd net out with at least 1 RW capable of playing with CK and Zib (turns out Kakko was turning into that guy, but GG)

 

They couldn't pay Buch even $6M at the time with the other contracts coming up. You have to replace from within with cheap, young talent.

 

Fast forward a year and no one was able to grab that spot. Enter Trocheck. Big mistake to grab a second line center there. Whether it was him or Kadri. That was not the place to spend money. That was the place to put Chytil. Spend less than you spent on Tro for a 3C or RW and play Goody at 3rd line, where he's getting you bang for your buck and not at all out of place. 

 

Instead, they sign Tro who's now likely the 3C anyway, and they had to spend on Chytil. 

 

At the end of the day all of this costs a couple of million dollars, maybe spent at the wrong position. 

 

Nemeth was moved so who cares about that NTC or contract? 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

And my point is you could have said the same exact thing about the Vegas roster. 

 

I don't agree. Yes, similar ages of their top players before they acquired Eichel, but different playoff histories. You'll find a mixture of good and meh playoff outings from Stone/Marchessault/Karlsson, but there's enough good ones that suggested they had it in them. Winning a Cup also requires an equal portion of luck for multiple players to be in a groove at the same time. It's also about avoiding top players who are never in a groove come that time of year, where it's a pattern rather than catching a bad streak at the wrong time.

Edited July 3, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, BrooksBurner said:

This. Toronto understood the assignment. Changes in the top 9. They didn’t just blame their coach when they easily could have.

 

Drury is behind. He hasn’t learned this lesson yet.

Meh. He's in year 2 of his dilemma. He didn't put the team together. I think he gets more time, though I will complain about his lack of actual moves until he ---as you put it--- "understands the assignment".

 

Dubas was there since 2014.  That's a long time to not figure out the lack of defense, grit and goaltending needed to be addressed.

 

Reaching the ECF last season with a bit of luck, really put restrictions on what Drury should do.  If he wants to. He brought in a broken Kane and no grit for a playoff run, this season.  So I don't know what direction he really actually wants to go in or if he "understands the assignment". 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is all the benefit of hindsight.

 

They were going to walk away from Buch because out of Kakko, Kravtsov, Lafreniere and Chytil, they had to think they'd net out with at least 1 RW capable of playing with CK and Zib (turns out Kakko was turning into that guy, but GG)

 

They couldn't pay Buch even $6M at the time with the other contracts coming up. You have to replace from within with cheap, young talent.

 

Fast forward a year and no one was able to grab that spot. Enter Trocheck. Big mistake to grab a second line center there. Whether it was him or Kadri. That was not the place to spend money. That was the place to put Chytil. Spend less than you spent on Tro for a 3C or RW and play Goody at 3rd line, where he's getting you bang for your buck and not at all out of place. 

 

Instead, they sign Tro who's now likely the 3C anyway, and they had to spend on Chytil. 

 

At the end of the day all of this costs a couple of million dollars, maybe spent at the wrong position. 

 

Nemeth was moved so who cares about that NTC or contract? 

 

They were not close to the cap that year. That's why they had so much cap at the deadline to work with. Even with getting Copp, Vatrano, and Braun, they finished with $5M of accrued cap under the limit: https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/cap-tracker/rangers/2022

 

The Buchnevich trade was widely criticized in real time as a joke of a trade, and it was proven to be just that. That's not hindsight.

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

You think CK is easy to play against in front of your net all night?

Or Mika hammering shots from the circle.

Or Fox carrying the puck and seeing the ice so well.

Or Igor stopping everything.

 

There are no shortage of ways to be hard to play against.

 

 

Easy? No.

Predictable? Yes.

 

These things get figured out.  Teams adapt and learn how to play against these aspects.  

 

A change of pace is needed. I love the idea of Kreider with Trocheck together and given the role of disruptive pains in the ass that literally crash the net. Constantly on the doorstep and even making goalie contact. Get the opponent off balance.  Get their attention. 

 

Then there's the possibility of Panarin turning on the jets on whatever his line will be and forechecking the shit out of teams exiting their zone.  Be right on top of them (obviously with some support).

 

Aggressive is the way to go. I think a few of these guys already here have it in them to constantly be moving their legs, being in skaters faces and having a bit of chippyness. Some... I just don't think do though. But that's up to Laviolette to assign the proper role for these players,  so they fit into the structured plan. 

 

To me. Hard to play against is really about motor. Constant buzz. Skating hard. Not giving up on plays. It's not all physical. Grit is definitely needed, but grit to me can be a will to take some punishment without necessarily giving it. Of course I prefer a player that can give it while also being able to score. But such a player isn't available as of now. So you have to make due with speed and aggressiveness. The Rangers arent necessarily slow. Most of these guys can skate. Well, maybe not Lafrenière,  but these guys can potentially buy in and play with some more gumption.

 

Hopefully everyone on the roster is taking the offseason seriously,  because they are going to need their stamina to do what's necessary.  well... we heard who isn't already,  but.....

 

 

 

 

[RangersIn7]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Easy? No.

Predictable? Yes.

 

These things get figured out.  Teams adapt and learn how to play against these aspects.  

 

A change of pace is needed. I love the idea of Kreider with Trocheck together and given the role of disruptive pains in the ass that literally crash the net. Constantly on the doorstep and even making goalie contact. Get the opponent off balance.  Get their attention. 

 

Then there's the possibility of Panarin turning on the jets on whatever his line will be and forechecking the shit out of teams exiting their zone.  Be right on top of them (obviously with some support).

 

Aggressive is the way to go. I think a few of these guys already here have it in them to constantly be moving their legs, being in skaters faces and having a bit of chippyness. Some... I just don't think do though. But that's up to Laviolette to assign the proper role for these players,  so they fit into the structured plan. 

 

To me. Hard to play against is really about motor. Constant buzz. Skating hard. Not giving up on plays. It's not all physical. Grit is definitely needed, but grit to me can be a will to take some punishment without necessarily giving it. Of course I prefer a player that can give it while also being able to score. But such a player isn't available as of now. So you have to make due with speed and aggressiveness. The Rangers arent necessarily slow. Most of these guys can skate. Well, maybe not Lafrenière,  but these guys can potentially buy in and play with some more gumption.

 

Hopefully everyone on the roster is taking the offseason seriously,  because they are going to need their stamina to do what's necessary.  well... we heard who isn't already,  but.....

 

 

 

 

Much of what you are mentioning here points to coaching and style and system 

[Pete]

32 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

I don't agree. Yes, similar ages of their top players before they acquired Eichel, but different playoff histories. You'll find a mixture of good and meh playoff outings from Stone/Marchessault/Karlsson, but there's enough good ones that suggested they had it in them. Winning a Cup also requires an equal portion of luck for multiple players to be in a groove at the same time. It's also about avoiding top players who are never in a groove come that time of year, where it's a pattern rather than catching a bad streak at the wrong time.

 

Cool. Good thing we have a goalie who's always in a groove that time of year, skaters who have shown they can produce that time of year, and now a coach who shown he can deliver at that time of year. 

 

So because this roster is not nearly as bad as you think, you're concern is not nearly as warranted as you make it. 

[The Dude]

44 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

The difference is Bertuzzi can impact the top 6. ROR could not. Top 6 C already full.

He plays wing too. No? Thought that's where they had him playing.  

[Pete]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

He plays wing too. No? Thought that's where they had him playing.  

TOR lost Bunting and signed Bertuzzi. Pretty much a lateral move. I don't think you're getting more than 50 points out of Bertuzzi, and that's what Bunting gave them last year. And they both play the same grating style and are the same size, so I don't see how this is an upgrade for them. They just moved from one name on the back of the jersey to another name, they didn't add anything they didn't already have. 

[The Dude]

45 minutes ago, Pete said:

This is all the benefit of hindsight.

 

They were going to walk away from Buch because out of Kakko, Kravtsov, Lafreniere and Chytil, they had to think they'd net out with at least 1 RW capable of playing with CK and Zib (turns out Kakko was turning into that guy, but GG)

 

They couldn't pay Buch even $6M at the time with the other contracts coming up. You have to replace from within with cheap, young talent.

 

Fast forward a year and no one was able to grab that spot. Enter Trocheck. Big mistake to grab a second line center there. Whether it was him or Kadri. That was not the place to spend money. That was the place to put Chytil. Spend less than you spent on Tro for a 3C or RW and play Goody at 3rd line, where he's getting you bang for your buck and not at all out of place. 

 

Instead, they sign Tro who's now likely the 3C anyway, and they had to spend on Chytil. 

 

At the end of the day all of this costs a couple of million dollars, maybe spent at the wrong position. 

 

Nemeth was moved so who cares about that NTC or contract? 

Not really hindsight. 

 

I've been saying this since they did the trade (which BTW is almost equal in disaster to the McDonagh trade, but it's not) .

 

Kakko was coming off a poor rookie and sophomore campaign.  Kravtsov was already in Drurys doghouse after tearing into him in Hartford. Buchnevich was already a solid and young player. There was no reason to think past him. Buchnevich was the guy and he was lining up for a great fit contract wise. Theres no way Drury considered Kravtsov for much of anything. That relationship was just bad and Drury had no faith in him  (hindsight he appears right). 

 

What's hindsight is you saying they shouldn't have spent on a 2 C and should have went with Chytil. Lmao.  You can't stand Chytil and haven't for years. 

 

The way I had it layed out, both years, when these situations happened, I think the Rangers are in a better place the last 2 years than they were. 

 

The cap hits are nearly identical. Youre not losing any significant players. Rodter flexibility is pretty much the same.

 

No matter. The success they had in going to the ECF can't be argued.  It was done without Buchnevich. Maybe they don't get there with him here. Maybe they do. It's done. Drury fucked it up and it's not exactly the end of the world. 

[The Dude]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

TOR lost Bunting and signed Bertuzzi. Pretty much a lateral move. I don't think you're getting more than 50 points out of Bertuzzi, and that's what Bunting gave them last year. And they both play the same grating style and are the same size, so I don't see how this is an upgrade for them. They just moved from one name on the back of the jersey to another name, they didn't add anything they didn't already have. 

I was referring to ROR. I think a better suited player for Toronto at this time. I thought they had him playing the wing in the top 6. Guess I was wrong.  Shocking.

[BrooksBurner]

29 minutes ago, The Dude said:

He plays wing too. No? Thought that's where they had him playing.  

 

He was on some stacked line combos during the regular season. I'm not sure what they were doing.  Perhaps they did have him on the wing for a spell.

 

In the playoffs most of his time was at center with Acciari flexed out to RW, and a variety of different LWs (Bunting, Knies, Kerfoot) complementing those two.

 

 

 

[Br4d]

56 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Much of what you are mentioning here points to coaching and style and system 

Would that be GG's system or Quinn's system?

 

What about Laviolette's system?

 

This group of veteran players is about to start working on their third veteran HC in 4 seasons.  The last two guys did not survive that process.

[RangersIn7]

22 minutes ago, Br4d said:

Would that be GG's system or Quinn's system?

 

What about Laviolette's system?

 

This group of veteran players is about to start working on their third veteran HC in 4 seasons.  The last two guys did not survive that process.

Well… I’d argue 2 points on that.

 

First off… unless I’m missing something, GG had no discernible system. I’ve been watching and playing hockey for 30+ years, and normally, you can pick out what the players are trying to accomplish out there and what they’re doing to actually accomplish it. I could not identify that with GG.

 
Second… on Quinn, 1st time NHL HC. Not a veteran. Roster in transition. 
On his system, it’s pretty clear what he wanted guys to do offensively at 5v5 just didn’t really have the players hearts and minds. And defensively, never challenging guys at the blue line, giving up so much time and space, it didn’t work. 
 

As for 3rd HC in 4 seasons… what else do you do? You’ve got a talented group and there’s a window, and you can only make so many roster changes and remain a contender. 
 

Also… not to pound the Vegas drum… they were on their 3rd HC in 4 seasons this year, with Cassidy. It didn’t hurt them.

 

If you’ve got a contending group, keep trying till you get it right as long as you’ve got that group.

 

Plus, depending on the state of your time, there’s a right time for a certain HC.

In a rebuild, you can take a shot on a younger up and coming guy. Or you can bring in a guy that’s really tight that can teach young players how to be pros.

Coming off a guy who is really strict, you probably want a more relaxed , player oriented HC. 
 

In other sports too.

 

Look at a guy like Jim Caldwell in the NFL.

Are you winning a Super Bowl with him?

No.

 

But if you had a young team, needed discipline, professionalism, accountability etc., could he effectively create that culture for you? 
Yes. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by RangersIn7

[Pete]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Not really hindsight. 

 

I've been saying this since they did the trade (which BTW is almost equal in disaster to the McDonagh trade, but it's not) .

 

Kakko was coming off a poor rookie and sophomore campaign.  Kravtsov was already in Drurys doghouse after tearing into him in Hartford. Buchnevich was already a solid and young player. There was no reason to think past him. Buchnevich was the guy and he was lining up for a great fit contract wise. Theres no way Drury considered Kravtsov for much of anything. That relationship was just bad and Drury had no faith in him  (hindsight he appears right). 

 

What's hindsight is you saying they shouldn't have spent on a 2 C and should have went with Chytil. Lmao.  You can't stand Chytil and haven't for years. 

 

The way I had it layed out, both years, when these situations happened, I think the Rangers are in a better place the last 2 years than they were. 

 

The cap hits are nearly identical. Youre not losing any significant players. Rodter flexibility is pretty much the same.

 

No matter. The success they had in going to the ECF can't be argued.  It was done without Buchnevich. Maybe they don't get there with him here. Maybe they do. It's done. Drury fucked it up and it's not exactly the end of the world. 

I think the entire thing is hindsight. You might have been right about the move at the time, but not for the right reasons. You're using the benefit of hindsight to justify something you said 2 years ago. 

 

And who's to say I can't like Chytil today because I didn't like him 2 years ago? 2 years ago he stunk. Tomorrow he's probably going to stink less, because he's trending the right way. Seeing what they paid him, and Tro... They could have just paid him to be the second line center and paid half of what they paid Tro for a third liner. That's just cap management, which goes beyond if I "like" a player or not.

[BrooksBurner]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I think the entire thing is hindsight. You might have been right about the move at the time, but not for the right reasons. You're using the benefit of hindsight to justify something you said 2 years ago. 

 

And who's to say I can't like Chytil today because I didn't like him 2 years ago? 2 years ago he stunk. Tomorrow he's probably going to stink less, because he's trending the right way. Seeing what they paid him, and Tro... They could have just paid him to be the second line center and paid half of what they paid Tro for a third liner. That's just cap management, which goes beyond if I "like" a player or not.

I can get behind this attitude Pete. As fans we only have best guesses based on limited info and live tape from the games we watch, without the full view of information that professional GMs have. Our opinions should be pliable. Insert some joke here about how yours needs to be a lot more pliable than mine since you’re wrong so much more often.

Edited July 3, 2023 by BrooksBurner

[RichieNextel305]

Man, I wish there was a way to keep him around. I really liked his game here, and he’s a good guy to have on your side in a playoff series. 

[RangersIn7]

25 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said:

Man, I wish there was a way to keep him around. I really liked his game here, and he’s a good guy to have on your side in a playoff series. 

Yeah.

 

Hes a risk though too on anything longer than, I’d say, 2 years. But he’s still young enough and good enough to get good money on more than that.

Whoever signs him, depending upon term and money, could easily regret it. He is approaching the age of decline, best hockey likely behind him. And that injury history. 
 

I loved him as a rental. I’d love to keep him on a 1-2 year deal at the right money. I’d probably go as high as 3 years.

 

But he can get more elsewhere and I think that’s what he wants. 
 

His big payday was big. But he signed it 8 years ago at 23. He can still get another nice bag.