2022-23 Off-season Thread: Endless Pain, Hatred, and Rage ... Also Boredom

[RangersIn7]

9 hours ago, The Dude said:

Between him and Bertuzzi now, they must have a deal for Nylander, no?

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

1 minute ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

I get the issues with NTC/NMC.

 

But what do you do?

 

Its presumably not coming from the GM, but the player and agent. Guys want them. Especially if they have a family or plan on starting one. 
 

So then what?

 

Youre trying to sign a player that you feel you really need, but you take a hard line?

 

”Hey player X, we love you and want you here. But we aren’t giving you any trade protection.”

 

”So you want me here. But you can trade me at any time? To any place.”

 

”That’s correct.”

 

”Cool. See you when I see you.”

Because if a bottom 6 F or bottom pair D demands that you say "Cool talking to you, see 'ya!

[RangersIn7]

1 minute ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Because if a bottom 6 F or bottom pair D demands that you say "Cool talking to you, see 'ya!

That I agree with.

If you’re talking about Goodrow, yeah. That’s the way to go.

 

But the guys you bring in who slot above those guys, or the guys you already have that want that who play high in your lineup, then what?

 

Its a league wide issue that needs to be addressed. 
 

As long as it’s there, guys are going to ask for it and get it.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

3 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

That I agree with.

If you’re talking about Goodrow, yeah. That’s the way to go.

 

But the guys you bring in who slot above those guys, or the guys you already have that want that who play high in your lineup, then what?

 

Its a league wide issue that needs to be addressed. 
 

As long as it’s there, guys are going to ask for it and get it.

Yeah, so on this roster I see it like this:

- Shesterkin, Fox, Zib, Panarin - Full NMC, the only players on this team that deserves that. Panarin mainly because he signed as a UFA.

- Kreider, Trouba, Trocheck - M-NTC, Good, but not great players, should have some say in where they would be traded, but not a full NMC. Trocheck mainly because he signed as a UFA. Kreider is a lifelong Ranger and took a discount, Trouba because he only wanted to play here.

 

That's it.

[RangersIn7]

5 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Yeah, so on this roster I see it like this:

- Shesterkin, Fox, Zib, Panarin - Full NMC, the only players on this team that deserves that. Panarin mainly because he signed as a UFA.

- Kreider, Trouba, Trocheck - M-NTC, Good, but not great players, should have some say in where they would be traded, but not a full NMC. Trocheck mainly because he signed as a UFA. Kreider is a lifelong Ranger and took a discount, Trouba because he only wanted to play here.

 

That's it.

Yeah

 

That would work.

 

But in actuality, how far off are we from that?

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

2 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Yeah

 

That would work.

 

But in actuality, how far off are we from that?

Not too far off. According to CapFriendly:

NMC - Panarin, Zib, Kreider, Trocheck, Fox (kicks in when he's UFA eligible)

M-NTC - Goodrow, Wheeler, Trouba, Shesterkin, Quick

[Long live the King]

10 hours ago, The Dude said:

I did though. Keep Buchnevich.  Don't sign Goodrow and Nemeth. 

 

That's 3 things right off the jump. It solves 2 current issues.  Top 6 RW in his prime and signed to a good contract. The other issue is trying to unload the Goodrow contract that they want gone 2 years into it. One of two players he picked (over the homegrown better all around player), is detrimental to the teams build, and the other was gone from the team 4-5 months later. 

 

I keep hearing how easy it is to trade players with NMCs... But it's an excuse for Drury. 

 

This isn't Drurys team and he has yet to make an actual change to it besides taking away Panarins center that he had great chemistry with. Oh. Let's talk about that great contract too. Trocheck.  7 years. 5.6 mill. 12 team no trade. That's a good one? 

 

Kadri got 7 mill late that summer. The Rangers couldn't scrounge up 1.4 mill more to get the better player? Guy went to shithole Calgary because Drury signed Trocheck on day 1 of free agency. 

 

Kadri would have changed the makeup of the top 6. Instead we have Trocheck.  

 

Could have 

 

Kreider- Zibanejad- Buchnevich 

Panarin- Kadri- Kakko 

Lafrenière- Chytil- Whoever

Whoever- Whoever- Josh's mom/my mom

 

and it's already a better team. 

 

So, you know what. I'm wrong.

 

Drury did put his stamp on this team. He got rid of 2 very useful players and added 2 more bad saddle contracts.  He's done great. 

 

Kadri and Buch in place of Trocheck and Goodrow is an extra $3.4 million against the cap.  How is that supposed to work? 

[The Dude]

50 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Fox was Drury I think.

 

But you're totally right, Drury is no better with the NTC/NMC than Gorton and co was.

You're correct.  It was Drury. 

[The Dude]

39 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

Between him and Bertuzzi now, they must have a deal for Nylander, no?

I just didn't understand why it was posted in this thread. 

 

Toronto is a mess. I don't think they have an actual gameplan. I think firing Dubas was pretty dumb. 

[RangersIn7]

20 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

Not too far off. According to CapFriendly:

NMC - Panarin, Zib, Kreider, Trocheck, Fox (kicks in when he's UFA eligible)

M-NTC - Goodrow, Wheeler, Trouba, Shesterkin, Quick

Yup

 

And I don’t have issue with CK having it either. None. 
 

They went to far with Goodrow.

 

Quick and Wheeler are irrelevant.

 

The cap issues and flexibility issues are flat cap related 

 

[RangersIn7]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

I just didn't understand why it was posted in this thread. 

 

Toronto is a mess. I don't think they have an actual gameplan. I think firing Dubas was pretty dumb. 

I agree.

 

The real mistake was Tavares.

Not that he’s not a great player, and he’s been awesome for them. And I know he desperately wanted to be there, so how do you pass that up. But still.

 

They had the 1C they needed in Matthews, plus Marner and Nylander.

 

That money could’ve been more effective had it been spent on 2-3 complimentary pieces vs a singular and honestly redundant piece. 

[siddious]

Just now, The Dude said:

I just didn't understand why it was posted in this thread. 

 

Toronto is a mess. I don't think they have an actual gameplan. I think firing Dubas was pretty dumb. 

I think their game plan is pretty clear- get tougher to play against. 

[The Dude]

30 minutes ago, Long live the King said:

 

Kadri and Buch in place of Trocheck and Goodrow is an extra $3.4 million against the cap.  How is that supposed to work? 

 

You're also leaving out Nemeth and his 2.5. So, youd have to find 900k- 1 mill and i think thats achieved by dumping guys that didn't play, like Hajek, or not bringing in garbage like Hunt. Still puts you under the cap. That's how. 

 

Ps, you probably wouldn't have had to give Kadri 7. He got 7 because Calgary was desperate and were likely the high water mark for the cash. I highly doubt Kadri chose Calgary due to its winning culture and future outlook after they had to deal Tkachuk,  who couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by The Dude

[The Dude]

11 minutes ago, siddious said:

I think their game plan is pretty clear- get tougher to play against. 

They've been saying that for 4 years. They don't do it, or they don't address it correctly. Ryan Reaves on the 4th line is the same as what they've been doing. They need an actual shake up. Nylander or Marner has to go in order to bring in a top six forward that changes their make up a bit (kinda like the Rangers). Cant keep slapping in a washed up 4th liner and saying the problem is solved. I think they did good at the deadline in adding McCabe and O'Reilly.  They need more of that and to have it for a full season,  not just a few weeks before the playoffs.. Fuck, get a goalie already too. 

 

This doesn't belong in this thread though. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by The Dude

[siddious]

18 minutes ago, The Dude said:

They've been saying that for 4 years. They don't do it, or they don't address it correctly. Ryan Reaves on the 4th line is the same as what they've been doing. They need an actual shake up. Nylander or Marner has to go in order to bring in a top six forward that changes their make up a bit (kinda like the Rangers). Cant keep slapping in a washed up 4th liner and saying the problem is solved. I think they did good at the deadline in adding McCabe and O'Reilly.  They need more of that and to have it for a full season,  not just a few weeks before the playoffs.. Fuck, get a goalie already too. 

 

This doesn't belong in this thread though. 

I believe nylander is being shopped and bertuzzi is likely to be in that top 6. but its the leafs so who knows. and i certainly dont care lol

[Long live the King]

44 minutes ago, The Dude said:

 

You're also leaving out Nemeth and his 2.5. So, youd have to find 900k- 1 mill and i think thats achieved by dumping guys that didn't play, like Hajek, or not bringing in garbage like Hunt. Still puts you under the cap. That's how. 

 

Ps, you probably wouldn't have had to give Kadri 7. He got 7 because Calgary was desperate and were likely the high water mark for the cash. I highly doubt Kadri chose Calgary due to its winning culture and future outlook after they had to deal Tkachuk,  who couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.

 

 

 

A - You'd need to pay Nemeth's replacement.  Tinordi got sent down and Hajek was the 7th D.  Hunt played 76 games @ a $762k cap hit.  You have 4 whoever's in your lineup, who are you signing that's better than Hunt?

 

B - Kadri wasn't a FA until after Nemeth was traded.

 

They couldn't afford Buch @ $5.8 million when they traded him.  They couldn't afford Kadri when he was a FA.  Trocheck is younger, cheaper, and out produced Kadri.

[Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

They've been saying that for 4 years. They don't do it, or they don't address it correctly. Ryan Reaves on the 4th line is the same as what they've been doing. They need an actual shake up. Nylander or Marner has to go in order to bring in a top six forward that changes their make up a bit (kinda like the Rangers). Cant keep slapping in a washed up 4th liner and saying the problem is solved. I think they did good at the deadline in adding McCabe and O'Reilly.  They need more of that and to have it for a full season,  not just a few weeks before the playoffs.. Fuck, get a goalie already too. 

 

This doesn't belong in this thread though. 

But that's why they added Domi (thought you loved him?) and Bertuzzi. Both a pain in the ass to play against and both skilled enough to play in the top 6/9.

[BrooksBurner]

9 minutes ago, Zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuc said:

But that's why they added Domi (thought you loved him?) and Bertuzzi. Both a pain in the ass to play against and both skilled enough to play in the top 6/9.

This. Toronto understood the assignment. Changes in the top 9. They didn’t just blame their coach when they easily could have.

 

Drury is behind. He hasn’t learned this lesson yet.

[RangersIn7]

Hard to play against takes many forms.

 

It can come from size, physical play, and grit.

 

It can come from speed.

 

It can come from skill. 
 

It can come from lots of puck possession and a relentless forecheck. 

 

It can come from goaltending and D and they just don’t give up many chances and frustrate you all night. 

 

It can come from an overall team effort and commitment/discipline within a well-devised system.

 

Or it can be from the right combination of the above. 
 

You think CK is easy to play against in front of your net all night?

Or Mika hammering shots from the circle.

Or Fox carrying the puck and seeing the ice so well.

Or Igor stopping everything.

 

There are no shortage of ways to be hard to play against.

 

 

[Pete]

22 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

This. Toronto understood the assignment. Changes in the top 9. They didn’t just blame their coach when they easily could have.

 

Drury is behind. He hasn’t learned this lesson yet.

And they did it without trading their best players or asking anyone to waive a clause.

 

Imagine that...

 

The Rangers added Wheeler to the top 6 and Goodrow or Vesey as consistent presences on the 3rd line accomplishes the same thing that Toronto did. Toronto just paid Bertuzzi $5M+ for the 15 goal pace of a guy who can't stay healthy. I don't get the backflips you're doing there. Domi was a steal though.

 

You just like to shit on Drury's moves because it's not the moves you'd make, and because he didn't trade Panarin. He could do nothing this offseason but move 10 and you'd be lauding the job he did.

 

But here's the thing, moves you personally don't like aren't "bad". More times that not, when you look at the landscape of the league, they're quite good.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Pete

[BrooksBurner]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

And they did it without trading their best players or asking anyone to waive a clause.

 

Imagine that...

 

The Rangers added Wheeler to the top 6 and Goodrow or Vesey as consistent presences on the 3rd line accomplishes the same thing that Toronto did. Toronto just paid Bertuzzi $5M+ for the 15 goal pace of a guy who can't stay healthy. I don't get the backflips you're doing there. Domi was a steal though.

 

The Leafs top players are still 27 and under, except for Tavares. While they haven't gotten the results yet, until some optimism this year, there has been plenty of time and reason to take more than a few whacks at things and see how those 20 somethings progress as players.  It's taken them a few years to finagle the cap enough to do what they just did this summer.

 

The Rangers top guys are in their 30s. They aren't going to magically start trending up. They are now asking a declining 37 year old winger to, what?, be the top 9 talented grit? Or just be a worse version of Tarasenko and Kane? Sounds like a hope-ium injection to me.

 

You're way off on Bertuzzi too.

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, BrooksBurner said:

 

The Leafs top players are still 27 and under, except for Tavares. While they haven't gotten the results yet, until some optimism this year, there has been plenty of time and reason to take more than a few whacks at things and see how those 20 somethings progress as players.  It's taken them a few years to finagle the cap enough to do what they just did this summer.

 

The Rangers top guys are in their 30s. They aren't going to magically start trending up. They are now asking a declining 37 year old winger to, what?, be the top 9 talented grit? Or just be a worse version of Tarasenko and Kane? Sounds like a hope-ium injection to me.

 

You're way off on Bertuzzi too.

Bertuzzi was the gem of this UFA market. Which shows why everyone was saying the UFA market was shit, and turned to trades.

 

Having the youngest team, or a team under 30, it's a prerequisite to winning. Don't really care about how old the Leafs are, they're not gonna be able to keep that team together for more than 2-3 more seasons, and they have no goalie (still).

 

The Knights average age: 29.1

The Rangers: 27.7

 

The Knights have 2 players in their top 6 under 30 years old, assuming Howden isn't their permanent solution at 2LW. So what's the problem with some players in their early 30s and one who's 37? They don't need to trend up. They just need to perform according to what their hockey cards say. If Wheeler give you the same 55-60 points as last year, that would be the most productive season opposite Panarin since Panarin got here.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Pete

[Ranger Lothbrok]

I disagree with those saying team speed isn't an obvious deficiency. I could buy into MAYBE them being demoralized vs. NJ, but that God awful play can't possibly be attributed to overthinking. How do you overthink a game plan that doesn't exist? The whole knock on Gallant was the Devils adjusted and we just kept doing what wasn't working. His unwillingness to adapt and his total lack of any cohesive strategy was at least 50% of the problem. 

 

But I don't know how you can say team speed isn't an issue when every one of your lines gets beat to every loose puck 5 games straight. Our captain, and ostensibly our #1 defensive d-man, is a glorified, overpaid pylon whose biggest claims to fame are borderline cheap shots and throwing his helmet. Nobody on this roster is winning any footraces except for maybe Kreider. 

[Long live the King]

20 minutes ago, Ranger Lothbrok said:

I disagree with those saying team speed isn't an obvious deficiency. I could buy into MAYBE them being demoralized vs. NJ, but that God awful play can't possibly be attributed to overthinking. How do you overthink a game plan that doesn't exist? The whole knock on Gallant was the Devils adjusted and we just kept doing what wasn't working. His unwillingness to adapt and his total lack of any cohesive strategy was at least 50% of the problem. 

 

But I don't know how you can say team speed isn't an issue when every one of your lines gets beat to every loose puck 5 games straight. Our captain, and ostensibly our #1 defensive d-man, is a glorified, overpaid pylon whose biggest claims to fame are borderline cheap shots and throwing his helmet. Nobody on this roster is winning any footraces except for maybe Kreider. 

 

A game plan eliminates thinking.  Everyone has a designated place to go.  You can move the puck and get to the next spot faster.  If there's no plan, you have to hold onto the puck too long (Panarin curls too much!) and look for an open teammate.  This slows down your attack and allows the defense to close on you.  This is where the majority of the turnovers came from.  Zib isn't slow, Chytil isn't slow, Kreider isn't slow, Trocheck isn't slow, Miller isn't slow, Schneider isn't slow.  Tell these guys where to go, tell their linemates where to go, and they'll be able to move the puck and play much faster.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Long live the King

[BrooksBurner]

24 minutes ago, Pete said:

Bertuzzi was the gem of this UFA market. Which shows why everyone was saying the UFA market was shit, and turned to trades.

 

Having the youngest team, or a team under 30, it's a prerequisite to winning. Don't really care about how old the Leafs are, they're not gonna be able to keep that team together for more than 2-3 more seasons, and they have no goalie (still).

 

The Knights average age: 29.1

The Rangers: 27.7

 

The Knights have 2 players in their top 6 under 30 years old, assuming Howden isn't their permanent solution at 2LW. So what's the problem with some players in their early 30s and one who's 37? They don't need to trend up. They just need to perform according to what their hockey cards say. If Wheeler give you the same 55-60 points as last year, that would be the most productive season opposite Panarin since Panarin got here.

 

Different circumstances entirely. Average age is pointless. It's about the top players, their history of playoff performance relative to their cap hits, projections moving forward, and the likelihood they change or adapt come playoff time. Nobody questioned Stone, Marchessault, Karlsson, etc. I put Zibanejad in this category. He showed a couple of playoffs ago it's in there, and I personally don't question they can win with him on the team at his cap hit. You know who is absolutely not in this category.

 

The Leafs group of Matthews, Marner, Nylander had disappointing results in their early 20s, but that's not enough to expect it their whole careers for the next decade. There was time for them to absorb a lot of painful lessons, and they've already shown incremental progress towards being better in the playoffs. IIRC, this will be the first time with their core that the Leafs have been able to impact their top 6-9 in any significant way. It's been a lot of swapping out 3rd/4th line grunt workers looking for supplemental grit, trying to patch things at the deadline. It's not been good enough. Sound familiar?