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Is Panarin's Contract a Detriment to the Team?


Capt
Message added by Phil,

This conversation is being broken out from the "What Happens at Center?" thread because it's better to be had in its own dedicated thread than to continue to bump a now fairly useless thread about center depth. Please keep Panarin contract talk here.

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On 7/14/2022 at 3:41 PM, Phil said:

 

These are two different arguments.

 

The first, I agree with. It's based in fact. The second I don't. It's your opinion, and it's shared by — from the looks of things — no one. I'm not even sure @Vodka Drunkenski would agree with that statement.

His cap hit being a detriment to the team is based in fact.  Buch, Vatrano, one of Copp or Strome,  have all moved on because there is no more cap space to keep them.  Not to mention the players they are not able to bring in because again they have no cap space.  They are paper thin at center and rw.  They are going with two rookies on the blue line..  They have a question mark back up goalie.  The team has on paper got worse.  That isn't because of anything other than cap space.

 

 

This argument about Panarin's worth at the time of his signing is not the point here.  If anyone is arguing that you cannot call someone overpaid because at the time he signed it was the going rate, than nobody is ever going to be "overpaid". Bobby Holik, Scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Chris Kreider, Jacob Trouba all got paid what the market dictated at the time.  Circumstances over the life of the contract always change.  Some players become a bargain.  The only thing that matters when constructing a roster is what is the value today of a player.  In my view I'd rather $11.6M to spend on other players.  Of course moving him would bring back contracts.  For example though:

Panarin to Vancouver $11.6M out

Miller to NY (signed with a new contract at $8.5M a year) plus Hollander a right wing at $1M

 

The Rangers add two top 6 forwards, a center and right wing at a savings of $2.1M

Now instead of signing Trochek the Rangers could target Kadri, Schifiele, PLD, Larkin as their number 2 center by putting Miller on the wing. (using the $2M in savings and Trochecks $5.5M)

Say they just signed Kadri to make it easy.  Or even 

 

Kreider. Zib  Hollander

Laf Kadri Miller

Kravtsov Chytil Kakko

Goodrow Carpenter Blais

 

In my opinion that is a much deeper better team.  They could also just not spend the money (Kadri) and save the space for next summer.  Miller moves to center and Blais up to the top 6.  Leaving a camp competition for the final forward spot.

 

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On 7/18/2022 at 12:07 PM, Jdog99 said:

Why isnt panarin given more consideration to move over to rw on here?   Hes the one guy i could see adapting well.

 

On 7/18/2022 at 1:42 PM, Tonybologna said:

Not a bad point to bring up, we might see him shoot more that way too which would be good cause he's got a great shot and goalie's wanna cheat pass on him. But I don't think this will ever happen.

 

On 7/18/2022 at 1:48 PM, josh said:

I hope Kravtsov is on his far wing. If not, I’ve suggested Kreider - Zibanejad - Panarin, as others did, when the kid line was clicking for 4 periods. 

They don’t want to load up the top line. They want to split Panarin and Zib for matchup purposes. That’s their concept in this. They’ve proven it for 3 seasons now. Even if it hasn’t manifested itself in the way of even strength offense, it’s what they believe in.

 

Plus, they don’t want to move Panarin. He’s been incredibly productive on the LW and they’re understandably reluctant to potentially mess with that. 
 

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44 minutes ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

 

They don’t want to load up the top line. They want to split Panarin and Zib for matchup purposes. That’s their concept in this. They’ve proven it for 3 seasons now. Even if it hasn’t manifested itself in the way of even strength offense, it’s what they believe in.

 

Plus, they don’t want to move Panarin. He’s been incredibly productive on the LW and they’re understandably reluctant to potentially mess with that. 
 

They don't want to load up the top line because they haven't done a good job of promoting quality depth.

 

I'm actually with them on this.  I think it would be a waste to put Kreider-Zib-Panarin out there against the other team's top checking line on a regular basis.  And even at home the opposition would find ways to make that matchup happen more often than we'd like.

 

They'll never do it but I'd like to see them breakup Zibanejad and Kreider next season to more balance the lines.  I'd really like to see them give Zibanejad two of the kids, Lafreniere and Kakko, both of whom have a similar work ethic to him and both of whom the Rangers desperately need to break out.

 

Then line two becomes 1-a with Panarin, Trocheck and Kreider and the Rangers likely have two top scoring lines both of which forecheck well also.

 

Line 3 becomes one of the legion of young LW's, Chytil and Blais.

 

Line 4 becomes Hunt, Goodrow, Carpenter and the Rangers have decent two-way depth all up and down the lineup.

 

The killer in the playoffs this year was that the opposition spent a ton of effort to shut down Kreider and Zibanejad's line.  After that the Rangers really struggled to score 5v5 goals and in truth that struggle was an extension of the '21-'22 regular season.  We really need to figure that out next season or the window is going to slam shut on us.

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2 hours ago, Capt said:

His cap hit being a detriment to the team is based in fact.  Buch, Vatrano, one of Copp or Strome,  have all moved on because there is no more cap space to keep them.  Not to mention the players they are not able to bring in because again they have no cap space.  They are paper thin at center and rw.  They are going with two rookies on the blue line..  They have a question mark back up goalie.  The team has on paper got worse.  That isn't because of anything other than cap space.

 

 

This argument about Panarin's worth at the time of his signing is not the point here.  If anyone is arguing that you cannot call someone overpaid because at the time he signed it was the going rate, than nobody is ever going to be "overpaid". Bobby Holik, Scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Chris Kreider, Jacob Trouba all got paid what the market dictated at the time.  Circumstances over the life of the contract always change.  Some players become a bargain.  The only thing that matters when constructing a roster is what is the value today of a player.  In my view I'd rather $11.6M to spend on other players.  Of course moving him would bring back contracts.  For example though:

Panarin to Vancouver $11.6M out

Miller to NY (signed with a new contract at $8.5M a year) plus Hollander a right wing at $1M

 

The Rangers add two top 6 forwards, a center and right wing at a savings of $2.1M

Now instead of signing Trochek the Rangers could target Kadri, Schifiele, PLD, Larkin as their number 2 center by putting Miller on the wing. (using the $2M in savings and Trochecks $5.5M)

Say they just signed Kadri to make it easy.  Or even 

 

Kreider. Zib  Hollander

Laf Kadri Miller

Kravtsov Chytil Kakko

Goodrow Carpenter Blais

 

In my opinion that is a much deeper better team.  They could also just not spend the money (Kadri) and save the space for next summer.  Miller moves to center and Blais up to the top 6.  Leaving a camp competition for the final forward spot.

 

 

Kadri & Miller together are going to cost more than $17.2 combined, plus those deals those deals last another 7/8 years.  Panarin's deal is over in 4 years, he'll be 34.  You wanna trade him to pay Kadri $8-9+ million until he's 38 instead? And that's better for the cap situation?

 

Trade Panarin to sign Miller and put Blais in the top 6?  So Blais/Miller is better than Panarin/Trocheck?  Gaudreau just signed for $9.75 AAV what makes you think Miller signs for $8.5?

 

You talk about how they're "paper thin" at RW currently, and your answer is to add Hoglander into the trade?  He was worse than Kakko and Laf last year but he's your 1st line RW?

 

That line up you posted is worse than what is currently here.

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1 hour ago, Br4d said:

They don't want to load up the top line because they haven't done a good job of promoting quality depth.

 

I'm actually with them on this.  I think it would be a waste to put Kreider-Zib-Panarin out there against the other team's top checking line on a regular basis.  And even at home the opposition would find ways to make that matchup happen more often than we'd like.

 

They'll never do it but I'd like to see them breakup Zibanejad and Kreider next season to more balance the lines.  I'd really like to see them give Zibanejad two of the kids, Lafreniere and Kakko, both of whom have a similar work ethic to him and both of whom the Rangers desperately need to break out.

 

Then line two becomes 1-a with Panarin, Trocheck and Kreider and the Rangers likely have two top scoring lines both of which forecheck well also.

 

Line 3 becomes one of the legion of young LW's, Chytil and Blais.

 

Line 4 becomes Hunt, Goodrow, Carpenter and the Rangers have decent two-way depth all up and down the lineup.

 

The killer in the playoffs this year was that the opposition spent a ton of effort to shut down Kreider and Zibanejad's line.  After that the Rangers really struggled to score 5v5 goals and in truth that struggle was an extension of the '21-'22 regular season.  We really need to figure that out next season or the window is going to slam shut on us.

Don’t worry about “the window.”

 

Its open. For 3-4 seasons.

It was open last year. They just weren’t ready to go through it.


 

It honestly depends at this point in what the kids do.

2 of them are getting top-6 minutes this year.

The other 2 hopefully get middle-6 minutes, unless there’s a trade or significant development. 
 

I have to figure that LaFreniere and Kakko get top-6 minutes. 
 

Here’s what though.

1 of the 4 kid forwards needs to be great this season. And at least 1 more needs to be good to very good. 
Really 3 of the 4 need to be plus players and be impactful to at least an above average way, if you catch my drift.
 

This is where coaching comes in.

Ice time.

Chemistry.

Combinations.

Match ups.

Timing.

 


And there’s a major acquisition coming. But it isn’t coming before December or January.

Probably not until deadline time.

 

My feeling is this.

 

LaFreniere needs to play 18 minutes a night this year. 
Move him. Shuffle him. Whatever.

But please… Play him.

 

Chytil and Kakko both need 16+
 

Just play them. 
 


 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Capt said:

His cap hit being a detriment to the team is based in fact.  Buch, Vatrano, one of Copp or Strome,  have all moved on because there is no more cap space to keep them.  Not to mention the players they are not able to bring in because again they have no cap space.  They are paper thin at center and rw.  They are going with two rookies on the blue line..  They have a question mark back up goalie.  The team has on paper got worse.  That isn't because of anything other than cap space.

 

 

This argument about Panarin's worth at the time of his signing is not the point here.  If anyone is arguing that you cannot call someone overpaid because at the time he signed it was the going rate, than nobody is ever going to be "overpaid". Bobby Holik, Scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Chris Kreider, Jacob Trouba all got paid what the market dictated at the time.  Circumstances over the life of the contract always change.  Some players become a bargain.  The only thing that matters when constructing a roster is what is the value today of a player.  In my view I'd rather $11.6M to spend on other players.  Of course moving him would bring back contracts.  For example though:

Panarin to Vancouver $11.6M out

Miller to NY (signed with a new contract at $8.5M a year) plus Hollander a right wing at $1M

 

The Rangers add two top 6 forwards, a center and right wing at a savings of $2.1M

Now instead of signing Trochek the Rangers could target Kadri, Schifiele, PLD, Larkin as their number 2 center by putting Miller on the wing. (using the $2M in savings and Trochecks $5.5M)

Say they just signed Kadri to make it easy.  Or even 

 

Kreider. Zib  Hollander

Laf Kadri Miller

Kravtsov Chytil Kakko

Goodrow Carpenter Blais

 

In my opinion that is a much deeper better team.  They could also just not spend the money (Kadri) and save the space for next summer.  Miller moves to center and Blais up to the top 6.  Leaving a camp competition for the final forward spot.

 


Panarin/Trocheck > Miller/Kadri. It’s not close to me either.
 

The Rangers should have no interest in Hoglander.

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3 hours ago, RangersIn7 said:

 

 

They don’t want to load up the top line. They want to split Panarin and Zib for matchup purposes. That’s their concept in this. They’ve proven it for 3 seasons now. Even if it hasn’t manifested itself in the way of even strength offense, it’s what they believe in.

 

Plus, they don’t want to move Panarin. He’s been incredibly productive on the LW and they’re understandably reluctant to potentially mess with that. 
 

 

Yes - I get that. And its worked well for the most part.

 

But if Lafreniere is ready to take the next step now, he could help carry a strong second line.

 

Though I'd be happy if they put out 3 lines all as a scoring threat. 

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5 hours ago, Capt said:

His cap hit being a detriment to the team is based in fact.  Buch, Vatrano, one of Copp or Strome,  have all moved on because there is no more cap space to keep them.  Not to mention the players they are not able to bring in because again they have no cap space.  They are paper thin at center and rw.  They are going with two rookies on the blue line..  They have a question mark back up goalie.  The team has on paper got worse.  That isn't because of anything other than cap space.

 

 

This argument about Panarin's worth at the time of his signing is not the point here.  If anyone is arguing that you cannot call someone overpaid because at the time he signed it was the going rate, than nobody is ever going to be "overpaid". Bobby Holik, Scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Chris Kreider, Jacob Trouba all got paid what the market dictated at the time.  Circumstances over the life of the contract always change.  Some players become a bargain.  The only thing that matters when constructing a roster is what is the value today of a player.  In my view I'd rather $11.6M to spend on other players.  Of course moving him would bring back contracts.  For example though:

Panarin to Vancouver $11.6M out

Miller to NY (signed with a new contract at $8.5M a year) plus Hollander a right wing at $1M

 

The Rangers add two top 6 forwards, a center and right wing at a savings of $2.1M

Now instead of signing Trochek the Rangers could target Kadri, Schifiele, PLD, Larkin as their number 2 center by putting Miller on the wing. (using the $2M in savings and Trochecks $5.5M)

Say they just signed Kadri to make it easy.  Or even 

 

Kreider. Zib  Hollander

Laf Kadri Miller

Kravtsov Chytil Kakko

Goodrow Carpenter Blais

 

In my opinion that is a much deeper better team.  They could also just not spend the money (Kadri) and save the space for next summer.  Miller moves to center and Blais up to the top 6.  Leaving a camp competition for the final forward spot.

 

Lol you’re still arguing this false argument?  From the day he signed here, point totals in the NHL

1. McDavid

2. Draisaitl 

3. Huberdeau

4. Matthews

5. Panarin

 

His cap hit is not factually a detriment to the team. Stop. It’s based purely on fiction because you have an axe to grind with him. He shit the bed this playoff year and his version of “shitting the bed” meant he finished 14th in playoff points. Kadri finished 19th in 4 less games, Stamkos finished 12th in 3 more games. During the regular season he’s elite. He will eventually figure it out and be elite in the playoffs too. 
 

paper thin at center? 
Ziby

Trocheck

Chytil 

 

   That is far from paper thin. I love how your argument is to bring in Miller then expect him to sign a lowball offer at 8.5m. Why is he signing that low when all indications are he is looking at closer to 10m? Because Gaudreau left millions on the table? Thry all are doing that now? 
 

You have to get off this idea that Panarin is hindering this team. He’s not. Even if he somehow had a cap hit on 1m less which would actually make him underpaid, it’s the difference between a Kevin Rooney, not “backup goalie, two rookies on D, a paper thin RW p” and whatever other stuff you want to blame the dude for. 


 

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Honestly, the worst thing you can say about Panarin's contract is that it was supposed to be a better deal than it is, but COVID happened.  If you want to lament the players we lost because of cap space, lament the loss of consistent cap increases, not the contract you gave to one of the 5 best players in the NHL that he's actually somehow living up to.

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1 hour ago, Keirik said:

Lol you’re still arguing this false argument?  From the day he signed here, point totals in the NHL

1. McDavid

2. Draisaitl 

3. Huberdeau

4. Matthews

5. Panarin

 

His cap hit is not factually a detriment to the team. Stop. It’s based purely on fiction because you have an axe to grind with him. He shit the bed this playoff year and his version of “shitting the bed” meant he finished 14th in playoff points. Kadri finished 19th in 4 less games, Stamkos finished 12th in 3 more games. During the regular season he’s elite. He will eventually figure it out and be elite in the playoffs too. 
 

paper thin at center? 
Ziby

Trocheck

Chytil 

 

   That is far from paper thin. I love how your argument is to bring in Miller then expect him to sign a lowball offer at 8.5m. Why is he signing that low when all indications are he is looking at closer to 10m? Because Gaudreau left millions on the table? Thry all are doing that now? 
 

You have to get off this idea that Panarin is hindering this team. He’s not. Even if he somehow had a cap hit on 1m less which would actually make him underpaid, it’s the difference between a Kevin Rooney, not “backup goalie, two rookies on D, a paper thin RW p” and whatever other stuff you want to blame the dude for. 


 

To add to this..."If anyone is arguing that you cannot call someone overpaid because at the time he signed it was the going rate, than nobody is ever going to be "overpaid". Bobby Holik, Scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Chris Kreider, Jacob Trouba all got paid what the market dictated at the time."

 

Sure, list players who signed here and then DIDN'T perform .... and try to compare them to Panarin? Come on.

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1 hour ago, LindG1000 said:

Honestly, the worst thing you can say about Panarin's contract is that it was supposed to be a better deal than it is, but COVID happened.  If you want to lament the players we lost because of cap space, lament the loss of consistent cap increases, not the contract you gave to one of the 5 best players in the NHL that he's actually somehow living up to.

Yup. Exactly this. I’m not even understanding how this is being ignored. Plus there is the other fact that even if COVID’s impact on cap increases now make it a shame he couldn’t have signed for 1m less, attempting to trade one of the most successful signings in Rangers history only creates another unknown. As @Petehas previously said, there are a whole list of signings here that underperformed. Panarin in NY has been a 1.34ppg player which is in the top 5 in the league. 3 years prior to being here Bread was 1.00 ppg. That’s a huge successful jump here on broadway. 

31 minutes ago, Pete said:

To add to this..."If anyone is arguing that you cannot call someone overpaid because at the time he signed it was the going rate, than nobody is ever going to be "overpaid". Bobby Holik, Scott Gomez, Chris Drury, Chris Kreider, Jacob Trouba all got paid what the market dictated at the time."

 

Sure, list players who signed here and then DIDN'T perform .... and try to compare them to Panarin? Come on.

I noticed that too lol 

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Just for you @Capt , the most realistic landing spot I see for Panarin right now is Anaheim where Strome just signed. They have plenty of cap space and there's reason enough for Panarin to waive if they are that good of friends.

 

To Calgary: lots of stuff from Anaheim (picks, a top prospect or two, etc)

To Anaheim: Artemi Panarin

To NYR: Tkachuk (re-signed, probably in the 8 years x $10M neighborhood)

 

Anaheim going out and making a splash for Strome and Vatrano may make them interested in surrounding Terry/Zegras with more. It's a drastic step forward for them much like the Rangers took by signing Panarin initially.

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2 hours ago, rmc51 said:

Just for you @Capt , the most realistic landing spot I see for Panarin right now is Anaheim where Strome just signed. They have plenty of cap space and there's reason enough for Panarin to waive if they are that good of friends.

 

To Calgary: lots of stuff from Anaheim (picks, a top prospect or two, etc)

To Anaheim: Artemi Panarin

To NYR: Tkachuk (re-signed, probably in the 8 years x $10M neighborhood)

 

Anaheim going out and making a splash for Strome and Vatrano may make them interested in surrounding Terry/Zegras with more. It's a drastic step forward for them much like the Rangers took by signing Panarin initially.

I just came.

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3 hours ago, Long live the King said:

Laf - Trocheck - Tkachuk would be so miserable to play against.

Shit I read that as Panarin and was like nah, they don’t click

 

but yeah, that line would be nasty, even when not producing [as much as we’d want]. Not sure they outproduce the Panarin line of the last few seasons 

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17 hours ago, Keirik said:

Lol you’re still arguing this false argument?  From the day he signed here, point totals in the NHL

1. McDavid

2. Draisaitl 

3. Huberdeau

4. Matthews

5. Panarin

 

His cap hit is not factually a detriment to the team. Stop. It’s based purely on fiction because you have an axe to grind with him. He shit the bed this playoff year and his version of “shitting the bed” meant he finished 14th in playoff points. Kadri finished 19th in 4 less games, Stamkos finished 12th in 3 more games. During the regular season he’s elite. He will eventually figure it out and be elite in the playoffs too. 
 

paper thin at center? 
Ziby

Trocheck

Chytil 

 

   That is far from paper thin. I love how your argument is to bring in Miller then expect him to sign a lowball offer at 8.5m. Why is he signing that low when all indications are he is looking at closer to 10m? Because Gaudreau left millions on the table? Thry all are doing that now? 
 

You have to get off this idea that Panarin is hindering this team. He’s not. Even if he somehow had a cap hit on 1m less which would actually make him underpaid, it’s the difference between a Kevin Rooney, not “backup goalie, two rookies on D, a paper thin RW p” and whatever other stuff you want to blame the dude for. 


 

Why don't you go back and read one of your 100 posts from playoff time when you rightly described his performance?  Then maybe you will Stop.  Points don't mean everything and having arguments with anybody who thinks because he scored 14 points that he was anything other than a fucking disaster in the playoffs and yes a detriment to the team in the playoffs is a waste of time.  

 

Of the 5 players you listed the only players on that list I would give Panarin's contract is Matthews and McDavid.   

 

It's not being ignored that COVID happened.  No shit it happened.  It's why the market changed.  I'm not arguing that when he signed it was fair market value.  I'm arguing that because the market changed he's now overpaid.  I'm not arguing that his play is hurting the team I'm arguing that taking 20% of the cap just on his salary is a detriment to the team.  

 

I love how Pete left out Kreider and Trouba in my discussion of players who are overpaid.  I don't think Kreider is at all.  I think Trouba could be argued easily that he is not.  Yet the thought on this board when they signed and since is that they are, which is why I listed them.  However there are some disingenuous people here, mainly one, that like to needlessly make every conversation toxic. " I love how you do this". Well I listed Trouba and Kreider in that same list.  Kreider who just scored 52 goals.  Yet it's completely ignored.  The thread needs to be closed apparently?  Why?  Can't you just not participate in the thread?  I went away for days only to come back and read the high drama club cry about how this thread continues. You girls are unbelievable.  You guys don't want to discuss and you want me to stop then let it die.  

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Your entire point is an overreaction to one poor playoff run. The good really fades out with a "what have you done for me lately" after a poor 20 games. He still has 44 points in 50 playoff games. He also had an injured Strome and a marshmallow Copp on his line. Teams knew to go after him and neutralize him. Hopefully with Trocheck and a different RW, there will be more threats on the line and more physicality which opens up space. 

 

Wait wait wait. Panarin is overpaid but Trouba isn't? Your perspective isn't rooted in reality.

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To go further on the Trouba comment:

 

Trouba's cap hit is 15th among defensemen. He makes more than Thomas Chabot, Quinn Hughes, Jared Spurgeon, Aaron Ekblad, McDonagh, Parayko, Lindholm, Morrissey, and a slew of others.

 

Now there's a few things. Either you think the context of the signing made sense at the time. If so, how does that not apply to Panarin's deal as well? You could think that his playoff performance warranted this based on his edge and physicality. Did you watch the games? He was a liability and lost us at least one game, which would put him in the same box as Panarin.

 

So please let us know which it is, and why that does not apply to your thinking on Panarin? You think we could save $1-2 mil on Panarin's contract. Why not the same for Trouba's?

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