GDT 2021-22 NHL Trade Deadline: All in, Bay Bay!

[BrooksBurner]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

It doesn't ruffle my feathers, it's a dumb argument. "The" discussion wasn't Strome vs Buch, your argument was Strome vs Buch because it's your personal campaign.

 

I won't bother dissecting your rando attacks on Strome. You like to complain about Strome when he's slumping, but most people know the difference between a good player having a bad stretch and a bad player, doesn't seem like you do.

 

Your argument for keeping Buch for one year has nothing to do with Strome because they could have afforded both this year. But they made the choice they made because they had RW depth at the time and the still don't have top 6 center depth.

 

If you were able to look at this objectively, and throw in your penchant for hindsight knowing what we know now, the best move for the team (not your personal agenda) would have been jettison Chytil, Gauthier, don't sign Nemeth to a long term deal, and keep Barron as either 3C or 4C (Rooney 3C) because frankly the third line has been garbage all year, mostly because of Chytil.

 

20-93-89

10-16-One of Laf, Kakko,Goodrow

Third line is some combo of Lafreniere , Goodrow, Kakko, Barron, or Roons

Fourth line is some combo of Hunt, Reavo, Barron, Rooney, McKegg

 

That maybe makes the team better at ES.

This is quite the long rant that doesn’t really address my point that the RW depth sucks and it’s looking like they need to pay through the nose to fix it. My comment didn’t warrant playing hindsight 20/20 about the 3rd line or 3d pairing. The point was moving our 1RW earlier than needed, despite the cap space to hold for at least another year.

[Pete]

1 minute ago, rmc51 said:

This is quite the long rant that doesn’t really address my point that the RW depth sucks and it’s looking like they need to pay through the nose to fix it. My comment didn’t warrant playing hindsight 20/20 about the 3rd line or 3d pairing. The point was moving our 1RW earlier than needed, despite the cap space to hold for at least another year.

It addresses and pretty much dismantles everything in your previous 2 points.

 

Point being, they could have kept Strome and Buch for this year, because they had the cap. You're complaining today about RW depth sucking, but it didn't suck at the time of the move.

 

If you want to sit here and say in February that anyone could have or should have known that Kakko would almost regress or just be hurt all the time, Kravtsov wouldn't make the team and then run home, and Blais would be out all year, then yea that's hindsight.

 

There were 3-4 options to replace Buch on RW. There are still zero options to replace Strome.

 

So the net net is that if you move Strome rather than Buch, you're shopping for a 2C rather than a 3C right now, which ultimately will cost you more than a RW in a trade today.

 

So again, this whole narrative around they should have kept Buch instead of Strome exists in your head because that move made in July actually doesn't put us in a better position today.

[BrooksBurner]

25 minutes ago, Pete said:

It addresses and pretty much dismantles everything in your previous 2 points.

 

Point being, they could have kept Strome and Buch for this year, because they had the cap. You're complaining today about RW depth sucking, but it didn't suck at the time of the move.

 

If you want to sit here and say in February that anyone could have or should have known that Kakko would almost regress or just be hurt all the time, Kravtsov wouldn't make the team and then run home, and Blais would be out all year, then yea that's hindsight.

 

There were 3-4 options to replace Buch on RW. There are still zero options to replace Strome.

 

So the net net is that if you move Strome rather than Buch, you're shopping for a 2C rather than a 3C right now, which ultimately will cost you more than a RW in a trade today.

 

So again, this whole narrative around they should have kept Buch instead of Strome exists in your head because that move made in July actually doesn't put us in a better position today.

RW was a huge question mark without Buchnevich. I was not under the assumption that Kakko or Kravtsov would be able to handle the task of 1st line duties. Kakko had already struggled with top 6 duties of any kind. I certainly wasn’t under the assumption that relying on both in the top 6 was a smart move. That’s not hindsight. That was common sense. So it’s really just incorrect to say they had realistic options at 1RW. The top 6 options at RW were hope on line 1 and a prayer on line 2. You know the saying around here…hope isn’t a strategy.

 

So again, the wrong move was made, when it really shouldn’t have been a difficult decision in the first place. Especially when you see the # Buch was good signing for. Easily tradeable if required.

Edited February 19, 2022 by rmc51

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

RW was a huge question mark without Buchnevich. I was not under the assumption that Kakko or Kravtsov would be able to handle the task of 1st line duties. Kakko had already struggled with top 6 duties of any kind. I certainly wasn’t under the assumption that relying on both in the top 6 was a smart move. That’s not hindsight. That was common sense. So it’s really just incorrect to say they had realistic options at 1RW. The top 6 options at RW were hope on line 1 and a prayer on line 2. You know the saying around here…hope isn’t a strategy.

 

So again, the wrong move was made, when it really shouldn’t have been a difficult decision in the first place. Especially when you see the # Buch was good signing for. Easily tradeable if required.

 

It's hindsight because the team is in a prime position in the standings. 

 

At the time of the trade, working the young kids into top roles was absolutely acceptable outcome. Just like the Kreider stuff is hindsight because almost everyone saw him as a blocker to Lafreniere. 

 

If the argument was they traded Buch during the wrong summer, sure I see that.

 

If your argument is they should have kept Buch over Strome last summer then nah. Not at all.

 

I can't figure out your beef with A player who's affordable, provides production above his 4.5M price tag, and is a leader in the room. Your complaints amount to "He's not perfect". OK no one is, and if he was then they couldn't afford him anyway. At this point I chalk it up to trolling, so I'll just get back to ignoring it. 

 

 

[BrooksBurner]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

It's hindsight because the team is in a prime position in the standings. 

 

At the time of the trade, working the young kids into top roles was absolutely acceptable outcome. Just like the Kreider stuff is hindsight because almost everyone saw him as a blocker to Lafreniere. 

 

If the argument was they traded Buch during the wrong summer, sure I see that.

 

If your argument is they should have kept Buch over Strome last summer then nah. Not at all.

 

I can't figure out your beef with A player who's affordable, provides production above his 4.5M price tag, and is a leader in the room. Your complaints amount to "He's not perfect". OK no one is, and if he was then they couldn't afford him anyway. At this point I chalk it up to trolling, so I'll just get back to ignoring it. 

 

 

I made one comment in passing about Strome in my initial comment about RW depth and Buch, and it was more about praising how good Buch is. The only reason I made mention of Strome at all in that post was because I am of the opinion him and Buch are in some part linked due to future cap planning that must have gone on over the summer. Of course, you pressed me for more Strome talk and I obliged.

 

My preferred approach was to have both Buch and Strome/2C-by-trade this year and moving forward. Strome doesn’t help with the 5v5 metrics everyone talks about by the way. I’ve got no beef about Strome @ 4.5 . I’ve got beef with Strome @ 5.5-6 until he’s 34-35, which is probably where it’s headed if he re-signs here. I’m actually ok if they can extend him for the same length of what’s left in Panarin’s contract. Wouldn’t want him past that. But I also prefer a few alternatives via trade instead of doing that.

[Pete]

29 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

I made one comment in passing about Strome in my initial comment about RW depth and Buch, and it was more about praising how good Buch is. The only reason I made mention of Strome at all in that post was because I am of the opinion him and Buch are in some part linked due to future cap planning that must have gone on over the summer. Of course, you pressed me for more Strome talk and I obliged.

 

My preferred approach was to have both Buch and Strome/2C-by-trade this year and moving forward. Strome doesn’t help with the 5v5 metrics everyone talks about by the way. I’ve got no beef about Strome @ 4.5 . I’ve got beef with Strome @ 5.5-6 until he’s 34-35, which is probably where it’s headed if he re-signs here. I’m actually ok if they can extend him for the same length of what’s left in Panarin’s contract. Wouldn’t want him past that. But I also prefer a few alternatives via trade instead of doing that.

JT Miller and Schiefle are 2 guys I wouldn't mind over Strome but they're hard to acquire AND get under the cap...So we're level set there.

 

Regarding Buch, like I said...yea now it seems like an easy decision because of where we are. At the time, it wasn't so clear. Also we know moving Buch was also JDs and Gorton's plan, and Drury didn't divest from that, so the decision to move him wasn't some sort of off the rails plan. It was at the time and still is now a bad deal because of what we got back, not because of what we shipped out. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Kyrou rather than Blais and a pick came back. 

[RangersIn7]

We all know that RW depth and forward depth/play in general is a big problem and that if Buchnevich were here, it would address at least a fair portion of that.

It actually makes the situation(s) regarding what happened with Kravtsov and the injury to Blais hurt them. Not even in terms of what production would’ve been gotten there, but simply in terms of having those couple of bodies at least to use in those spots. 
 

To even discuss it though as a situation with it being somehow between or about Buch v Strome is incorrect though.

Buch getting dealt had everything to do with 1 player: Jack Eichel.

 

They either had a deal in place for him or adamantly believed they would and that it was going to happen and so they did what they felt they had to in order to prepare for that, which was not necessary at that point. 
More likely they thought, hey, let’s deal Buch to someone else now, get a useful piece or two for him, or he’s going to Buffalo as part of the Eichel deal, which we feel we can achieve without him, thus increasing their roster strength and depth by making two deals vs 1. 
It’s actually a decent strategy just a risky one that didn’t pay off. Plus I have to believe that if they dealt for Eichel, Strome was either going the other way in that deal, or going somewhere else anyway.

 

Buch not being here has everything to do with Jack Eichel. Not anything else.

[Sod16]

I'm looking for something we all agree on.  All in favor of the following proposition say "aye."

 

Be it resolved: the New York Rangers do not need at the deadline some spent warhorse defenseman in the image of Jack Johnson and Patrik Nemeth.
 

[Phil]

This seems to have already been hashed out, mostly, but for whatever it's worth, I'll say this:

 

In almost every possible scenario, I'm paying my centers over paying my wingers. That is to say, in almost any scenario you paint, I'd rather have Strome than Buchnevich (or Kakko, or Kravtsov, or Blais, or probably even Lafreniere).

[josh]

Paying? I’m not paying for position. I’m paying for contribution.

 

yeah, Strome has been great. But let’s not get carried away. 
 

but he’s been great based on the expectations of a 30-pt center. You can’t overpay, regardless.

 

[Phil]

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not comparing the value of the deals. I'm comparing the value of paying a center — an objectively harder position to play and succeed at — over paying a winger. In this case, Strome over Buch, assuming all other things are equal (like relative contract value).

 

But to put it into more exact terms, I'd rather pay Strome 5.5 for multiple years than Buchnevich the same.

[josh]

6 minutes ago, Phil said:

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not comparing the value of the deals. I'm comparing the value of paying a center — an objectively harder position to play and succeed at — over paying a winger. In this case, Strome over Buch, assuming all other things are equal (like relative contract value).

 

But to put it into more exact terms, I'd rather pay Strome 5.5 for multiple years than Buchnevich the same.

That’s if you ignore the cap and drastic overpayments of … well, everyone. Panarin, Trouba, Kreider, Zibanejad, Fox. Can’t afford a DZ. 
they have their horses. Everyone else needs to be a role players or under 4.5. And with this teams cap restrictions, they need that # even lower.

 

it’s not a player thing. It’s the cap. 
 

Kakko & Lafreniere vs keeping Strome. 
 

come on… 

[Keirik]

As I sit here watching Calgary vs Seattle I wonder why the Kraken havent pulled Yanni out of the lineup to be safe 

[josh]

23 minutes ago, Keirik said:

As I sit here watching Calgary vs Seattle I wonder why the Kraken havent pulled Yanni out of the lineup to be safe 

[Keirik]

33 minutes ago, josh said:

Negative. Not with some retention.  Feel bad for the dude. He seems to be built for a king sized meal and instead he’s eating happy meals 

[jsm7302]

6 hours ago, Keirik said:

As I sit here watching Calgary vs Seattle I wonder why the Kraken havent pulled Yanni out of the lineup to be safe 

I'm thinking he isnt going anywhere may be the reason.

[Valriera]

The more you sit on this the more you realize this is an all-in, throw whatever you have at the right player and make sure you get him situation, even if it’s overpaying. This team has everything but the third line and we’re a piece away from that. Gourde, giroux, whoever that third line player is, must be acquired at whatever cost. We have the elite players, the youth, the defense, the goalie, the special teams, the fourth line, and the cap space. A deal must be done.

[SaveByRichter35]

Kinda wish the NHL would adopt a soft cap with a luxury tax.  Would help the Rangers immensely.

[Drew a Penalty]

18 minutes ago, SaveByRichter35 said:

Kinda wish the NHL would adopt a soft cap with a luxury tax.  Would help the Rangers immensely.

 

Probably because of the disparity of having a team like the Rangers and then having a team like the Coyotes playing in a fucking college arena. Gotta keep it even so long as the league has to forcibly keep a team on life support.

[SaveByRichter35]

4 minutes ago, Drew a Penalty said:

Probably because of the disparity of having a team like the Rangers and then having a team like the Coyotes playing in a fucking college arena. Gotta keep it even so long as the league has to forcibly keep a team on life support.

Yea I know why it is the way it is.  

[BrooksBurner]

11 hours ago, Phil said:

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not comparing the value of the deals. I'm comparing the value of paying a center — an objectively harder position to play and succeed at — over paying a winger. In this case, Strome over Buch, assuming all other things are equal (like relative contract value).

 

But to put it into more exact terms, I'd rather pay Strome 5.5 for multiple years than Buchnevich the same.

I’d rather pay Buch 5.5 and play Goodrow at 2C than Strome 5.5 and play Goodrow at 2RW, because Buch is objectively a better player. Either way, we will have a guy on the second line playing above his skill level.

 

If Strome were better at two of the most important traits of being a center, faceoffs and positioning (defensive in particular), the conversation might be different. But he’s not.

[BrooksBurner]

On 2/19/2022 at 10:59 AM, Pete said:

JT Miller and Schiefle are 2 guys I wouldn't mind over Strome but they're hard to acquire AND get under the cap...So we're level set there.

 

Regarding Buch, like I said...yea now it seems like an easy decision because of where we are. At the time, it wasn't so clear. Also we know moving Buch was also JDs and Gorton's plan, and Drury didn't divest from that, so the decision to move him wasn't some sort of off the rails plan. It was at the time and still is now a bad deal because of what we got back, not because of what we shipped out. We wouldn't be having this conversation if Kyrou rather than Blais and a pick came back. 

Strome will make in the same range as what those two make on his next contract, so the cap hit is kind of moot. Hard to acquire? Certainly. But if it improves the team, top 6, 5v5 play, etc., then it’s about time you cash in some of the assets to do it. It’s expensive to spend something like 3 1st round quality + let Strome walk for nothing to ultimately go from Strome -> MS or JT, but how else are they supposed to improve the top 6 if they won’t spend any more money on the wings? Nothing changes if they keep Strome, because the wings aren’t changing. Just improving the 3rd line isn’t going to turn this team into a 5v5 juggernaut, so as it has in the past, it again comes down to how do you change the complexion of the top 6 to improve?

 

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure how much of an upgrade JT is over Strome, or if it’s enough. I’m somewhat reluctant to the idea. MS, to me, there is no question. If he can be had you pay the piper and move forward.

[josh]

God damn you Chytil.

and andersson

and Howden, Barron, Henriksson, Boo Nieves, et al 

[Pete]

31 minutes ago, rmc51 said:

Strome will make in the same range as what those two make on his next contract, so the cap hit is kind of moot. Hard to acquire? Certainly. But if it improves the team, top 6, 5v5 play, etc., then it’s about time you cash in some of the assets to do it. It’s expensive to spend something like 3 1st round quality + let Strome walk for nothing to ultimately go from Strome -> MS or JT, but how else are they supposed to improve the top 6 if they won’t spend any more money on the wings? Nothing changes if they keep Strome, because the wings aren’t changing. Just improving the 3rd line isn’t going to turn this team into a 5v5 juggernaut, so as it has in the past, it again comes down to how do you change the complexion of the top 6 to improve?

 

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure how much of an upgrade JT is over Strome, or if it’s enough. I’m somewhat reluctant to the idea. MS, to me, there is no question. If he can be had you pay the piper and move forward.

Miller is going to make $8m on his next deal. I'm holding to the idea you can get Strome for less.

 

However Miller is just harder to play against. He's Barclay Goodrow, with polish. 

[BrooksBurner]

13 minutes ago, Pete said:

Miller is going to make $8m on his next deal. I'm holding to the idea you can get Strome for less.

 

However Miller is just harder to play against. He's Barclay Goodrow, with polish. 

Agree on Miller’s next contract. He’s only really a solution through next year.

 

MS has got 2 years after this at an undervalued cap hit. That’s a bit better, and buys about the right amount of time to bridge the gap from current core to what we hope is the next core with Laf/Kakko/Miller/Schneider/etc.