jsm7302 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, LindG1000 said: It's just a broken system when the cap doesn't move up, but the moves teams are making this season just to stay compliant is really punching some holes in the logic of it. Look, the Rangers just did all of this to scrounge the 25k or whatever they need to be cap compliant when we acquire Kane on Wednesday: They traded a former 1st round pick (albeit a very broken asset at this point) for almost nothing to scrounge five days of "this guy isn't on our cap" They waived a roster player (albeit a bad one) to scrounge five days of "this guy isn't on our cap" They played one game with 11 forwards and 7 D because it would save a few grand. They played one game with 10 forwards and 5 D because they couldn't afford to have Carpenter or Schenider get injured to make the paper transactions to scrounge the money. Patrick Kane has ostensibly been a Ranger since before the Red Wings game. They can't make the trade until the cap accrues enough from those four moves, which means that Patrick Kane will have missed 3-4 games for us. Not to mention that any big trade seems to require a broker to eat salary, 2/3 of the teams in the NHL are taking advantage of some kind of LTIR exception to maintain cap compliance, and Jeannot just fetched six pieces including five draft picks almost exclusively for team control reasons. Who knows what I'm forgetting here. Meanwhile, the Coyotes can ice a roster that gets paid a total of $48m, and because of nearly $12 million in LTIR-insured deals, they're compliant? It feels like a joke. Maybe the answer is easier than trying to play cap Gymnastics. Find other talent around the league to aquire for what you can afford. The belief that one guy is going to make or break a roster is crazy in itself and really this falls to the GM's. Did any recent cup winners play this silly game? (Not tongue in cheek but legitimately asking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Heaven Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, jsm7302 said: Maybe the answer is easier than trying to play cap Gymnastics. Find other talent around the league to aquire for what you can afford. The belief that one guy is going to make or break a roster is crazy in itself and really this falls to the GM's. Did any recent cup winners play this silly game? (Not tongue in cheek but legitimately asking) Tampa Bay, Kucherov on LTIR Chicago, Toews or Kane was on LTIR Vegas has attempted LTIR the last 2 seasons Edited February 27, 2023 by Blue Heaven 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Heaven Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, jsm7302 said: Maybe the answer is easier than trying to play cap Gymnastics. Find other talent around the league to aquire for what you can afford. The belief that one guy is going to make or break a roster is crazy in itself and really this falls to the GM's. Did any recent cup winners play this silly game? (Not tongue in cheek but legitimately asking) Do you think the Rangers would have given Kreider that contract if they knew the cap was going to stay flat for 3 seasons? GMs signing these players for 6-8 years is on the assumption that the cap is going up X amount every year. Edited February 27, 2023 by Blue Heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindG1000 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 12 minutes ago, Valriera said: I get the sentiment but disagree. The salary cap has kept the nhl incredibly competitive. Would a luxury tax do the same? No it would be different. I dislike what has gone on more than most but I dint think the answer is to dismantle the cap. Could they close a few loopholes? Ya, they could, but I’d still rather have this than the nfl or whatever I can't agree with that. The NHL has the appearance of parity (which I believe is what you mean to say - that more teams are competitive in the league) because of the loser point awarded in overtime, and the NHL is not competitive (in the business sense) in no small part because the cap encourages cycles of "build, grow, compete, blow it up, rebuild" instead of encouraging consistent strength. So key markets are locked into non-competitive teams with regularity. Further, the big markets are outsized big and unable to greater contribute to the revenue-sharing agreement because of the hard cap. If the Rangers, Flyers, Leafs, Habs, Wings, Bruins, and Blackhawks want to spend 100M instead of 82, why stop them? Just make anything over 82 hurt enough that it's worth thinking twice about it. To be clear - this isn't entirely the fault of the cap - there's owner cheapness, there's contract term issues (also largely a function of the cap), there's a lack of know-how in building the league's media footprint - but the cap helps none of this. The NHL would be a far better league with a hard-floor/soft-cap/hard-cap system. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm7302 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 I feel like there are multiple prongs to be addressed including NMC's. I think this gives the players too much leverage. I feel like the most protection players should get is a limited 5-10 team trade rider which would give teams a market to move mammoth contracts. It seems like every contract for a third line player on up gets trade protection. I don't like it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindG1000 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 4 minutes ago, jsm7302 said: Maybe the answer is easier than trying to play cap Gymnastics. Find other talent around the league to aquire for what you can afford. The belief that one guy is going to make or break a roster is crazy in itself and really this falls to the GM's. Did any recent cup winners play this silly game? (Not tongue in cheek but legitimately asking) The Lightning literally put Kucherov on ice for a whole season and exploited LTIR to ice a roster that was 18m over the cap. Vegas has done similarly in recent seasons. The Knights and Oilers have played multiple games in the past few seasons shorthanded for cap reasons - the Oilers just did an 11/6 game against us. The Avs needed retention to build their team (final total cap hit was ~2.5M over cap). So, yeah, it's happening pretty much every season in some way, shape, or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 42 minutes ago, LindG1000 said: It's just a broken system when the cap doesn't move up, but the moves teams are making this season just to stay compliant is really punching some holes in the logic of it. Look, the Rangers just did all of this to scrounge the 25k or whatever they need to be cap compliant when we acquire Kane on Wednesday: They traded a former 1st round pick (albeit a very broken asset at this point) for almost nothing to scrounge five days of "this guy isn't on our cap" They waived a roster player (albeit a bad one) to scrounge five days of "this guy isn't on our cap" They played one game with 11 forwards and 7 D because it would save a few grand. They played one game with 10 forwards and 5 D because they couldn't afford to have Carpenter or Schenider get injured to make the paper transactions to scrounge the money. Patrick Kane has ostensibly been a Ranger since before the Red Wings game. They can't make the trade until the cap accrues enough from those four moves, which means that Patrick Kane will have missed 3-4 games for us. Not to mention that any big trade seems to require a broker to eat salary, 2/3 of the teams in the NHL are taking advantage of some kind of LTIR exception to maintain cap compliance, and Jeannot just fetched six pieces including five draft picks almost exclusively for team control reasons. Who knows what I'm forgetting here. Meanwhile, the Coyotes can ice a roster that gets paid a total of $48m, and because of nearly $12 million in LTIR-insured deals, they're compliant? It feels like a joke. I give Drury a lot of credit for dancing his way through this bullshit. I realize this is what they do as GM's, but it shouldn't have to come to weakening a team, and possibly putting players in jeopardy of getting injured by playing with shortened benches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 19 minutes ago, Ozzy said: I give Drury a lot of credit for dancing his way through this bullshit. I realize this is what they do as GM's, but it shouldn't have to come to weakening a team, and possibly putting players in jeopardy of getting injured by playing with shortened benches. That’s why I don’t get the people who are still openly debating whether this is a done deal or not. Do you think the Rangers would be doing all of this if it wasn’t? Kane is basically already a Ranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 Kane has been a Ranger. It's just not announced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, RichieNextel305 said: That’s why I don’t get the people who are still openly debating whether this is a done deal or not. Do you think the Rangers would be doing all of this if it wasn’t? Kane is basically already a Ranger. Kane being a Ranger has probably been the worst kept secret all season! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 I don't understand why people continue to be upset over LTIR. Teams are not going to willingly sit their best players all season, unless the guy is legitimately hurt. Do you think Vegas wants Stone off the ice? Do you think Tampa Bay wanted to go all year without their best player? Enough already, being able to get cap flexibility for somebody who's out for the season is mandatory. Hard stop. When you see the Canes putting their $4M 4th line center on LTIR, or us putting Trouba on ... Then you can say people are circumventing the cap. So far all we've seen are team's best players, which I could guarantee you if all things were equal they would rather have their best players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangersIn7 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, Pete said: I don't understand why people continue to be upset over LTIR. Teams are not going to willingly sit their best players all season, unless the guy is legitimately hurt. Do you think Vegas wants Stone off the ice? Do you think Tampa Bay wanted to go all year without their best player? Enough already, being able to get cap flexibility for somebody who's out for the season is mandatory. Hard stop. When you see the Canes putting their $4M 4th line center on LTIR, or us putting Trouba on ... Then you can say people are circumventing the cap. So far all we've seen are team's best players, which I could guarantee you if all things were equal they would rather have their best players. And people forget also the double penalty of LTIR. Once you place a player there, you lose the benefit of accruing cap space over the course of the season, due to proration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long live the King Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, Pete said: I don't understand why people continue to be upset over LTIR. Teams are not going to willingly sit their best players all season, unless the guy is legitimately hurt. Do you think Vegas wants Stone off the ice? Do you think Tampa Bay wanted to go all year without their best player? Enough already, being able to get cap flexibility for somebody who's out for the season is mandatory. Hard stop. When you see the Canes putting their $4M 4th line center on LTIR, or us putting Trouba on ... Then you can say people are circumventing the cap. So far all we've seen are team's best players, which I could guarantee you if all things were equal they would rather have their best players. I think what gets people upset, specifically with Tamps, is that Kuch was healthy before the end of the regular season season, but they couldn't activate him until the playoffs because they didn't have cap room. They should have been forced to make room for him once he was cleared to play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsm7302 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 4 minutes ago, Pete said: I don't understand why people continue to be upset over LTIR. Teams are not going to willingly sit their best players all season, unless the guy is legitimately hurt. Do you think Vegas wants Stone off the ice? Do you think Tampa Bay wanted to go all year without their best player? Enough already, being able to get cap flexibility for somebody who's out for the season is mandatory. Hard stop. When you see the Canes putting their $4M 4th line center on LTIR, or us putting Trouba on ... Then you can say people are circumventing the cap. So far all we've seen are team's best players, which I could guarantee you if all things were equal they would rather have their best players. With that said, do you think if they are nearing the end of the season and are locked into a playoff spot, they would bring back the player when ready or tell em to sit it out and keep training because come playoff time they can step in with this cap loophole and not have to waive, sell etc to the current roster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieNextel305 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 11 minutes ago, Phil said: Kane has been a Ranger. It's just not announced. I’m just shocked that by now the assets heading to Chicago hasn’t been leaked out somewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindG1000 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 6 minutes ago, Pete said: I don't understand why people continue to be upset over LTIR. Teams are not going to willingly sit their best players all season, unless the guy is legitimately hurt. Do you think Vegas wants Stone off the ice? Do you think Tampa Bay wanted to go all year without their best player? Enough already, being able to get cap flexibility for somebody who's out for the season is mandatory. Hard stop. When you see the Canes putting their $4M 4th line center on LTIR, or us putting Trouba on ... Then you can say people are circumventing the cap. So far all we've seen are team's best players, which I could guarantee you if all things were equal they would rather have their best players. I think the far bigger issue is what Arizona has done with Pronger, Weber, and Datsyuk, or what Tampa is currently doing with Seabrook, or even what the Habs are doing with Price - where these players will never hit the ice and they're not retired because they're useful cap loopholes in some capacity. The Kucherov thing isn't as enraging - you lost a real player, you deserve to be able to make amends for it - aside from that once the playoffs started, they were suddenly icing a $98m roster against an 81M cap. I'd be arguing to just let them do that anyway, but with some kind of cost penalty for every dollar over the soft cap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 40 minutes ago, LindG1000 said: I think the far bigger issue is what Arizona has done with Pronger, Weber, and Datsyuk, or what Tampa is currently doing with Seabrook, or even what the Habs are doing with Price - where these players will never hit the ice and they're not retired because they're useful cap loopholes in some capacity. The Kucherov thing isn't as enraging - you lost a real player, you deserve to be able to make amends for it - aside from that once the playoffs started, they were suddenly icing a $98m roster against an 81M cap. I'd be arguing to just let them do that anyway, but with some kind of cost penalty for every dollar over the soft cap. They're not retired because they don't want to void their contracts and lose their money. The players are OK with this setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 54 minutes ago, Long live the King said: I think what gets people upset, specifically with Tamps, is that Kuch was healthy before the end of the regular season season, but they couldn't activate him until the playoffs because they didn't have cap room. They should have been forced to make room for him once he was cleared to play. Says who? They announced in December he was going to miss the regular season, and he did. Do you think TB was excited by that news in December? Even if he was healthy 2 weeks before the playoffs, does it matter? As other have said, they were not accruing cap space with him on LTIR...So what's the point of bringing him back for a handful of games if he just so happened to beat the prediction by a week or 2? Other than fans are butt hurt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 Translation: it's done. It's been done. They just can't announce it until the moment they have the space, be it Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 So, him playing tomorrow is out. Hopefully it's done soon and he can make his Rangers debut at MSG on Thursday night vs. Ottawa. He can go up against Gauthier. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerDanger Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 I'm worried where they'll put him in the lineup. Obviously with Bread, but with Tro as the center......dunno, doesn't excite me too much. I would rather see Bread-Zib-Kane on line 1, and Kreids-Tro-Tarasenko on line 2. To me it makes a lot more sense as far as their styles, would love to just try it for a few games. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindG1000 Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 6 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: So, him playing tomorrow is out. Hopefully it's done soon and he can make his Rangers debut at MSG on Thursday night vs. Ottawa. He can go up against Gauthier. lol Our next game is Wednesday. I bet they pull the trigger first thing in the morning and he meets the team in Philly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 5 minutes ago, LindG1000 said: Our next game is Wednesday. I bet they pull the trigger first thing in the morning and he meets the team in Philly. That would be awesome if it was early and he could get there in time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpshooter Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 8 minutes ago, RangerDanger said: I'm worried where they'll put him in the lineup. Obviously with Bread, but with Tro as the center......dunno, doesn't excite me too much. I would rather see Bread-Zib-Kane on line 1, and Kreids-Tro-Tarasenko on line 2. To me it makes a lot more sense as far as their styles, would love to just try it for a few games. Gallant is going to give him eight minutes a night playing with Tyler Motte. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 9 minutes ago, LindG1000 said: Our next game is Wednesday. I bet they pull the trigger first thing in the morning and he meets the team in Philly. 3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter said: That would be awesome if it was early and he could get there in time! I'd bet he's already here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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